Kind of why I posted it here. I figure if anybody could find holes it the theory, it would be people on here. It's a hugh risk to try it for the first time in a storm and if you aren't trying it in a storm, then is it really a good test
Drogues
- Thread starter Roger Long
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Thanks for the positive comments. I like to move around a bit on the forums. Each forum has it's own character, and after you have seen the same threads thousands of times, I start looking around for a breath of fresh air. I enjoy all the forums that I've been on, but there a lot to learn from people on other forums as well. It's too easy to look at things always from the same perspective, and then I miss out.
Here's an idea I might be willing to try. First put over a mooring ball (can be carried deflated till needed and useful for all sorts of other things) sufficient to float the dogue trailing weight on a light line about equal to the length of the drogue. Tie this line to the weight and deploy the drogue. The line will be long enough to let the drogue sink properly and will just add slightly to the drogue effect trailing astern.Kind of why I posted it here. I figure if anybody could find holes it the theory, it would be people on here. It's a hugh risk to try it for the first time in a storm and if you aren't trying it in a storm, then is it really a good test
If normal retrieval proves impossible, attach just enough weight to the bridal to be sure the drogue and bridal sink. Let it go and then go around and pick up the trailing buoy. If you know the total length and course, it should be no problem to establish a way point to find it.
Bring the buoy aboard and retrieve the drogue backwards with the cones collapsed.
This, from the Pardey's web site:
We have had several folks ask if a Series Drogue could be used in place of a para-anchor. They also ask our opinion of this gear for storm usage. Though many people talk about series drogues we do not recall meeting anyone who has actually used them in storm situations. The series drogue appears to present a problem when it comes time to recover it. A few months ago we interviewed David Armstrong a New Zealand sailor who lay to a para-anchor for three days during a passage from New Zealand to Tahiti on his 40 foot race boat. Part of that report makes interesting reading before you consider adding a series drogue to your list of cruising gear.
David not only cruises on his own boat but voyages with Henk Haazan on his 50 foot steel Artic island exploration vessel Tiama. As the para-anchor recommended for a boat of this size is not only expensive but large and potentially difficult to handle, David generously offered to make up a series drogue which he felt could be used either over the stern or over the bow. The drogue consisted of more than 40 cones on 250 feet of 1-3/8” diameter line. Once at sea David and Henk decided to test this while running in winds of 20 knots. The series drogue did slow the boat down to about two knots and held her almost directly before the wind. But, as we have read before with the series drogues, retrieval was extremely difficult. “Six strong crew took almost 3 hours to retrieve it and we were totally exhausted even though there was only 20 knots of wind. I doubt a series drogue could be retrieved in 30 knots of wind.”
I still like the idea, but I would certainly try my methods in 30 knots winds. I know I can retrieve a chute in bumpy conditions, and I think I would chose a leader long enough to collect it in the same manner, by motoring up to a pick-up line. As suggested earlier in the thread, it would be necessary to transfer the connection to the bow first, since you could not turn with it on your tail (I have tried that and heaving-to with a chute - it won't work on my boat if the wind is still blowing, though other boats may be different). I would also have to rig an apex float with a reasonable length (50'?) line plus a shorter floating pick-up line. Yes, this would make the JSD run a bit closer to the surface, but I doubt it runs deeper than 50' when it has a load on it. The engineering and stresses (several thousand pounds) would force it to come pretty shallow.
Basically, I would use the same rigging as for my sea anchor and simply deploy the device the conditions called for, from bow or stern depending on the device and conditions.
One difficulty with all of these discussions is the asumption that one size fits all. Different horses for different courses. At the time I used the chute I had a light catamaran that hung to it very easily and I had a lee shore to worry about. Otherwise, I would have run-off. Different boat, different storm, different geography... different answer.
We have had several folks ask if a Series Drogue could be used in place of a para-anchor. They also ask our opinion of this gear for storm usage. Though many people talk about series drogues we do not recall meeting anyone who has actually used them in storm situations. The series drogue appears to present a problem when it comes time to recover it. A few months ago we interviewed David Armstrong a New Zealand sailor who lay to a para-anchor for three days during a passage from New Zealand to Tahiti on his 40 foot race boat. Part of that report makes interesting reading before you consider adding a series drogue to your list of cruising gear.
David not only cruises on his own boat but voyages with Henk Haazan on his 50 foot steel Artic island exploration vessel Tiama. As the para-anchor recommended for a boat of this size is not only expensive but large and potentially difficult to handle, David generously offered to make up a series drogue which he felt could be used either over the stern or over the bow. The drogue consisted of more than 40 cones on 250 feet of 1-3/8” diameter line. Once at sea David and Henk decided to test this while running in winds of 20 knots. The series drogue did slow the boat down to about two knots and held her almost directly before the wind. But, as we have read before with the series drogues, retrieval was extremely difficult. “Six strong crew took almost 3 hours to retrieve it and we were totally exhausted even though there was only 20 knots of wind. I doubt a series drogue could be retrieved in 30 knots of wind.”
I still like the idea, but I would certainly try my methods in 30 knots winds. I know I can retrieve a chute in bumpy conditions, and I think I would chose a leader long enough to collect it in the same manner, by motoring up to a pick-up line. As suggested earlier in the thread, it would be necessary to transfer the connection to the bow first, since you could not turn with it on your tail (I have tried that and heaving-to with a chute - it won't work on my boat if the wind is still blowing, though other boats may be different). I would also have to rig an apex float with a reasonable length (50'?) line plus a shorter floating pick-up line. Yes, this would make the JSD run a bit closer to the surface, but I doubt it runs deeper than 50' when it has a load on it. The engineering and stresses (several thousand pounds) would force it to come pretty shallow.
Basically, I would use the same rigging as for my sea anchor and simply deploy the device the conditions called for, from bow or stern depending on the device and conditions.
One difficulty with all of these discussions is the asumption that one size fits all. Different horses for different courses. At the time I used the chute I had a light catamaran that hung to it very easily and I had a lee shore to worry about. Otherwise, I would have run-off. Different boat, different storm, different geography... different answer.
Hi folks,
I haven't read the article for a while and see there is some discussion on retrieval of the drouge. Climbers do the same evolution using 3:1 or 4:1 blocks with a prusik on the line. I would run this through a knot passing pulley which would be on the end of the boom or elevated spot in order to dump the water. Then to a winch to either wind in or hold as I reset the prusik for another bite. Here's a link to these items, I'm sure there are many more.
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexclimbing.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/Trolleys-Knot-Passing-Pulleys.html
All U Get
I haven't read the article for a while and see there is some discussion on retrieval of the drouge. Climbers do the same evolution using 3:1 or 4:1 blocks with a prusik on the line. I would run this through a knot passing pulley which would be on the end of the boom or elevated spot in order to dump the water. Then to a winch to either wind in or hold as I reset the prusik for another bite. Here's a link to these items, I'm sure there are many more.
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexclimbing.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
http://www.rocknrescue.com/acatalog/Trolleys-Knot-Passing-Pulleys.html
All U Get
I wouldn't want to try using a retrieval line, even heavily weighted, if it ran any chance of fouling the JSD—which it would.
As for the other technique, motoring towards the drogue. Should work, but not feasible unless you've got crew. If you're single-handing, like I was, the winches and the two lines are the only way to go that I see as being feasible. Also, the trick of motoring towards the drogue in unsettled condtions would be a bit risky IMHO.
As for the other technique, motoring towards the drogue. Should work, but not feasible unless you've got crew. If you're single-handing, like I was, the winches and the two lines are the only way to go that I see as being feasible. Also, the trick of motoring towards the drogue in unsettled condtions would be a bit risky IMHO.
I would not asume a partial trip line would foul....
As for motoring up:
Single handed. Sailingdog is right; I don't think I could manage that unless it was very calm.
With help. On a cat it is easy, and I will explain. I would not speak for other boats. Release one leg of the bridle, say starboard. The boat turns to starboard and you easily motor well away from the line and chute while someone on the bow collects what line will come on board easily. Generally we would turn only the starboard engine once close, but both would be ready. He does not try to collect it all, just the slack. When you reach the pick-up line, well forward of the chute and floating (float on both ends) you grab that and haul the chute up. It is no more difficult than hauling a modest size anchor, since it has collapsed. Working on the foredeck of a cat is easy. I wouldn't try it in wild conditions, but once it is down to 20 knots it is very reasonable.
Again, different horses for different courses.
I am speaking from practice on a 1500# can and a 8000# cat.
That has not proven to be the case for parachutes. A full trip line - that I believe would be very bad with a JSD. I know an earlier poster suggested wieghting it. That would have to be proven, in my opinion.
As for motoring up:
Single handed. Sailingdog is right; I don't think I could manage that unless it was very calm.
With help. On a cat it is easy, and I will explain. I would not speak for other boats. Release one leg of the bridle, say starboard. The boat turns to starboard and you easily motor well away from the line and chute while someone on the bow collects what line will come on board easily. Generally we would turn only the starboard engine once close, but both would be ready. He does not try to collect it all, just the slack. When you reach the pick-up line, well forward of the chute and floating (float on both ends) you grab that and haul the chute up. It is no more difficult than hauling a modest size anchor, since it has collapsed. Working on the foredeck of a cat is easy. I wouldn't try it in wild conditions, but once it is down to 20 knots it is very reasonable.
Again, different horses for different courses.
I am speaking from practice on a 1500# can and a 8000# cat.
Another idea ...combination of 3 previous
Yeah...it has to have two people now that I think of it. I was thinking I could run it back to the helm and draw in the slack as I go forward but mostlikely, the cones will catch on the rollers at the bow so somebody needs to be up there and that's not a good place to be. Darn.
I have to find something that I can do by myself. Sounds like it's going to have to be winching the line going from stern to bow to winch unless I went with a partial trip line.
Maybe I can use a combination of three ideas:
1) run a line from the winch to the bow to the drogue
2) use a 4:1 mechanical advantage
3) use a battery powered drill on the winch
How: Have a block on the bow and a block at the stern. Run the line from the winch around the bow block and then around the stern block and back to the bow cleat. Attach another line on the stern block and tie it to the drogue with the rolling hitch knot. Use the drill on the winch to speed up the process of bringing in all that 4:1 line until the drogue is at the bow. Cleat off that line and then let out the 4:1 line and re-tie on the drogue at the stern and do it again. I would need some kind of wide block for the drogue to go through to keep the stern lined up correctly.
Well, I have until late spring to think about it before my next trip...maybe to Cancun this time
Yeah...it has to have two people now that I think of it. I was thinking I could run it back to the helm and draw in the slack as I go forward but mostlikely, the cones will catch on the rollers at the bow so somebody needs to be up there and that's not a good place to be. Darn.
I have to find something that I can do by myself. Sounds like it's going to have to be winching the line going from stern to bow to winch unless I went with a partial trip line.
Maybe I can use a combination of three ideas:
1) run a line from the winch to the bow to the drogue
2) use a 4:1 mechanical advantage
3) use a battery powered drill on the winch
How: Have a block on the bow and a block at the stern. Run the line from the winch around the bow block and then around the stern block and back to the bow cleat. Attach another line on the stern block and tie it to the drogue with the rolling hitch knot. Use the drill on the winch to speed up the process of bringing in all that 4:1 line until the drogue is at the bow. Cleat off that line and then let out the 4:1 line and re-tie on the drogue at the stern and do it again. I would need some kind of wide block for the drogue to go through to keep the stern lined up correctly.
Well, I have until late spring to think about it before my next trip...maybe to Cancun this time
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