Drogues

[Bill Roosa]

Not to labor the point but...

You should read the USCG report Franklin.

http://www.seriesdrogue.com/coastguardreport/droguereport.htm

The design load is a function of the boat displacement. A 7500 lb displacement boat needs 100% while a 60k lb displacement boat only needs 60%. (See size does matter:dance That works out to:
7500*1.00= 7500 lb design load
60000*0.6= 36000 lb design load

For my 20000 lb hunter the load works out to 18100 lb. This is not a sheet or anchor rode load!!!!! Those rarely go above 2000 lb max lifetime load. Imagin the whole boat being lifted by one cleat!!

 

[Franklin]

Well, considering that there isn't anything on the boat stronger then the cleats on the stern, I think I'll still hook up my bridal, which is two 5/8" dock lines, to the stern cleats. And that is part of the reason why the drogue is 300' of stretchable line....to absorb the shock load, just as my 300' of anchor rode absorbed the 8' waves pounding into the stern during the hurricane.

As reported by the people who have used it, it does not jerk the boat around. It is a smooth ride up and over the wave. The stretch line pulls them over like a rubberband when the wave gets near the boat. Then when the boat is in the trouph, the wind pressure dies down on the boat and the line gets slack until the next wave comes. The waves don't smack into the boat. Now I haven't proven this myself, but it's the claim on the maker and back up by customer reports.

 

[Warren Milberg]

My one, and (thankfully) only, experience with a series drogue was that it was easy to deploy, worked well to slow the boat down, but that it was nearly impossible to retrieve.

 

[jwieneck]

Franklin, Have you been able to heave to with the 376? I have a 1998 376 and was planning on trying learn how to heave her to this coming season.

 

[Franklin]

Franklin, Have you been able to heave to with the 376? I have a 1998 376 and was planning on trying learn how to heave her to this coming season.

Yes, you can with both sails up. If you need to reduce sail, reduce the main first because with such a small jib, you need alll you can to push it downwind.

It is also much easier if you fall off the wind, blocking the jib with the main and then release the loaded sheet and tighten the lazy sheet as much as you can to backwind it. Then turn slowly up into the wind and as the boat slows down, keep turning the wheel into the wind.

The great advantage of doing it this way is that you can get that jib much much tighter and it will not hang up on stuff on the mast like the deck light. You also don't have to tack either. And when ready to leave, just unback the jib and you continue on the same path/tack as before.

Now, this is just to backwind the jib and slow the boat down to 1.5 knots and tie off the helm. To get a perfect downwind drift, you will have to play with the main to stop that forward movement that the boat wants to do. That's the hard part...everything else is easy.

Now if you are just wanting to take a break in protected waters, it doesn't normally matter which way you drift.

But if you are trying to breakup waves before they hit the boat, then you have to get the drift right. It's the keel drifting sideways that creates the turbulance and it's the turbulance that breaks up the waves just before they hit.

Like I said before, I've done a perfect heave-to on this boat 3 out of 15 times in normal conditions. Not something I would want to bank on in breaking waves, but it is great though to get a rest before the bad part of the storm hits and that is when you need to rest. I do recongize that I need to work on this more so I can stay heave-to longer before having to try another technique.

 

[newly anonymous]

alternative technique

It is also much easier if you fall off the wind, blocking the jib with the main and then release the loaded sheet and tighten the lazy sheet as much as you can to backwind it. Then turn slowly up into the wind and as the boat slows down, keep turning the wheel into the wind.

It took me a while to figure out how to get my Hunter to stop wanting to sail. First, make certain the main isn't overpowered. Then, pinch up to weather to about 20 degrees off the wind and sheet the jib in tightly. Once the boat has slowed to about two knots STW, tack over and release the main traveler while keeping the jib backed on the new tack. Once you've completed the tack bring the helm hard alee, lock it, and then control the boat with the traveler. In other words, use the traveler to get the angle right.

 

[Ross]

When you drop a large heavy load on parachutesoften times several are used rather than one very large chute. Would deploying several moderate size cones each with its own bridle just result in a terrible tangle or could it be better than a series drogue? Could a series drogue be deployed off the port or starboard bow a la Pardey with the same effect as a single parachute .

 

[Franklin]

The maker is very assertive in making sure I understood that I do not deploy it off the bow. He didn't say why except that it wasn't designed for that. Besides, you don't want to because you may break your rudder and chafe through the lines because of the swing....and who wants to go to the bow in those conditions with something you are worried about catching wind and yanking you off the deck.

I see Roger's point where he is worried about the space, but I'm sure he has more storage space then I do (Hunters don't have much storage space....especially lazorett space). Mine fits into my smallest lazoret and only takes up 1/4 of it. The bag is compressed to about 8x10x20. As others said, you can buy the kit for only $700 and do the work yourself or buy just the cones for a couple hundred and you get the line yourself. Me, I paid for them to do the whole thing as I didn't want to take the chance of messing it up. I would never know I did until it was too late and that extra $500 didn't mean that much to me. After seeing it though, I realized it's not complicated at all, just time consumming.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Heaving to

is a lot easier if you sail close hauled and then tack without releasing the jib sheet than trying to haul the lazy sheet around.

 

[Ross]

is a lot easier if you sail close hauled and then tack without releasing the jib sheet than trying to haul the lazy sheet around.

I thought that was how you were supposed to heave to. By the time you need to you should have shortened sail anyhow.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Ros, I was referring to

reply #65 and the technique expressed therein.

 

[Franklin]

is a lot easier if you sail close hauled and then tack without releasing the jib sheet than trying to haul the lazy sheet around.

Stu...I don't think you understood my post. You first head downwind and cover the headsail with the main so both sheets are slack so it's a lot easier then you think (try it sometime...you will be amazed at how easy it is). You can get the headsail backwinded much tigher if you do this. This is very important on fractional rigs with small jibs as we need to get the jib very tight to cover as much of the main as possible. With mast head rigs and big headsails, it's much easier to cover main when backwinded.

 

[Franklin]

Check out the section "Heaving to sailing off the wind" from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaving_to).

 

[dmc]

Thanks to all

for the discussion and the related links. I found this discussion very educational and I find sailing education as much fun, as it is necessary.

Peace

There is nothing as much fun as merely messing about upon boats.
Mark Twain

 

[sailingdog]

Having done a fair bit of research into this, including speaking with Don Jordan several times, I would recommend the JSD, rather than a parachute-type sea anchor. A sea anchor, by definition, will impose far greater shock loads on the boat. It can, if not deployed properly fail to open or foul itself on the trip line, which most parachute sea anchors have. Also, the points about the boat still wanting to horse around while on a sea anchor deployed off the bow is still a very valid one.

The JSD, has a few attributes that make is much better for the boat and the crew, especially in a survival-storm situation. First, the long length and small cones allow the JSD to gradually load up as the slack is taken out of the series drogue's rode. This means that the shock loads are much lower—reducing the chances of damage to the boat's hardware. Second, the boat is oriented stern to the wind, which makes it less likely to horse around—this is especially true of modern fin keel designs. Third, the JSD is designed to be a "fire-and-forget" device of last resort—giving the crew a chance to rest in relative safety. And finally, since it is deployed off the stern of the boat, does NOT REQUIRE someone to go forward to deploy it in storm conditions, as most parachute anchors would.

The main problem with the JSD is retrieval. It is a bear to retreive unless you're in dead calm conditions. To retrieve it, I recommend having two long lines that are lead forward to snatch blocks near the bow, that are long enough to come back to the stern of the boat and reach the winches. Tie one line to the JSD rode, and use the winch to pull that line all the way to the bow, retreiving about a boat length of drogue. Then tie the second line to the drogue and do the same. Then untie the first line and repeat. By using two long lines and retreiving nearly a boat length at a time, you can reduce the amount of effort and time it takes to retreive the drogue. If you have two people aboard, one can be untying the lines at the bow and running them back to the cockpit, while the other is winching.

BTW, the JSD really needs to have its own set of "chainplates" added to the boat for it to fasten to, as most cleats aren't really up to the task IMHO. When making a bluewater passage, the drogue should be stored, with the bridle attached to the chainplates, in a bag or locker near the stern of the boat—ready to deploy.

I have used a JSD and have practiced deploying and retrieving it on several boats, including my own. They're bulky and a PITA to retreive, but by all accounts, including some from friends of mine—they're worth it in a bad storm.

 

[Roger Long]

BTW, the JSD really needs to have its own set of "chainplates" added to the boat for it to fasten to, as most cleats aren't really up to the task IMHO.

This is where those full length aluminum toe rails many boats have come in handy. I plan to shackle my drogue bridle to the second or third hole from the stern with the last holes being chafing gear fairleads arranged so that even failure of the primary attachement will bring the remains of the shackle up against the chafing gear. I don't think anything is going to pull those full length rails off the boat.

 

[Todd Smith]

Roger,

Maybe you can use a few feet of something that can't chafe ( steel cable or chain) and attach that to the toe rail.

These people seem to have a good chainplate system for the drogue.
http://www.morganscloud.com/indepth/inhwpart2.html#droguelaunch

Another point about the JSD, it seems to require a good strong hatch and doors, in case a strong sea hits from astearn. You don't want the hatch to be stove in.

Todd

 

[sailingdog]

Todd—

Jordan's research and all the anecdotal evidence seems to point to the risk of being pooped severely, to the point of damage, as being very, very remote. I think it has a lot to do with the inherent "give" in the JSD's design. Unlike a parachute sea anchor, the JSD tends to give until all the slack is taken out of the rode and all the cones are open and loaded.

 

[Prime Time]

Boat and Conditions?

There is nothing like first and experience! What kind of boat did you deploy the JSD from and what were the conditions?
thanks

Having done a fair bit of research into this, including speaking with Don Jordan several times, I would recommend the JSD, rather than a parachute-type sea anchor. A sea anchor, by definition, will impose far greater shock loads on the boat. It can, if not deployed properly fail to open or foul itself on the trip line, which most parachute sea anchors have. Also, the points about the boat still wanting to horse around while on a sea anchor deployed off the bow is still a very valid one.

The JSD, has a few attributes that make is much better for the boat and the crew, especially in a survival-storm situation. First, the long length and small cones allow the JSD to gradually load up as the slack is taken out of the series drogue's rode. This means that the shock loads are much lower—reducing the chances of damage to the boat's hardware. Second, the boat is oriented stern to the wind, which makes it less likely to horse around—this is especially true of modern fin keel designs. Third, the JSD is designed to be a "fire-and-forget" device of last resort—giving the crew a chance to rest in relative safety. And finally, since it is deployed off the stern of the boat, does NOT REQUIRE someone to go forward to deploy it in storm conditions, as most parachute anchors would.

The main problem with the JSD is retrieval. It is a bear to retreive unless you're in dead calm conditions. To retrieve it, I recommend having two long lines that are lead forward to snatch blocks near the bow, that are long enough to come back to the stern of the boat and reach the winches. Tie one line to the JSD rode, and use the winch to pull that line all the way to the bow, retreiving about a boat length of drogue. Then tie the second line to the drogue and do the same. Then untie the first line and repeat. By using two long lines and retreiving nearly a boat length at a time, you can reduce the amount of effort and time it takes to retreive the drogue. If you have two people aboard, one can be untying the lines at the bow and running them back to the cockpit, while the other is winching.

BTW, the JSD really needs to have its own set of "chainplates" added to the boat for it to fasten to, as most cleats aren't really up to the task IMHO. When making a bluewater passage, the drogue should be stored, with the bridle attached to the chainplates, in a bag or locker near the stern of the boat—ready to deploy.

I have used a JSD and have practiced deploying and retrieving it on several boats, including my own. They're bulky and a PITA to retreive, but by all accounts, including some from friends of mine—they're worth it in a bad storm.

 

[Todd Smith]

Dog (can I call you dog ?)

Damage to the hull, deckhouse or other robust structure is unlikely. Damage to flimsy drop in hatch boards, not so unlikely. Even if there was no damage, I could imagine a lot of water getting past the typical hatch board arrangement. Just having them dislodged and washed overboard could make for some uncomfortable moments.

Todd