That's about 3 1/2 times the drag area of the recommended Series Drogue so you would have to carry both kinds of gear to have both options.
Drogues
- Thread starter Roger Long
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I'd recommend
"Surviving the Storm". A compilation of several hundred sailors and boats which have encountered storm force and above conditions.
BTW they (the book is at the boat and I can't remember the name of the author but he is well known) do not recommend a bow deployed sea anchor no mater the configuration.
What I gleaned from the book was:
Learn to read weather reports and avoid the storms
Learn the weather cycles and avoid the storms
Either run with the wind or beat into it in breaking seas
Heave-to only in non-breaking seas
"Surviving the Storm". A compilation of several hundred sailors and boats which have encountered storm force and above conditions.
BTW they (the book is at the boat and I can't remember the name of the author but he is well known) do not recommend a bow deployed sea anchor no mater the configuration.
What I gleaned from the book was:
Learn to read weather reports and avoid the storms
Learn the weather cycles and avoid the storms
Either run with the wind or beat into it in breaking seas
Heave-to only in non-breaking seas
That confirms my impression that Pardey's are somewhat outliers on this subject. I have no doubt that their methods have worked for them and others however, this is a very fuzzy subject due to the non-repeatability of experience. If you look at Hiscock's experience, you can go seven times around the world and never need any of this gear.
The bow deployed sea anchor appears to require quite a bit more prior experimenting, experience, and foredeck handling than a drogue. Failure mode is also an issue. Loss of the bow deployed sea anchor would leave you suddenly going backwards, then broadside, then probably downwind under bare poles, possibly without a rudder. Breakage of one bridle component would leave you deployed directly by the bow or sideways. No failure seems to lead to a pretty outcome.
Breakage of the stern drogue will put you in a situation that has worked for many sailors, going fast down wind. You might have to jump to it and start steering but your immediate options seem less threatening to me.
Bill, then obviously there are different opinions about the subject. That is no surprise and the Pardeys actually discuss this fact quite extensively to illustrate why that happens and why there are good reasons (and practical experiences to support it) to use heave-to in preference to both running, beating, lying ahull and anything else people come up with. In 30 years of cruising, the Pardeys have had structural damage and roll-over only twice. In both cases when they were running, while much worse conditions never caused any damage or problem at all when hove-to.
Get me right.... I am not here to convince you or anybody else what to do in heavy weather. That is your choice and your responsibility. Just be aware that for 20 bucks you get access to a wealth of experience, research on the subject (with references) and an analysis of the various situations that is much more than just isolated cases.
I also do whatever I can to avoid the heavy weather, but if it still hits, I know what my choice is. Heaving-to will in most cases NOT require a drogue or a sea anchor (or they really call it para-anchor) and can be set up very quickly and easily. The para-anchor on an anchor road and a bridle is for the real extreme cases only. I don't want to get into a match about my expert being better than your expert. Just actually read the book before making up your mind.
Get me right.... I am not here to convince you or anybody else what to do in heavy weather. That is your choice and your responsibility. Just be aware that for 20 bucks you get access to a wealth of experience, research on the subject (with references) and an analysis of the various situations that is much more than just isolated cases.
I also do whatever I can to avoid the heavy weather, but if it still hits, I know what my choice is. Heaving-to will in most cases NOT require a drogue or a sea anchor (or they really call it para-anchor) and can be set up very quickly and easily. The para-anchor on an anchor road and a bridle is for the real extreme cases only. I don't want to get into a match about my expert being better than your expert. Just actually read the book before making up your mind.
Roger,
just be aware that many sailboats will heave-to very well with a triple-reefed main (or a try-sail), with or without a small headsail, without any para-anchor, drifting straight downwind with the bow 45-50 degrees off the wind at 1-1.5 knots. No failures, no stress, relative peace and quiet down below, breakers passing forward and astern of the boat while the crew are waiting it out. How simple is that?
just be aware that many sailboats will heave-to very well with a triple-reefed main (or a try-sail), with or without a small headsail, without any para-anchor, drifting straight downwind with the bow 45-50 degrees off the wind at 1-1.5 knots. No failures, no stress, relative peace and quiet down below, breakers passing forward and astern of the boat while the crew are waiting it out. How simple is that?
Hi wonderfull topic. I have had experience using both series and parachute drogues in cyclones and in the southern ocean and would wellcome any questions.
Not my boat...
As I said before, it is very difficult in normal conditions to get my boat to drift downwind with both sails. I've actually complished it about 3 out of 15 times (sometimes I tried really hard to get it right and sometimes I didn't care). Also as I said before, many may not know that they are actually going forward as it's very hard to tell. Only way to tell is wait a while and then check the GPS track or...watch for the turbulance in the water. If it's not directly sideways, it's not going to break up the waves for ya.
The thing is, Lin and Larry don't cruise on a light, fin keel, tall fractional rig boat like my Hunter 376. Masthead full keel boats are a lot easier to heave-to on like what Lin and Larry use.
My boat will go forward about 1.5 knots when heave-to without a headsail every time.
As I said before, it is very difficult in normal conditions to get my boat to drift downwind with both sails. I've actually complished it about 3 out of 15 times (sometimes I tried really hard to get it right and sometimes I didn't care). Also as I said before, many may not know that they are actually going forward as it's very hard to tell. Only way to tell is wait a while and then check the GPS track or...watch for the turbulance in the water. If it's not directly sideways, it's not going to break up the waves for ya.
The thing is, Lin and Larry don't cruise on a light, fin keel, tall fractional rig boat like my Hunter 376. Masthead full keel boats are a lot easier to heave-to on like what Lin and Larry use.
I'm quite aware of that, the first half of my professional life having been primarily focused on sailing vessels and I have hove to myself.
The addition of a sea anchor, as I see it, is to provide a counter force to capsizing wave dynamics when seas get larger and to slow the drift when obstructions or desire to minimize progress lost become factors.
It's a fasinating subject because the data is so murky and the sum of all of it isn't conclusive. Wind speed and wave height are only part of the equation. Factors like wave period, cross swells, wind changes, time the wind has maintained the same direction, current, and hull configuration can be equally important in wether there is a roll over danger. Even then, the danger isn't equally distributed. It's like being struck by ships. You could be out in heavy traffic and not be run down and then be struck by the only ship within 1000 miles.
I still have a very open mind on this and more questions than positons. The Pardey's evidently only were rolled when running. It could be that they were running because the factors other than just wind speed and wave height told them that there was a roll over danger. Maybe they got rolled because of the conditions and not the tactics.
Later, they faced stronger winds and larger seas hove to with the sea anchor. The conditions still could have been less threatening due to the other wave dynamic factors or maybe they were just lucky.
My understanding of wave dynamics causes me to think that the higher roll over threat levels are best handled with stern drogues. Unless you are going places like the southern ocean, though, you are more likely to encounter conditions that can equally well be dealt with in a bow on attitude whether with or without drogue.
The stern drogue seems to require less prior practice and be more likely to work. If conditions do escalate beyond what is expected you'll already be in the safest configuration as opposed to being faced with making an attitude change working on deck.
If I do start making passages, I will carry a drogue but expect that I would heave to more than I would use it. Once I felt that I needed to stream something, I would probably go right to the series drogue unless lee shore was an issue.
That's the way it looks to me now. I'm here for insights that might change my mind.
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I'm really looking forward to what you have to say. It's too late right now for specific questions but I would be very interested in how my analysis a post or two up sounds to you after working with both kinds of gear.
Another reason I have my drogue. If I loose my rudder in nasty weather, I couldn't heave-to. I'd have to call for help and that may have to be the EPIRB. I don't want to have to do that, so I can now throw out the drogue and wait out the bad weather and then try to rig up something to get to shore. No way would I try rigging something up in nasty seas.
I have four questions for ya:
1) what were the conditions when you used them (wind speed, wave height, breaking or not, visability)?
2) How fast did you drift on each?
3) when using the series drogue, did you get pooped or waves smacking the stern?
4) which did you like better after using both?
a completely different analysis.
Perhaps we should be talking economics here rather than performance.
For my boat's displacement (15 tons) the charts suggest that I use a Jordan Series Drogue with 130 cones. This prices out at about $1,500, depending on manufacturer. What this means is that, as much as I'd like to outfit my boat with one, it's not going to make it to the list of necessary purchases anytime soon.
If I could get the same drogue effect out of a series drogue with 13 larger cones, and if building such a device could reduce the price somewhere into the neighborhood of $500, I'd probably purchase one in a flash.
A lot of these considerations come down to economics. We all know that we ought to have an emergency rudder for offshore passages, but how many of us have actually purchased one? And faced with the choice between an emergency rudder and a series drogue, each of which cost about the same amount, which one should be purchased first? (I've already installed an emergency rudder by the way, but not a series drogue.)
Anyway, if the addition of fewer, larger cones as Roger suggests would bring down the price, even at the cost of a slight loss of performance, I'd be more likely to add one to my inventory.
Perhaps we should be talking economics here rather than performance.
For my boat's displacement (15 tons) the charts suggest that I use a Jordan Series Drogue with 130 cones. This prices out at about $1,500, depending on manufacturer. What this means is that, as much as I'd like to outfit my boat with one, it's not going to make it to the list of necessary purchases anytime soon.
If I could get the same drogue effect out of a series drogue with 13 larger cones, and if building such a device could reduce the price somewhere into the neighborhood of $500, I'd probably purchase one in a flash.
A lot of these considerations come down to economics. We all know that we ought to have an emergency rudder for offshore passages, but how many of us have actually purchased one? And faced with the choice between an emergency rudder and a series drogue, each of which cost about the same amount, which one should be purchased first? (I've already installed an emergency rudder by the way, but not a series drogue.)
Anyway, if the addition of fewer, larger cones as Roger suggests would bring down the price, even at the cost of a slight loss of performance, I'd be more likely to add one to my inventory.
The biggest drawback to the LCCSD (Low Cone Count Series Drogue) I see at this point is handling and recovery. Deployment shouldn't be significantly more difficult. Considering how often you would be likely to use it, recovery at a $500 price point might best be done with a quick knife swipe if there was a compelling need to get underway again.
The LCCSD may not be significantly cheaper though. If they are having those cones mass produced in China or have a special set up to whip them out, 1/3 as many larger cones might be as, or more, expensive built in a more one-off fashion. OTOH you wouldn't have to buy two 200 foot ropes in order to have addional anchor rode.
I like Franklin's point about rudder loss BTW.
It really does make me want one just for the beauty and elegance of it's design.and doesn't it just look beautiful
I just had the Sailrite catalog out to answer another post, so looked up the drogues. On pages 38&39 of the 2009 catalog are the Jordan Series Drogues. They carry "cone only" kits or "complete" kits. They also have a coast guard recommendations sidebar and deployment bags. There is a 132-cone kit for $237 ($711 complete parts). If you can sew, you can save. There is an online video. In addition to the kits of various numbers of cones, they will make the cones for $2.50 each.
Hi Roger,
Great thread. Everyones imagination lets them see a different picture of the danger. Mine is the last scenes from "Jaws" when the boat is ripped in two. My thoughts would be to use every cleat, winch, and mast in some self-equalizing manner to balance the load over the entire boat. Is there a boat that has a cable around the entire deck-hull joint to spread out this force?
I like the idea of avoiding the storm which brings up the question, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way?" This may be a new thread but, an oncoming low pressure storm...steer to port or straboard? How about when you're being overtaken...port or starboard? :hijacked: Please move it if it is.
All U Get
Great thread. Everyones imagination lets them see a different picture of the danger. Mine is the last scenes from "Jaws" when the boat is ripped in two. My thoughts would be to use every cleat, winch, and mast in some self-equalizing manner to balance the load over the entire boat. Is there a boat that has a cable around the entire deck-hull joint to spread out this force?
I like the idea of avoiding the storm which brings up the question, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way?" This may be a new thread but, an oncoming low pressure storm...steer to port or straboard? How about when you're being overtaken...port or starboard? :hijacked: Please move it if it is.
All U Get
The line alone cost more then that. On mine it starts out as 3/4" for the first 150' and then 1/2" for the next 150' and it's good quality line that I believe has a lot of stretch in it.
True, it isn't cheap and it's not for everyone, but for those who want to do 20-30 day ocean crossings, it's worth it. Me, I plan on sailing around the world so that's why I have it.
DIY series drouge
The series drogue is well within the capabilities of anybody that can seize a line. The cones are a single piece of cloth with some webbing to attach it to the rode. These are sewn directly to the rode. You can do it while watching TV.
The attachment points to the boat and the bridal are an entirely different matter. You are attempting to resist a breaking wave hitting the boat and accelerating it into the trough. Absolutely huge forces here!! If memory serves me each attachment point should be designed to something like 70% of the boat displacement. They are highly stressed points and need a generous mitten full of engineering to insure you don't tear parts off the boat. It is absolutely not a "wrap it around the stern cleat" type of arrangement. Fortunately the web has some good examples. All the ones I've looked at are pretty simple designs that are within the skills of most of us DIYers. Try
http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/designersnotes2.html
You also need to design the system to accommodate recovery.
I would think that building a drogue with fewer but larger "cones" would be more costly and certainly more likely to fail in use. I ran the BOM on this once and came out to around $300 excluding the anchor which I already have.
The series drogue is well within the capabilities of anybody that can seize a line. The cones are a single piece of cloth with some webbing to attach it to the rode. These are sewn directly to the rode. You can do it while watching TV.
The attachment points to the boat and the bridal are an entirely different matter. You are attempting to resist a breaking wave hitting the boat and accelerating it into the trough. Absolutely huge forces here!! If memory serves me each attachment point should be designed to something like 70% of the boat displacement. They are highly stressed points and need a generous mitten full of engineering to insure you don't tear parts off the boat. It is absolutely not a "wrap it around the stern cleat" type of arrangement. Fortunately the web has some good examples. All the ones I've looked at are pretty simple designs that are within the skills of most of us DIYers. Try
http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/designersnotes2.html
You also need to design the system to accommodate recovery.
I would think that building a drogue with fewer but larger "cones" would be more costly and certainly more likely to fail in use. I ran the BOM on this once and came out to around $300 excluding the anchor which I already have.
Not really an issue on most boats. Most boats have good backing plates for the cleats. My boat rode out a hurricane on anchor. The first half of it I was anchor stern to just like you would under a JSD with the bridal connected to the stern cleats. The second half it was bow to with the bridal on the bow cleats. The cleats had no problem at all handling the load but if they did, the cleat would pop out instead of the boat splitting, which isn't good, but not going to sink the boat.
The great thing about fiberglass is that it spreads the load out and it has strength in all directions, verses wood that the strength follows the grain and wood has connection points where fiberglass molds into one big unit.
So check your backing plates and the thickness of fiberglass at that point. My backing plate is about 6" x 10" of 1/2 wood fiberglassed into the hull. I believe the thickness is at least 1/2 of fiberglass but not sure. I remember looking at it and being comfortable with it. If it isn't anything like that, I'd definately upgrade the fiberglass and backing plate at the cleats.
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