Drogues

[Roger Long]

Hmmm, is that a good thing? What happens if the boat and anchor are both in a wave trough? Will the anchor help prevent a broach?

Help, yes. Prevent, who knows? It's not ideal but, for a single drag point configuration, it might be better than having the drogue surging forward in the face of a larger sea a couple crests astern and slackening the rope when the boat is plunging down a steep wave face.

It would have to be a pretty large drogue though. The Jordan swept cone area for my size boat would be equal to a 4' - 3" diameter sea anchor. The single cone is going to work fine most of the time but, when the waves get in just the right sync, the boat is going to broach, accelerate and put a sudden strain on the line, or frequently put a much larger strain on it than the Jordan. Its value is covering the maybe 5% of the time when your boat is in danger even with a single drogue out. A lot of wave combinations will go by in a storm and 5% can be a lot if it's the 5% when you roll your boat.

 

[Ross]

The series cone drogue seems to me to serve the same purpose as the tail of a kite. Do you suppose that a fishing trawl would also work?

 

[tsmwebb]

Help, yes. Prevent, who knows? It's not ideal but, for a single drag point configuration, it might be better than having the drogue surging forward in the face of a larger sea a couple crests astern and slackening the rope when the boat is plunging down a steep wave face.

Okay, but I have this vision of the drogue on short scope in/on the face of the wave astern overtaking the boat as its bow moves into the slower water on the back of the wave ahead. Now the drogue isn't helping and could even add to one's worries... I'm probably missing some important factors -- for instance, I'm not quite sure what "short scope" really means in this context, don't know if a significant amount of weight was attached to the drogue and I'm presuming a broach resulting from relatively fast water astern and slow ahead rather than one resulting for over pressing the boat...

--Tom.

 

[Roger Long]

Do you suppose that a fishing trawl would also work?

People have used anything and everything. Some swear that just heavy ropes are enough. They may well be for the tough and experienced helmsman who can stay in the cockpit and actively steer the boat at the higher speeds obtained with the lower drag.

I've heard of milk crates, spare sails, sleeping bags, hanks of rope, inflatable boats (deflated), sail covers, and complaining crew members being tied into anchor lines in extremis.

 

[Rick D]

Friend's Experience

A friend had a 42' heavy-displacement Dickerson ketch with a cut-away full keel and attached rudder. He single-handed her for much of his cruising. She had been well cruised and was an east-coast boat. He tarried too long in the Bahamas and got smacked by the edge of a hurricane about 500 miles out. He lay off with a parachute drogue off the bow for two days before heading out again. That was in (he said) were seas that got up to 30' and winds to eighty knots. He was heading from the Azores to the UK when he lost his rudder off Spain. The rudder sounds as if the shaft separated from the internal skeleton at the weld points (which he verified by diving on it). Anyhow, he built an emergency rudder from parts aboard but had to disassemble it in the face of a series of serious storms. As I recall he was hanging off the drogue for seven or more days. He had no insurance and didn't want to abandon the boat w/o good reason. He later made it to Spain with the cobbled together rudder (thanks Hunter's engineering for the plans!)

Anyhow, it's interesting on a couple of levels. First, I was a skeptic that he would be able to launch and retrieve that big drogue himself. He did. Second, I didn't think it would allow him to hold her head to seas. It did. It no doubt saved the boat in the second instance and allowed him rest and peace over a long period. I don't know about chafe, but assume he delt with it. However, did the rudder get damaged from the experience with the hurricane? Or, was it just freeze-damage over time from winter haul-out? We'll never know. All we know is it seemed to work for him under trying circumstances.

 

[Hermit Scott]

your text burns my retnas.
I looked at a youtube video that shows how to take a regular anchor rode and you can buy the cones and you thread them through the outter casing of the rode. It's a couple hunderd bucks in cones and whatever the rode cost.
I didn't see it mentioned but the site also claimed that the series will prevent ANY slack in the rope and not allow the boat to turn sideways to the wave. I thought that and being able to winch it back in and the cones collapsing on the winch was the best parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI061nsW6Go that's the youtube deal from the people that sell the cones seperately.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Many small vs few medium vs one large

I believe the literature explained why the series drogue folks chose many small cones on a long line vs fewer on either the same length or shorter line. The length of the line insures that some of the cones are always pulling and keeping tension on the rode. It also insures that the load does not suddenly increase or decrease and makes the helmsman's job easier. Also, all cones deflate when "back watered". The larger the cone the more dramatic the re-inflation. There is also the possibility that the cone might become inverted and not preform its job at all (at the worst moment no doubt). Small cones cannot invert and don't add much to the pull individually so having a section deflate is not that big a deal.
Finally, recovering the drogues can be a big deal if you cannot afford to stop the boat. Hanging one from the bow does not even allow for the option of stopping the boat without the use of the engine. I envision rodes going round prop shafts....... here:cry:. The series drogue just comes aboard with the rode via a sheet winch. The hardware associated with other cones would seem to make recovery a real hassle. I, for one, do not want to have yet another hassle after successfully riding out a storm.

Sailright has the kits for the series drogue BTW.

 

[Roger Long]

your text burns my retnas.

Sorry about the eye strain. My new web host allows commercial transaction so I will shortly be offering special polarized glasses with a custom chartruse tint for readers of my posts

I've seen that video. 100 cones! That's not a job I want to be hunkered down doing while preparing for a storm.

If you study the waves in the diagrams on this site:

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_15.htm

I think you'll see why 10 equally spaced cones won't behave much differently if the total drag is the same. Retrieval will be harder but I would expect to use this thing only once and maybe never. My only objective in building a different design is to be able to carry the rope separately. It could save my boat in a different circumstance such as anchoring in very deep water disabled off a lee shore.

 

[Roger Long]

I believe the literature explained why the series drogue folks chose many small cones on a long line vs fewer on either the same length or shorter line.

Yes, and it's all sound design and sound thinking. I have no doubt that it's better, as a drogue. From an overall safety point of view however, I'd rather have the long rode separate in a locker since it is more likely to be needed for another purpose. If I was planning a circumnavigation, October NE to Bermuda trip, or frequent trans-Atlantic's, I would probably go with the standard design.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Friend's Experience

I think the bottom line is that almost anything works, most of the time. The Series Drogue is an attempt to cover as many bases as possible. Most of the time is good for many things but, if the exception is the when you lose your boat.....

 

[Roger Long]

I'm presuming a broach resulting from relatively fast water astern and slow ahead rather than one resulting for over pressing the boat

It depends on wave length. That's a classic broach situation and almost anything dragged astern will help. The Series Drogue is aimed at the situation where the wave faces have become so much longer than the boat that surfing down the face and burying the bow in the trough is a danger.

Almost anything that increases draw will help somewhat with the latter. There is one story in which someone credits their survival to the boat being so fouled that it couldn't pick up speed in the waves. He got caught because he was only able to make 3 - 4 knots on the passage. The traditional "seaworthy double ender" like the Tahiti ketches and wetsnails rely somewhat on this principle. Drogues became more popular as these types passed from the scene. The grandmother was essentially just making her boat draggy with some additional directional stability.

As I said in another post this morning, almost anything works, most of the time. The Series Drogue extends that "most" considerably. They claim to "always" but they are selling something. I do believe it is the current state of the art however.

 

[Bluebird]

In the book Storm Tactics Larry Pardey discusses the many methods used for weathering severe weather and the ways to heave-to in different boats. I gather from that (and I have no off shore experience) book that what works very well for one configuration boat may not serve well in a different boat. The recommendation seems to be to try different methods in moderate storm conditions until you find a system that works well in your boat with your crew. Am I missing something in there or is that a reasonable approach. I get the impression that adequate sea-room is of paramount importance.

Ross, Having sailed the Bay for years and offshore.the Bay will offer you many chances to experiment w/ Droges ,the fetch of the bay is small but shallow water offers a greater challange,Happy Days ahead,Barry

 

[knutfg]

Drogues, Sea Anchors and heave to

Hi, I know the string subject is about drogues and my posting is really about the statements made about heave-to and real sea anchors, particularly with reference to the Pardeys. I am sure the drogue experiences are valuable and as always, with all the variables involved, the use of a drogue will certainly be the right thing in some situations.
However, I am a bit surprised about the level of misunderstandings demonstrated by comments made on the use of heave-to, which MAY include the use of a sea anchor, excellently described by the Pardeys. They have demonstrated that their described techniques can be very successfully used on all sorts of single hull sailboats and one of the many advantages is that rudder damage is NOT a risk when done right (the boat drifts sideways at about 45 degrees to weather). One of their important recommendations for cruisers is to heave to before conditions become extreme, thus being at a huge advantage IF conditions further deteriorate to wind speeds of 50-70 knots over a long time.
I find the argumentation very logical, their experience level undisputed and the research and factual backing presented by the Pardeys to be top notch. Rather than me trying to explain things, I can only strongly recommend that anybody preparing for ocean passage should read carefully their book on the subject. As one tip to consider: You can "park" your boat (drifting at 1.5 to 2 knots) when you need rest and safety and let the weather pass you by rather than staying in the extreme weather because you sail along with it :dance:

 

[newly anonymous]

an expensive option

I've heard of milk crates, spare sails, sleeping bags, hanks of rope, inflatable boats (deflated), sail covers, and complaining crew members being tied into anchor lines in extremis.

A buddy of mine got so desperate he shackled some chain to a folding bicycle and used it for a drogue.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Drogues, Sea Anchors and heave to

I would expect the Pardey methods to work best with the long shallow keel boats they favor and less well with fin keel boat that increasingly go offshore.

My friend who lost his 40 foot ketch was using pretty much the Pardey method when the rudder broke. I don't know how closely he was following their system but videos from the USCG chopper seem to show her about 45 degrees to the wind and sea. This was a centerboard boat although a deep one but the configuration gave her an unusually low aspect rudder that would have been subject to great strains in reverse so it may not be representative.

When I think about the really dangerous seas, the ones with a steep face a couple boat lengths long or more and a breaking top, I wonder how well the 45 degree, bow on, configuration would work.

Parking your boat when you need rest is a very different issue than being worried about being 360'ed violently. I would favor the Pardey method for the former and the drogue for the latter.

I don't have a copy of their book on hand. Would you mind telling me the size sea anchor they recommend for a 32' - 12,000 pound displacement boat? I'd like to compare drogue area with the Series Drogue.

 

[Todd Smith]

... It could save my boat in a different circumstance such as anchoring in very deep water disabled off a lee shore.

But doesn't the series drogue allow a knot or two drift ? That wouldn't be much use off a lee shore.

Todd

 

[Bill Roosa]

Usage of drogues

All drogues allow drift and so don't work well off lee shores. OK, they work fine till the boat grounds:dance:
Drifting backwards will eventually result in rudder damage.
The drogue is intended to be used to slow the boat that has chosen, for what ever reason, to run with the wind. One can only presume that that is a wise decision given the situation.
If you have a lee shore situation then a drogue is not the survival solution you are looking for. Pull out the storm sails and prepare to get beat up.
Pardey used his bow deployed drogue in less than EXTREEM situations. There are a whole host of things you should do before you get to the "time to deploy the drogue" part of the trip. Avoiding the whole situation being right up at the top of my list.

I would have to disagree that you can always heave-to (park the boat). In breaking seas this is exactly the wrong thing to do.

 

[Roger Long]

But doesn't the series drogue allow a knot or two drift ? That wouldn't be much use off a lee shore.

I was referring to having the rope to be used with a drogue similar to the series drogue kept and used separately with a conventional anchor is such a situation. The line without all the cones on it could also be a tow line, jury rig material, etc.

The trade off is giving up ultimate drogue performance which may never be needed for availability of the main rope that is more likely to be needed, at least as I see my cruuising profile.

 

[Ross]

Re: Usage of drogues

Bill , if you haven't read "storm Tactics" I can't recommend it too highly. The Pardeys have weathered hurricane force winds with the methods that are discribed in the book.

 

[knutfg]

Thanks for the comments and opinions. Let me again recommend everybody (regardless of boat type) to read the book (rather than through possible inaccuracies or too much abbreviated recounts from my side):
"Storm Tactics - Handbook - Modern Methods of Heaving-To for Survival in Extreme Conditions" by Linn and Larry Pardey, distributed by Paradise Cay Publications.
Some remarks from my side (based on the book and limited personal experience with the Pardey system):
- Yes, it is easiest to establish the 50 degrees angle with long keel boats, but this does NOT mean that it will not work with modern sailboat designs. Experimenting in winds above 30 knots is necessary to learn how to do it right. Many modern boats at above 50 knots will tend to move forward out of the turbulence slick and may depend on the use of the sea anchor to prevent this.
- A couple of comments question if heave-to can be used in breaking seas and extreme conditions. Pardeys emphasize that such conditions are exactly what this tactic is for (see title of book) and breaking seas are NOT hitting the boat when this is done right. What is "extreme conditions"? A quick check in the book shows personal experience from the Authors up to 75-80 and even 89 knots of wind. One trip with 5 following depressions in the N Pacific (in the book) gave 70-80 knots and heave-to conditions for a total of 100 hours.
- For a 32' sailboat, a sea anchor of 8' diameter is about right
- Note that properly hove-to, the boat is NOT drifting backwards and rudder damage is not an issue. With drogues and also sea anchors just deployed from the bow (not angled properly at 50 degrees) rudder damage is a risk.
My interest in the subject is primarily for my own safety at sea and I have no commission for selling Pardey books. However, the information in the book is unusually compelling and convincing and at about $20 any sailor should know the content in and out. The methods recommended are not excluding other choices, especially in racing situations and for boats with sufficient and well qualified crew, but for cruising couples and families the information is simply invaluable. Besides the survival aspect in extreme conditions, the comfort and rest option and avoiding running with the weather in the wrong direction is also important.
Fair and safe sailing to everybody in 2009 :dance: