Does this boat exist?

jssailem · Jul 26, 2020

It is a lot more fun to sail on a reach than tacking up wind in most boats. Boats designed for racing do a lot better going up wind. They often have deep thin keels and are more unstable than the boats you are considering. The designs that improve their up wind performance conflict with the characteristic you have stated important to you.

As you are discovering, boats cause you to compromise. As an example, you give up a little upwind performance for more stability and shallow water opportunities.

cb32863 · Jul 27, 2020

My First 235 points relatively well actually with the wing keel. Other factors come in to play as well with pointing. Sometimes I out point the other 235's in the fleet, other times they out point me. Again, the 235 is a cruiser/racer. Lots of comfort in that 23.5' boat and she sails very well. Finot never designed a dog for sure. When sailing upwind, we have never really been uncomfortable and I sail on a lake with lots of power boat chop, short interval waves, and shifty breeze. Seriously, give one a look. Beneteau First 235 - A pocket racer with cruising aspirations! beneteau235.com

Meriachee · Jul 27, 2020

stickinthemud57 said:
Not sure I understand this response. Although I have alluded to it a couple of times in this thread, I am not getting a lot of feedback. Has this been covered in another thread I should be investigating? Is this something I should not be concerned about?

Boat design should not necessarily be a function of a selection criteria when the results of that input are not fully understood. For a shallow inland lake, possibly the very best boat is a MacGregor 26. Why? water ballast - light to travel down the road. Retractable keel and rudder - no chance you'll get it stuck in the mud, and you can run the boat up to the beach. Simple to rig, tow it with almost anything, and they have decent space inside.
You want to race? Learn what the boat does very well, one thing it accelerates. You will beat a keel boat in a short run tacking duel every time. After a while (15 years in our case) you get tired of doing everything on your knees. The 270 has headroom, and it takes a 1 ton to haul it down the road. People poop ono the MacGregor with surprising regularity, and most of them have never owned one. Some of the same could be said about a wing. I like the ability to come and go as I want, without a crane. You can't do that with a fin.

Jim26m · Jul 27, 2020

stickinthemud57 said:
-Keel boat because I want my passengers to not worry about capsizing. Ballast boat? Maybe, but I'm skeptical.

Depends on who your passengers are. Most newbies are white-knuckled at 10-15 degrees on their first outing; panicking that the boat is going to "tip over". If you want guaranteed no heeling, go with a cat or tri. The F trimaran boats are amazing fast with very little heel. Monohulls at 26 ft are probably going to heel 10-15 degrees when sailing.

I would not let my passengers dictate what boat I was going to buy. They will adjust to heeling with experience.

Daveinet · Jul 27, 2020

I'll make one comment about performance. My first monohull did not perform well. It was a 17 footer with ballast in the stub keel. I think a bowling ball would have sailed faster. The boat was comfortable with a good sized cockpit. My kids hated sailing. I sold that boat and purchased the RL24 that I sail now. I bought this boat with a strict criteria on performance numbers. PHRF 174. It sails upwind very well. It is lightweight and has minimal ballast for the size boat - 350 lbs in the swing keel. As it turns out, this performance switch made a big difference in the enjoyment for my family. The boat does heal, but not badly. I've been out in 30 +mph winds and had a blast. Even though it has a light ballast, the boat does not heal badly, it just goes fast. For passengers or inexperienced guests, there is nothing worse than putting along at 2 to 3 knots in light wind. They also don't tolerate a lot of tacking. It just wears thin after a while. Keeping your guests engaged makes a big difference in their enjoyment.

Jim26m · Jul 27, 2020

stickinthemud57 said:
What you say about newbies and their fear of heeling is true. That's what my experience with my 22-year-old son was. He is not interested in joining me when I take my Hunter 170 out, which sucks.

Here's the thing; the sailing experience is not just about boat performance. Part of the equation for me is the social aspect, and the comfort of my passengers is important in that regard. Friends, kids, grand kids, etc. will be those I am hoping will be enthusiastic about joining me and my wife for a sail. If the first time they go for a sail they get spooked, it is not likely I will be able to persuade them to come out a second time

I don't intend to let my passengers "dictate" to me, but if I don't make some accommodation for their enjoyment and comfort, they will stay on shore.

This is why the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to own 2 boats - one for comfort and one for sport.

Completely agree with you regarding the social aspect. That is what it's about for me also. When the wife or neighbors look uncomfortable, I get them to move toward the rail and I let out the sheets, or pick a new point of sail. My younger daughter and her friends would tolerate sailing at 5 knots for an hour or two. After that, they wanted to go on a planing run up the river at full throttle - the reason I own a bipolar boat...

While some heel is inevitable, you can certainly control it so that it stays reasonable. If 10 degrees is too much for your crowd, you may have to go multi hull, though.

It is possible that a bigger boat might make your son a more willing participant. The 170 is full contact sailing - not a leisurely, shady, day on the water... Whatever the reason, it's a shame he doesn't enjoy sailing with you. I feel your pain. My daughters will all go, but they don't go often since they live out of town.

It may have come across more harsh than I meant it, but I wouldn't consider how newbies react when selecting my boat. However, I would definitely consider them when we were on the boat sailing... Happy Boat Hunting.