Does it really make sense to use "kinetic ropes" as anchor rodes ??

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Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
I started this topic on Sailnet and the response so far has been surprisingly muted. Before concluding that everyone agrees with me, I would like to test this tidbit in the SBO shark tank, encouraged by the recent feeding frenzy on technical issues here :)

Why should sailors trust elastic nylon rodes to keep their anchors firmly set in sand or mud bottoms when offroad 4-wheeling enthusiasts use the same nylon rope as a KERR (kinetic energy recovery rope) to help yank vehicles weighing thousands of pounds out of the mud ?? This vexing paradox led me to Alain Fraysse's "tuning an anchor rode" webpages in which he analyzes the static as well as dynamic behavior of anchor rodes as a function of rode type/length/ thickness, water depth, vessel shape/size/weight and wind strength. In addition to discussing the basic laws and equations with the aid of practical examples, he provides interactive forms and Excel worksheets with which the reader can test various vessel, wind and rode parameter combinations. Among the dynamic phenomena considered are the combined effects of wind gusts and rode elasticity (particularly with regard to shockloading through surging) as well as the mechanism and effects of yawing (aka sailing at anchor). Alain purposely limits himself to wind-induced rather than wave-induced dynamic phenomena. While hinting that the latter could easily be 10 times as strong, he basically summons cruisers to avoid -- or abandon -- wave-exposed anchorages.

The dynamic examples given show a single, sustained windgust producing a 400 daN (900 lb) drag force on a 5-ton boat attached to a securely set anchor in 5 m (16 ft) of water by means of a single rode, variously consisting of 55 m (180 ft) of 8 mm (5/16") chain, 55 m of 18 mm (3/4") nylon, 20 m of chain + 35 m of nylon, and 45 m of chain + 10 m of nylon. Assuming a steady wind force of 100 daN (225 lb) before the gust, he then plots rode tension, surge velocity, distance behind anchor and degree of angulation between rode and bottom as functions of time. The Excel spreadsheets also allow variable windgust rise times, rather than a (zero-rise time) step function. Since Alain's graphs for the different rodes tend to be scaled differently, making direct visual comparison difficult, I have rescaled and combined his graphs for the 4 different rode types into a single plot (see image attached below or click on link). For the purpose of this anchor rode vs kinetic rope discussion, I have omitted the rode angulation plots.

http://terrawatch.net/images/DynamicRodeCollage.jpg

The composite plots only show the first surge event in response to the windgust. According to Alain's calculations, that first event is followed by a series of oscillatory surge events that dampen out relatively slowly. In fact, even the tension spike in the full chain is followed by a second maximum of nearly equal height and duration. To me this is counterintuitive as I can't recall ever having noticed oscillatory shockloading from our anchor chain as the result of a single, sustained gust. For the purpose of the present discussion I will just focus on the first surge event. Unsurprisingly, Alain points out that it is difficult to obtain an accurate value for the minute elasticity of anchor chain under the conditions used. Depicting the chain as completely inelastic, however, is not an option as it would produce infinitely high shockloads in the tension plot. Therefore he uses a small elastic stretch value (equivalent to about .07 % at 1,000 daN or 1/200 of that of the nylon rope).Because of the nonlinearity of the shockloading forces produced during minimally elastic collision events, as well as the lack of reliable anchor chain elasticity values, the tension plot for the full chain rode can only be a very rough estimate at best.

By way of an everyday minimally-elastic collision example: imagine dropping a small ceramic cup from your hands. On a concrete floor the outcome is likely to be very different than on a wooden floor, although the latter flexes no more than a few thousands of an inch. Yet this minute amount of elasticity ends up making a huge difference. During the inelastic collision with the concrete floor the cup's momentum (MxV; where M is mass and V is velocity) is primarily transferred into impulse (Fxt; where F is force and t is time duration); i.e. MxV = Fxt. Since the contact time is extremely short in this case (typically in the microsecond range), the shockload force F exerted by the floor is very large, thus shattering the cup. The minuscule elastic movement of a wooden floor, however, allows some of the cup's momentum to be preserved as floor momentum (with very small V but large M) while potentially extending the contact time into the millisecond range, thereby greatly diminishing the value of the shockloading force F.

If such minute amounts of elasticity (and/or pseudo-elasticity due to residual chain catenary and link misalignments) produce major reductions in shockload force it should come as no surprise that the inclusion of a 32 ft length of 3/4" thick nylon line in the 180 ft rode nearly reduces the maximum tension in the rode to that of a full nylon rode. Although even the use of as little as 10 ft of nylon "snubber" line markedly reduces the overtensioning of chain rodes in response to wind gusts, sailors often argue that the longer the elastic nylon line section, the better it will be for vessel comfort and safety. Consequently, nylon rodes with relatively short chain leaders (e.g. 20-30 ft) have become quite popular since cost and weight are low, they are easily handled and stowed and the chain leader help keeps the angle of pull on the anchor low while reducing the risk of chafing the rode on rocks or coral outcroppings.

Before deciding, however, that these are ideal anchor rodes, let's take a step back and examine the dynamic response profiles of the two most elastic rodes shown in the figure, i.e. the full nylon rode and the nylon rode with chain leader, in more detail. Compared to the minimally elastic all-chain rode the highly elastic all-nylon rode produces a 2.5x higher maximum vessel velocity (and thus maximum momentum) plus a 10x larger surge excursion (and thus mechanical energy relase). Most importantly, while calculated maximum rode tension drops by a factor of 2 (assuming the all-chain elasticity estimates were realistic), the duration of the gust-induced tension maximum becomes a factor of 10 longer, thus amplifying the impulse (F.t) delivered to anchor and vessel approximately 5-fold. As any sailor familar with the retrieval of well-imbedded anchors from sand or mud bottoms knows, rather than trying to break the anchor out suddenly with great force one learns to apply a steady pull over a period of 20-40 seconds, or so......

Clearly, the all-nylon rode in Alain's sample calculation behaves like a typical kinetic rope, first stretching to store large amounts of kinetic energy imparted to the vessel by the wind gust (in the form of potential energy) and then shortening again to release this energy by simultaneously trying to pull the vessel back and the anchor out. Moreover, the dynamic behavior of a long nylon rode with short chain leader does not appear to vary greatly from that of an all-nylon rode, other than by its ability to reduce the angle off pull on the anchor (provided the tension in the rode is not high enough to fully straighten out the rode, of course; see Alain's website for in-detail discussions).

In short, while a measured amount of elasticity in an anchor rode is a highly beneficial property, there would seem to be such a thing as too much elasticity. Based on the well-established fundamentals and applications of KERR systems there appears to be no particular reason to expect that anchors attached to highly elastic rodes with properties similar to kinetic ropes are somehow magically destined to stay firmly embedded in sand or mud rather than to be yanked out unceremoniously when winds and waves conspire to load the rode up with a dangerous amount of potential energy.....

If so, the safe solution might be to choose rode materials with lower elasticity and/or to dimension and proportion high-elasticity rode segments in such a way as to limit the maximum amount of potential energy that can be stored and released to levels that are safe for the type and size of anchor as well as the type of bottom involved.

Have fun!

Flying Dutchman
 

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Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Dutch, First of all I am not certain where you want to go with this discussion. And secondly The force applied to the anchor peaks at the maximum extension of the rode and drops off sharply when the applied force drops below the peak and the elastic recovery of the rode starts. If you pull the rope/chain rode bar taut then the chain is not heavy enough. If the forces applied are low velosity then pulling the catenary out of the rode to a bar taut condition still will not result in shock loading if the weight of the chain is adequate. The longer the section of nylon rode the greater will be the length of the elongation at peak loadings and the greater the time required for the force to be applied because the boat must move to stretch the rode.
 
Jun 19, 2004
512
Catalina 387 Hull # 24 Port Charlotte, Florida
It's been quite some time Dutch since I used a "kinetic" rope to snatch a 4 WD out of the mud, but the concept was sorta different from what I use one for on the boat.

To snatch the stuck vehicle from the mud, the concept was to pull the rope (most of the time I used a 3/4 inch nylon 3 strand braid) until it was about the diameter of a pencil and then, firmly apply the brakes of the tow vehicle. It was the elasticity of the rope, and its' desire to return to the at rest state of condition that is was at before being stretched to what it was that freed the vehicle from the mud.

With my boat, I may stretch the rode some, yet I do not apply the brakes to the boat and allow the rope to return to its origional size and pull the anchor out.

I'm not sure that the comparison of the application of the "kinetic" rope in this case is an apple to apple one.
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Ross,

Where I want to go with the discussion is to examine the unwanted aspects of storing lots of energy in highly elastic rodes, to the possible detriment of the anchor's ability to hold rather than to be yanked out. Sorry for not being able to make that more clear to you

You are wrong in stating that the force applied to the anchor drops off sharply right after the peak value is reached (just look at the graphs) unless the graphs calculated by Alain for highly elastic rode combinations are wrong, of course.

Although I agree with your argument that pulling the catenary out of the chain still does not lead to shock loading, I am not worried in the least about shock loading since that can be avoided with a minimum of elasticity. Instead, I am worried about using ropes that can store and release far more energy than a well-set anchor is designed to handle.

FD
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
With my boat, I may stretch the rode some, yet I do not apply the brakes to the boat and allow the rope to return to its origional size and pull the anchor out.
Nah, you and I can't put on the brakes, of course. However, the next windgust or wave hitting our boats just when the rode is loaded up maximally (see Alain's graphs) will be all the braking effect that is needed.

FD
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Dutch, You can settle this with a bungee and a concrete block on your drive way . Connect one to the other and anchor one end of the bunge to a well fixed point and pull the concrete block along the ground until it will start te move back on its own, and turn it loose. It won't slide far before the friction overcomes the force of the bungee.
 
Jan 4, 2006
282
West Coast
Stretching a Point

Ross, your illustration highlights the central question: is the force that starts that brick sliding back toward the door analogous to an anchor being pulled out of the seabed by stored energy in the rode?

The idea of a dynamic rode is to mitigate peak loads by storing energy to be released over time. The moment of truth, it would seem, is when a hull receives a second wave/wind force when the rode is already loaded & cannot absorb the energy of the second hit. At that moment, do you simply have a static system (like a "bar tight" chain), or is there a compounding of forces trying to dislodge that anchor?

I'm not great at physics: someone is going to have to explain to me how it can be that the energy stored in a dynamic rode can be greater than the total force pushing the hull downwind(stream), at any given moment.

Which is worse, as far as keeping your anchor bedded: sustained load over time, or peak load as a pulse?
 
Aug 2, 2005
374
pearson ariel grand rapids
The reason for scope is to soften the shock load on the anchor. Would seem that having a 'shock absorbing' rode would be the same as adding scope.

The reason that a snatch strap is preferred for pulling is because when pulling someone out of a ditch or mud, it allows the maximum force to be reached relatively gradually, no abrupt shock load. trust me, being an avid mudrunner, I have pulled plenty of people out of the mud, and been pulled out myself a few times. A chain used under identical conditions will yank a bumper off. Chains break things simply because they can't act as shock absorbers.

Regardless of the elasticity of the line, you get no more energy out of it than you put into it.

Give me the soft load any day.

Ken.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Another way to play with this is of a gentle slope with a bag of sand for an anchor and a child's wagon for a boat and a long length of bungee for the rode. Load the wagon run the bungee from wagon to sand bag and let the wagon run down slope. The stretch of the bungee will decelerate the wagon and then pull it back up slope a bit. After that if you act as wind or wave and push the wagon down slope when you let up the stretched bungee will pull the wagon back to equilibrium. If you push too hard then the sandbag(anchor) will drag
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
I see no point in trying to reinvent the wheel by dreaming up all sorts of tests to prove or disprove whether kinetic ropes can act as force amplifiers. Both the practical and theoretical aspects of kinetic ropes are well enough understood.

For the practical aspects, just visit the 4x4 website I linked to in my post and find out with what kind of respect experienced off-roaders treat the bigger and heavier ropes. There are just too many reports of cars torn apart (e.g. one or more wheels and axles staying behind in the mud) when using overdimensioned ropes after attempts at conventional pulling or winching with chains or steel cables were unable to move the tow at all, to doubt the huge force amplifications seen.

Also Alain Fraysse's calculations, though designed to model anchor rodes rather than typical kinetic ropes, clearly show how a 400 daN (~ 900 lb) windgust drag force produces tension forces up to 800 daN (~1800 lbs) in the more elastic ropes. Moreover, the overtension (i.e. the period during which the rode tension force was higher than the drag force exerted by the wind gust) lasted up to 20 seconds.

FD
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Regardless of the elasticity of the line, you get no more energy out of it than you put into it. Ken.
Of course, the total energy output cannot be greater than the total energy input. The same is true for batteries.

However, kinetic ropes act as storage devices for kinetic energy in the form of potential energy just as batteries act as storage devices for electrical energy in the form of chemical energy.

As is the case with batteries, for a shorter period of time output power can be many times higher than input power. There is no great mystery here since no conservation laws are being violated.

Again, just look at Alain's graphs to see the significant force amplification.

FD
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You could prove or disprove your theory by comparing bungee jumping experiences using elastic cords, stay-set -X rope, and chain.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Why should sailors trust elastic nylon rodes to keep their anchors firmly set in sand or mud bottoms....? This vexing paradox led me to Alain Fraysse's "tuning an anchor rode" webpages
First, let me say that this is one of the most interesting technical boating sites I've seen. Thanks for the pointer.

However, I would have to see some real world data with recorded wind speed and rode tension measurement before getting too excited about the peak loadings show. The USCG stability regulations for sailboats (something I'm as intimately familiar with as anyone alive, having worked on the modifications to them for sailing school vessels) are based on similar dynamic principles. The predict that a boat hit by a gust will heel about twice as far as it's final heel angle and then come back to a steady heel angle. This is not to be confused with a gust having a higher front velocity and then dropping off as most do. The regulations envision the wind suddenly increasing and then staying at that velocity. I argued for years that sailboats do not behave this way because I had never observed anything remotely like it while sailing. Wind tunnel tests at the Wolfson Unit in England eventually proved me right.

The dynamic analysis is based on looking at the area under the graphs; not their magnitude at any point. The system does not become stable until the areas become equal. There can never be more area under the "rode" graph at any point in time than the wind gust graph. There can be more area under the "gust" graph if the system can store energy.

The problem with these dynamic calculations is that energy leaks out of the system in more ways that can be accounted for and systems are less effective at storing energy than theory predicts.

When nylon rodes stretch, they get warm. Under heavy loads, this even becomes a factor in their strength. This energy has to be trimmed off the "gust" graph or added to "rode" graph before measuring the areas. The inertia to start the boat moving isn't stored, most of it goes off into eddies from the rigging and hull that warm up the atmosphere slightly with the energy that bleeds off. This has to be deducted from the "gust" graph until the boat is moving. Once the boat is moving, water resistance from the hull and rode itself become deductions. All these effects add up. Having watched many boats at anchor in gusty conditions and worked with calculations like these, I would expect the maximum loads to be much closer to simple static behavior than these dynamics.

I don't think the off road vehicle recovery methods have anything to do with this. You can't amplify energy. They are dealing with moving a very viscous and slow moving fluid (mud) around wheels with a dynamic and insecure attachement point (the other vehicle). While an anchor is in mud, it is a given with the 4 wheeler that pull is going to exceed anchor holding power (the tires of stuck vehicle). They are simply storing energy in order to give the mud time to flow. Tires are also the opposite shape of anchors which are designed to dig deeper under load.

OTOH, my gut and experience tell me that the forces associated with yawing and pitching or pretty close in magnitude to the peak loads shown so there is no harm in believing them.

I finished reading this feeling pretty good about the 25 feet of chain with 250 foot nylon rode on my 32 foot boat. I also have two lengths of chain stowed in the bilge for a total of 180 feet available in emergency conditions and this:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/Strider06work.htm#Kellet

(Be patient. It's an archive page section so there are a lot of pictures to load. The important one is below but you'll miss the funny part of the story.)
 

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Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
You could prove or disprove your theory by comparing bungee jumping experiences using elastic cords, stay-set -X rope, and chain.
Ross, for someone who has written extensively about aerodynamics you seem to have surprisingly little trust in the laws of physics.......

The power amplification is not "my theory". Just check out Alain Fraysse's calculations. They are pretty straightforward, especially in the case of the all-nylon rode.

Henk
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The effects of Elasticity comes in two 'flavors'
First flavor is the reduction of the impact load on the anchor (but, the tensile load remains the same). Reduction of impact increases the time that the peak load is applied - a good thing.
Second flavor is the 'rebound', where the stored energy of loading is released .... and the boat moves forward during the recovery .... sometimes an untowards/bad effect.

I prefer dacron for rope rodes and prefer all-chain over that.
We use mostly dacron rope in 'rescue' because of its lower elasticity than nylon.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
I prefer dacron for rope rodes and prefer all-chain over that./quote]

I'm curious. Have you (or anyone else) ever observed the energy release from a nylon rode creating excessive anchor strain? I haven't but you seldom have to anchor in an unsheltered place in this part of the world. One of the few exceptions was when I woke up to find that the wind had shifted 180 degrees and breaking waves were going down the deck with their tops about level with the cabin top. Fortunately, the 26 footer didn't have a forward hatch. That was on a nylon rode and Danforth in sand. There wasn't anything else to do except go back to sleep until it calmed down. The anchor held fine.

Do you have other reasons for preferring dacron? I'm going to want another rode before I head to Canada and would like to know more before I buy it.

All chain is out of the question for my boat except in emergencies.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I don't think the two cases—that of pulling a 4x4 out of the mud and a boat at anchor—are analogous enough to be worth comparing. First, the loads on the 4x4 being pulled out of the mud go from a fairly high resistance—being stuck in mud—to fairly low resistance—no longer being stuck in mud and rolling freely. The loads on an anchored boat don't go through such a wide range—since the boat is in the water with the winds and seas applying forces on it regardless of the amount of tension in the rode. Also, a sailboat, especially a monohull keelboat has far more inertia than does a small 4x4 vehicle.

The amount of resistance and inertia the vehicle or boat has alters the rope's ability to accelerate the vehicle. Higher acceleration forces will lead to greater damage...as pointed out in the OP's example of dropping a china cup onto a floor—the wooden floor's minute amount of flex greatly reduces the deceleration rate of the cup.

The greater the acceleration/deceleration forces, the greater the shock loading. I think that most of the damage to 4x4's being pulled from mud using too thick a rope is caused when the bulk of the 4x4 comes free of the mud and the rope starts to rebound much more quickly, due to the lower resistance provided. This creates a higher acceleration rate effectively, and that is what leaves the other bits behind.

Please note, that the wheels and axles of a 4x4 are only connected by the suspension and drive train, and the design of the suspension and drive train aren't really designed to resist forces in tension. The suspension is primarily designed to resist compression forces, as the weight of the vehicle is normally bearing down on it—and the tension forces on a suspension—that of the wheels being pulled away from the vehicle, are normally very low. Considering that, it is no real wonder that if the body of the vehicle is free from mud and accelerated hard away from the wheels, still stuck in viscous mud, that the wheels and axles become separated from said vehicle.

The ground tackle attachment points on a boat, if properly designed, should be able to resist far more force than the suspension of a 4x4 is designed to—since resisting such a force is its primary purpose.

I think that due to the resistance caused by the boat moving through the water, combined with the boat's relatively high mass/inertia, reduces the acceleration forces experienced by the anchor. Without the shock loading of high acceleration values, most anchors will not break free unless completely overwhelmed by the size of the relatively static loads. This is probably more true of fluke type anchors and next-generation type anchors, which are far less likely to move through mud or sand due to their geometry.

To demonstrate what I mean, take a piece of dental floss, say 5' long...and tie it to a five-pound weight. Pull on the string and pick up the weight to two feet above the floor... Most floss can support a five pound weight without much trouble. Now, tie the other end of the floss to something solid about five feet above the floor, and take the five pound weight and drop it from a height of two feet. The floss will snap. It isn't that potential energy of the weight is any different... it is the fact that in one the forces are applied gradually, and in the other, they're applied very suddenly.

As for using dacron, I'd rather use Nylon, since it has better elasticity characteristics than does Dacron. IMHO, the relatively low elasticity of Dacron means that it will transfer forces more suddenly, making it more likely, rather than less, that the anchor or ground tackle will break.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Ross, for someone who has written extensively about aerodynamics you seem to have surprisingly little trust in the laws of physics.......

The power amplification is not "my theory". Just check out Alain Fraysse's calculations. They are pretty straightforward, especially in the case of the all-nylon rode.

Henk
Oh you misunderstand. I have absolute faith in the laws of physics. Acceleration is force divided by mass times time. You can have positive and negative acceleration. A very good example is in a shotgun blast. You have a force(burning gunpowder) acting on a mass 1 ounce of lead shot over a period of time (the length of the gun tube) The shot travels thru the air space and the shotgun responds to Newton's law of motion and applied force and recoils. The mass of lead shot reaches the target and accerates to zero in the distance of the penetration of the pellets into the target. The target is severely damaged but the shooter is not harmed.

If you tether an object with an elastic cord you can slowly pull the object and stretch the cord (stored energy). You can then release the object and the stored energy will be returned to the object. Depending upon the viscosity of the fluid the object is occupying the time, the distance traveled to expend the energy will vary.
You may start with a slack elastic cord and accerate the object for a finite distance and allow the elastic cord to absorb the energy and the return it to the object until enough work has been done to expend the initial supply of energy. If you repeat this exercize with a chain all of the energy applied to the object during acceration will be expended when the object hits the end of the chain. Just like a moving car hitting a bridge abuttment versus plowing into a muddy field.
 
Sep 24, 1999
1,511
Hunter H46LE Sausalito
the power amplification characteristics of nylon rode...

...probably explain why nylon tends to exacerbate a boat's tendency to sail its anchor, while chain tends to ameliorate that tendency.

I'm chuckling here, Henk, wondering why you posted this query on this particular site. Did you not know it would end up a dialogue with Ross?
 
T

tsmwebb

...probably explain why nylon tends to exacerbate a boat's tendency to sail its anchor, while chain tends to ameliorate that tendency.
When you're really sailing around an anchor (eg. wind v tide or behind a hill where wind gusts are alternating from side to side) chain has the advantage of quickly sinking to the bottom and creating a good deal of drag. This is a good thing. It keeps the bow more nearly into the wind or current and reduces the boat speed dramatically. I remember an evening spent in a deep harbor (>100') inside an old volcanic cone during a frontal passage. The wind gusts were nearly 180 degrees apart and because of the depth we were mostly on nylon. We'd get up to four or five knots before we started picking up the chain... It was dark and raining and a long way from help -- not super fun. I'm a big fan of chain. Dragging a kellet along the bottom or some such might be a decent compromise.

--Tom.
 
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