Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and Sel

[capta]

I go through this garbage EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
They send a renewal notice to my daughter. She sends in the renewal and it arrives at her place. She then emails me a copy of it, which is all I have (and illegal) until she can mail it to me on some island. Every few years the original goes missing in international mail and I have to do the whole year on the copy.
No official has ever apparently noticed or cared, but if one does, I guess I'll have to spend the rest of the year on the French islands.
Amazingly, when the service was free, it functioned much better than what we must pay for now.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

I think we are all missing the real point of this documentation discussion. The majority of thread replies are along the lines that you are unlikely to have a problem operating between sale and receipt of a TCOD. I agree with that. I take, and expect to take in the future, much greater risks; rocks, weather, equipment breakdown, whatever.

However ask yourself, would sign this document if it was presented to you by the USCG as a condition of operating your vessel? Even if the USCG told you it was virtually unlikely you would be called to pay, is there anyone here who would sign it?

When we tolerate the government putting many of us in the position of breaking a law, even with highly unofficial promises that we won't have a problem, we are essentially making the agreement above.

Sure, the risk is low but, would you sign that piece of paper if the agreement were spelled out that clearly?

 

[zeehag]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

i had to have my document expedited because they didnt receive my snail mailed within usa renewal in a timely manner, so, 85 usd...and i am out of country. oopsy..then again when they received the snail mail three months later.. whoopsy.. something is amuck. i had to make 3 separate telephone calls to accomplish this task.
you may need to fone the doc center. there is a loonnnggg hold time, but it does work.
and yearly?? shiiiiite.. i am looking for a better way to do this.
i think i need to train my brother to sign my papers for me.

 

[woodster]

I think we are all missing the real point of this documentation discussion. The majority of thread replies are along the lines that you are unlikely to have a problem operating between sale and receipt of a TCOD. I agree with that. I take, and expect to take in the future, much greater risks; rocks, weather, equipment breakdown, whatever.

However ask yourself, would sign this document if it was presented to you by the USCG as a condition of operating your vessel? Even if the USCG told you it was virtually unlikely you would be called to pay, is there anyone here who would sign it?

When we tolerate the government putting many of us in the position of breaking a law, even with highly unofficial promises that we won't have a problem, we are essentially making the agreement above.

Sure, the risk is low but, would you sign that piece of paper if the agreement were spelled out that clearly?

there has to be something else to that agreement other than you will pay that amount ...why would you agree to pay 10.000 dollars to them for no apparent reason....

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Why would it be illegal for you to operate ...

your undocumented boat? If I understand your post correctly, the documentation of your boat is invalid as soon as you purchased her. If it is invalid, then she isn't documented. I'm assuming, of course, that there is no requirement for you to document your boat and you are operating under state registration.

So if the former documentation of your boat is invalid, how could you be subject to the fines for the illegal activities of a documented boat. Suppose you simply didn't intend to document your boat? Your boat isn't documented until your application is accepted and you receive your papers. There is simply a lag in time between valid documentation, so why would you be subject to fines during that period when the boat is not documented?

The fines are obviously implemented to deter illegal shipping activities of documented shipping vessels. I would bet that a fine that was levied against a recreational vessel that was in-between documentation would never stand up ... and they know it. Particularly, if legally registered with a state and there is no formal requirement for documentation.

Even if you could forego state registration via USCG documentation, and you don't have state registration, you're still not documented, so why wouldn't you merely be in violation of state registration laws and subject only to that fine?

What am I missing?

 

[uncledom]

It's only illegal if you get caught.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

The document becomes invalid but not the Documentation status which you are then in violation of by not having a current document aboard a still Documented vessel. It's like having your car registration expire. You are still subject to the system and they don't pretend you car no longer exists. They also get to add the driving without registration charge although often, "Oh officer, I was just on my way to the DMV.", approach will get you out of that. Getting out of the system requires submitting paperwork which would take as long or longer for the NVDC to process as my simple exchange of documentation.

 

[uncledom]

Roger, I use a woman who is just awesome at cutting through red tape. She costs money but I have always found her to be worth every penny. If you want her info just pm me. Good luck and fair winds.

 

[SOCAL C50]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

I agree Roger, there has got to be a legit and better way to get it done, my sister in law (ret. USCG) explained that if boarded your in violation but that isn't really what there're looking for... however if you are involved in an incident that is where paperwork will have to be in order and up to date. Insurance will reject claims if the dates aren't correct on the doc paperwork. Insurance companies will look for any way possible not to pay a claim. If crossing boarders then the customs officer might get pissy cause your paperwork isn't correct.

 

[Roger Long]

Insurance will reject claims if the dates aren't correct on the doc paperwork. Insurance companies will look for any way possible not to pay a claim.

This is the way it was when I was in aviation and I doubt it has changed. Civil aviation was basically regulated by the insurance industry. It was sort of stealth privatization that may becoming to the water.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I wonder ...

The document becomes invalid but not the Documentation status which you are then in violation of by not having a current document aboard a still Documented vessel. It's like having your car registration expire. You are still subject to the system and they don't pretend you car no longer exists. Getting out of the system requires submitting paperwork which would take as long or longer for the NVDC to process as my simple exchange of documentation.

It's not exactly the same thing when state registration and documentation overlap. My boat seems to have been documented in the past because I have doc numbers in the v-berth. I could not find any information on-line about my boat when I entered doc numbers, previous names & hailing ports. So I wonder if a previous owner simply stopped renewing or submitted paperwork to terminate documentation. There was no mention of the issue when I bought and registered the boat (in the state) thru the broker for the seller. The previous owner in Sea Bright didn't have state registration numbers on the hull, but the boat was also on blocks for a few years. A previous owner before that was in Texas.

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Holy hysteria alert.

My car insurance will PAY even if my tabs are expired.

I read BOTH my boat policies, both say nothing in the exclusions about all registration paperwork needing to be in current order for my policy to pay.

FAA airworthiness certs are from a differnet planet, reg-wise.

 

[Tally Ho]

I am not sure if any previous owner of the O'Day 322 I purchased last year had her documented....if she was documented at one point, but I have no evidence of her documentation, how in the world could I be held responsible for not renewing her documentation?

...As I type that, I laugh that we ARE talking about some government organization, so I would not put it past them....but really. how practical is that?

Greg

 

[CYQK]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

DON'T DO THIS!!!

Thought this year I would send everything in early so that in april I would have the paperwork back

WRONG!!!!
Mailed it in january and guess what? Now my renewal is in january instead of april

WOW
you gotta love it

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

The latest from the NVDC:

I just managed to get a very harried sounding woman on the phone at NVDC.

She said I should have received an immediate automated receipt to the email filing I made Friday. If I didn’t, which I did not, then “something isn’t working right in the system”. It sounds therefore, that my Friday re-submission was bounced into the phantom zone.

I mentioned my email to the webmaster asking for live receipt confirmation and she said they are presently reading the emails from 13 August. I infer therefore, that no one will even check to see if my submission went into the system until about 4 September.

I asked what the current backlog and timeline was for TCOD’S and she said they are currently making no promises or giving out any timelines on TCOD or COD deliveries. I said this is a problem because I can’t move the boat until I get a certificate. She said, “That’s right.”

I asked, “Are we talking weeks or months here?”

She said, “I can’t say.”

 

[justsomeguy]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Arrrr. :bang:

Sounds easier just to pay the $10,000.00 per day.

 

[VF84Sluggo]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

As a newb to the documenting/naming rules on boats, I see boats - sail and power - that have both a state decal and letters/numerals forward, and with a boat name and hailing port aft, stern or aft sides.

I'm assuming that if the boat is state registered, a name/hailing port is more for the fun of it, and not a legal mandate. But, if the boat is registered federally, and not with a state, the a name/hailing port is mandatory and display of state letters/numerals forward is prohibited by federal law. Is this correct?

I ask because - with the risk of angering Neptune notwithstanding - I am confused on the renaming protocol. From what I read, it looks like permissions have to be obtained to rename a vessel or change the hailing port...but I think that is only if it is "documented" and not state-registered. If state registered, naming/hailing port appears to me that it is for fun, if you will, and not really a legal requirement.

 

[dlochner]

As a newb to the documenting/naming rules on boats, I see boats - sail and power - that have both a state decal and letters/numerals forward, and with a boat name and hailing port aft, stern or aft sides.

I'm assuming that if the boat is state registered, a name/hailing port is more for the fun of it, and not a legal mandate. But, if the boat is registered federally, and not with a state, the a name/hailing port is mandatory and display of state letters/numerals forward is prohibited by federal law. Is this correct?

I ask because - with the risk of angering Neptune notwithstanding - I am confused on the renaming protocol. From what I read, it looks like permissions have to be obtained to rename a vessel or change the hailing port...but I think that is only if it is "documented" and not state-registered. If state registered, naming/hailing port appears to me that it is for fun, if you will, and not really a legal requirement.

You are essentially correct.

There are many rituals for the renaming of a boat either state or federally documented. Most involve alcohol, some involve tedious completion of government documents.

 

[VF84Sluggo]

You are essentially correct.

There are many rituals... Most involve alcohol,

Yes, and this is probably the most crucial, so as to avoid the wrath of Neptune!

 

[Capt jgw]

As a newb to the documenting/naming rules on boats, I see boats - sail and power - that have both a state decal and letters/numerals forward, and with a boat name and hailing port aft, stern or aft sides.

I'm assuming that if the boat is state registered, a name/hailing port is more for the fun of it, and not a legal mandate. But, if the boat is registered federally, and not with a state, the a name/hailing port is mandatory and display of state letters/numerals forward is prohibited by federal law. Is this correct?

I ask because - with the risk of angering Neptune notwithstanding - I am confused on the renaming protocol. From what I read, it looks like permissions have to be obtained to rename a vessel or change the hailing port...but I think that is only if it is "documented" and not state-registered. If state registered, naming/hailing port appears to me that it is for fun, if you will, and not really a legal requirement.

Exactly correct. No requirement for the name or home port to be displayed on state registered boats, although it is a good idea. Documented vessels must display name and port, but may not display state numbers if issued. State tax stickers must be displayed if issued.