Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and Sel

[Roger Long]

It is illegal to operate a U.S. Documented vessel without a current and valid Certificate of Documentation on board. Fines for violation are significant, up to $10,000 per day.


When a vessel is sold, the certificate of documentation becomes invalid immediately upon signing the bill of sale. It is then illegal to operate the vessel until the National Vessel Documentation Center issues a new document and it is physically aboard the vessel. This fact, verified by email from a lawyer at the National Vessel Documentation Center (NVDC), is being widely ignored by both the boating public and, evidently, US Coast Guard boarding officers. Neither I nor anyone I know have heard of someone being fined for following the advice our broker gave us which is to just carry a copy of the bill of sale and the documentation application.


I was assured by both the NVDC lawyer and the chief enforcement officer for the district where our new boat is located that this is indeed a violation and, at the discretion of the boarding officer, a person operating as our broker advised could face the very stiff fines. I asked the USCG district enforcement officer how I could legally move our new boat which was leaking and needed to be hauled at a shipyard. He admitted that he didn't have an answer other than to wait for the new certificate to arrive. He said that, if it was really necessary, to just do as the broker suggested, break the law, and “probably” we wouldn't have a problem. Well, as both a former pilot and as one who spent much of his career consulting to help vessel operators operate legally, “probably” just doesn't cut it with me. Besides, I am now on record as having personally been told that operation of our boat is illegal so I can't use the “Huh?” defense if boarded. Our vessel is currently hauled out after breaking the law in a quick 200 yard dash across the channel from its slip to a shipyard.


Meanwhile, the NVDC is currently processing applications from April. They have resurrected the concept of Temporary Certificates of Documentation which can be issued by word processor and are promising a three week turn around for those. Three weeks can still be a long time for a boat to be legally unable to operate after a sale.


I submitted our application on August 4 by email to the link provided on the NVDC web site. About a week later, I had not received the promised automated response so I inquired by email and was told they had not received anything from me. I send a second copy to their webmaster for him to route to the proper person. This was on August 12 th. I inquired again today, August 20 th, and was told that the webmaster never saw my second email (I checked and it went EXACTLY to the address he replied from). No one has any idea where my application is.


I just sent a third copy to the NVDC to a new email address the webmaster gave me. I sent the one on August 4 by clicking the proper link on the NVDC web site. It turns out that they eliminated one letter from the email address but never changed the website! The system didn't send out any bounce back notice, they just stopped looking at the old email address, even when trying to find applications that had gone missing.


So, we now start out at the back of the line waiting for a temporary certificate, unable to freely use the boat we paid for, and facing another month of storage fees. I understand from my contacts that NVDC personnel are surrounded by boxes of applications that haven't even been opened yet. The system has completely broken down and the Coast Guard is evidently unwilling to issue the simple documents I have seen used many times over my career which are intended to deal with issues like this. A memo called a “NVIC” (Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular) could advise boarding officers how their discretion should be exercised and formalize the ad hoc procedure that nearly everyone who buys a documented vessel is following because there is simply no way for the boat market to function if every vessel sold is immediately stuck at it dock for weeks and months while the NVDC gets around to the paperwork.


I am posting this here and on Trawlerforum.com. Feel free to repost to other forums.

 

[Jackdaw]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Part of the cost of wanting to play 'big' boat with a plastic toy! ;^)

While we waited we just went to the DMV and in 30 minutes state reg'ed it for 50 bucks. Sorted.

Some state require that anyway.

 

[woodster]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

hum......... you have just put out some food for thought ...mine was registered with the CG documentation at one time but that was 6 years ago and its been on the hard ever sense...i am registering it with the state at this point and filing for CG registration for when i go off shore to other locations and name and ownership change.... this little tid bit of info has just made me a Thief in The Night kinda guy ...good luck with your problem and keep us posted

 

[Stu Jackson]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Has anyone linked the "starving the government to save it" approach to these types of problems? If the CG had the $$ and manpower, this wouldn't be an issue, and last I looked, the CG is part of HS. Geez...

 

[uncledom]

Part of the cost of wanting to play 'big' boat with a plastic toy! ;^) While we waited we just went to the DMV and in 30 minutes state reg'ed it for 50 bucks. Sorted. Some state require that anyway.

I think, no time to look up, you can not have state registration numbers on a documented vessel.

 

[Jackdaw]

I think, no time to look up, you can not have state registration numbers on a documented vessel.

Correct. But you can have it registered. I'm guessing that with fed papers in progress and a valid state reg card on the boat it would a real dink officer to give you a hassle on a 35 foot plastic sailboat.

It seems to me this is much ado about nothing. We are not talking about high gross ton commercial vessels. Has there been a case of a pleasure craft actually been fined for this?

 

[MrBill_FLL]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

if it were me, I would either risk moving it because its leaking and might sink. (lesser of evils). OR, hire sea-tow, or similar to move it for me. -towing is not operating, right? I can't imagine a boat being moved for repair, would get hit too hard by USCG. (but I don't live in Maine either).
I like Jack's idea best. cheap enough, put the sticker on a small board, zip tied to lifelines. Around here, USCG has bigger issues to worry about.

 

[Tim R.]

I had this issue when we bought our current boat. I spoke to NVDC and they said I would be fine if I had a copy of the old doc,, bill of sale and copies of the new application on board. We went cruising for 2 weeks like this but we're never boarded.

 

[Roger Long]

I spoke to NVDC and they said I would be fine if I had a copy of the old doc,, bill of sale and copies of the new application on board.

Doesn't surprise me a bit. One thing I've learned in all these paper chases over the years is that whatever you are told on the phone will probably be wrong. I asked the question and got an email back from someone in the NVDC legal department saying exactly the opposite.

Later, while trying to figure out a legal way to move the boat, the USCG chief of enforcement for the district checked with them himself and was personally told the same thing.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

It's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. That approach is usually more expedient when dealing with government paper pushers. It could be that the folks who provided an answer to Tim at least have a heart when dealing with the public ... and they know that the folks on the water in enforcement have a heart and common sense as well. As usual, if you really want the worst-case answer, go to the legal dept.

If there are boxes of unopened applications, perhaps the USCG could off-load the paper-pushing to some of the folks in the Post Office or some other government personnel warehouse where public servants are sleeping at their desks or watching porn. They might welcome something to do. The CG has more important things to do.

 

[Johnb]

Part of the cost of wanting to play 'big' boat with a plastic toy! ;^)

.

No, it is either required or advantageous for foreign travel - depending on where you are going.

 

[Gunni]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Is this another story of a sailor trying to save a few bucks? Hire a Documentation agent. Money well spent. There are some real good reasons for documenting a boat - taxes, financing, and foreign travel, that trump convenience.

 

[Roger Long]

Is this another story of a sailor trying to save a few bucks?

Well yes. The broker offered to handle the documentation for $450. It took me 45 minutes to fill out the forms and sent them into limbo.

I should perhaps mention that I spent most of my career submitting applications to the Coast Guard. I used to ship off submissions six inches thick for things like stability analysis and approval, pre-construction plan approval, etc. I know how to fill out a form.

 

[Jackdaw]

No, it is either required or advantageous for foreign travel - depending on where you are going.

My attempt at humor must have too understated. Next time I'll use 2 smiley faces.

For sure I understand the value of federal documentation. It is for those exact reasons our First 36.7 is documented.

When she arrived on Lake Superior with the Federal Documentation in process and required state regs in hand, I called USCG station Bayfield and talked to the duty officer. Explained the situation and asked his advice. He kind of laughed and said, 'you'll be fine'.

I'd be shocked if anyone was treated differently.

 

[Gunni]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

I negotiated documentation services through my lender (they were adding a lien), paid $325, signed the agent's paperwork and 20 days later I received my CG Documentation Cert. If you know Federal agencies, you know that expediting process agents often get things done right and fast as part of their service offering.

 

[dlochner]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

FWIW, the only time I was boarded by the USCG, they were more interested in the Y-Valve (we sail in a no discharge zone) and the state registration.

Once when clearing Customs the Customs officer didn't care about the documentation but did care about the NY state registration.

It is my understanding that the decision to cite violations is not left to the boarding party. The boarding party writes a report that is forwarded to the Sector Chief who makes a decision on whether to issue a citation. A reasonable Sector Chief wouldn't issue more than a warning for not having the documentation aboard. I know of one brokerage that routinely performs sea trials on new boats before they are documented or registered and the sector office is just down the street from the brokerage. The CG knows this happens and also knows it part of the brokerage's business to sea trial new boats. They leave them alone.

Since USCG Documentation is optional and state registration usually isn't, then you should be covered by the state registration.

Go enjoy your boat. If you are concerned about not having state registration numbers displayed, put them on a piece of wood and hang them on the pulpit until the USCG documentation arrives.

 

[Capt jgw]

I think, no time to look up, you can not have state registration numbers on a documented vessel.

Many states require state registration of documented boats. State numbers are issued, but you don't display them. Some other states will not register a documented boat, and a couple have no registration at all.

 

[BigEasy]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

Three years ago when I applied for USCG documentation, it took 3-4 months to obtain.
Documentation center told me they had a huge backlog of applications. I used the boat with state registration and was not boarded. I have the current state decal on the port & stbd bow, with no state numbers displayed.

 

[Roger Long]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

I've been talking with the government affairs guy at BoatUS about this. There is an effort underway, led by one congressman, to reform the NVDC. Copy of my latest email to BoatUS:

David,

I just checked the NVDC page that tells which application dates are currently being processed. Since I filed our application on August 4, 18 days ago, they have gained six days. That means they are falling 3 days further behind every day. Mathematically, that means no current applications will ever be processed.

The only thing showing up in the system for our boat is the lien release form. This was sent directly by the very large brokerage and was in the system within 12 hours of receipt. This supports the point you were delicately trying to make, the NVDC is just ignoring and knocking off the back of the desk anything not received from a documentation agent or brokerage that they do not deal with frequently enough to recognize the name.

I see that the BoatUS website doesn’t indicate how much you charge to handle documentation but there is currently a $100 off offer. I can only conclude that this is one of those “If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.” things. The broker wanted $450 for the work I did on our boat in 45 minutes. From a work standpoint, this is as absurd as the mailings and emails I get every year at document renewal time offering to help me with the “complex process” (one signature, one check mark, one date) for $100 and up. It’s never taken me more than 5 minutes to renew.

Clearly, what is being sold here is not work but access. Government obstructionism now creates windfall for private access providers. BoatUS has become part of that system so I guess I will contact them on Monday and pay for what they are now selling.

Roger

 

[Capt jgw]

Re: Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and

I would guess that on a new documentation, if the document hasn't been issued yet, it's not documented, and you could operate under your state numbers if you have them. That wouldn't work in one of the states that don't register documented boats.
On a transfer of documentation, the boat would still be documented under the old owners name, and I would assume that running out that way would be a big no no.
This is another argument against documenting your boat unless required by the bank or if you're going offshore. Perhaps the new annual fee is an attempt to get some of the boats off the roles. I don't think I will renew mine.
Commercial boats must be documented, but it appears they are getting those done.