Docking Under Spinnaker (ALAN)

[Dale Hemmerich]

Dock Sailors

Don, your original post sure brought up a debate. Perhaps another topic could be about the individuals who hardly ever leave their slip, but seem to be the most experienced sailors according to them. I'm sure everyone sees this in their marina.

 

[Alan]

Dale ;D

That's BRILLIANT!! ;D(HAHAHA) I've seen that sooo many times but thought better of bringing up the subject.Or maybe the one where the Mrs. is sitting at the helm while his lordship is barking orders from the bow.

 

[Alan]

Dale ;D

That's BRILLIANT!! ;D(HAHAHA) I've seen that sooo many times but thought better of bringing up the subject.Or maybe the one where the Mrs. is sitting at the helm while his lordship is barking orders from the bow.

 

[Alan]

Dale ;D

That's BRILLIANT!! ;D(HAHAHA) I've seen that sooo many times but thought better of bringing up the subject.Or maybe the one where the Mrs. is sitting at the helm while his lordship is barking orders from the bow.

 

[Dale Hemmerich]

Heeling

It kills me when they don't go out because the wind is blowing "10 knots" because the boat almost gets knocked down.

 

[s sauer]

Emergency Sail Handling

If the point is the value of being competent to handle your boat under sail alone in an emergency, the 'practice' session could be done safely without intimidating and/or damaging other boats or running a fire drill. Initially, pick-up or drop a mooring under sail; hoist anchor under sail; depart your raft-up under sail by backing your main.Basically, get an understanding of slow speed sail manuvering; jib alone, then main alone using the sail furthest from the wind.I've seen some competent and some not so competent sail into our Marina and some sail into their slip with mixed results. Having had to sail home with a water fouled fuel system and sail into the narrow Marina fairway between rock jettys, I tied up at the first open bulkhead rather than risk tacking and jibing 90 degrees to starboard then 180 degrees to port around an active gas dock pier , then head to wind up a narrow 70 yard fairway with slips on one side and secondary fairways with covered sheds on the other.It took less than an hour to clean out the water, add clean fuel, bleed and start the engine and motor into the slip without incident.

 

[Honeyman]

Poor Karl...

just doesn't get it, he thinks "he has us all on his side"!?. In what universe? Thank goodness for Bob W. from Palm Coast who at least proves that they are not all idiots down there. I thought my "dead stick landing" analogy was spot on the money since docking under sail is basically the same thing. Some people just don't get it, Jim Seamans, Denis in NC and Rich H seem to. My 3rd time out with my old 28.5 many years ago I ran the batteries down and had to bring the boat back into it's slip under sail at 2am. The people with my wife and I couldn't believe how easy I made it look. That was the product of lots of practice on a much smaller boat many years prior and having the confidence to give it a try with a "new to me" boat. Just another skill to have in your hip pocket, no "circus act"!

 

[BobW]

Nice, lively topic!

I don't think I read anybody trying to say that a sailor shouldn't know how to sail into a slip. So I'm going to start (now that I can get into and out of the slip pretty well under power) learning to sail in and out of the slip.I am, however, going to use Honeyman's analogy of learning a dead-stick landing under a canopy in a plane. I suspect that while he was doing that interesting task, the engine was running and an instructor was standing by to keep him from killing them both.Here's my plan (Don, Alan and other positive posters, please critique)1. Start by learning to judge my speed entering my fairway under power. Use my log to figure out how slow I need to be going at what point to just make the slip.2. When I have a handle on speed, start sailing down the fairway and figure out where to be spilling my sail to just make my slip. I'll be doing this with my ENGINE RUNNING in neutral - that's my safety brake.Now, 2 questions for Don, Alan and the other positive posters:1. Why use the sail farthest from the wind? Let me guess.... upwind I can kill thrust from the main by centering it, downwind I can spill the jib in a hurry by releasing the sheet.... or rolling it up.2. Can you give me some ideas on slowing the boat without using the engine? (or the end of the slip or other boats) I heard mention of stalling the rudder, backing sails, etc. and I'm interested in those types of tactice.Don, I re-read Peggy's post and your reply and I think you partially mis-understood her. She was drawing a parallel between powerboaters who 'wake' sailboats with sailboats who insist on tacking in narrow channels. Somebody earlier in the thread threw in the 'waking'.One of my early sailing experiences was watching a boat tack up the channel in Kemah, TX, on a busy summer day..... what a mess! He disrupted dozens of boats, power and sail, waved off numerous offers of help and just made a total mess of the whole harbor.Thanks in advance for your help, folks.Cheers,Bob s/v X SAIL R 8

 

[John Nantz]

Alan, Honeyman, et al

Are some people misunderstanding what I wrote? If someone wants to practice an engine out landing why does it HAVE to be in one's slip? Why can't it be somewhere else where the neighbors boat (or my boat) won't be damaged if "stuff" happens? Sure, insurance might be able to pay for the damage but then again maybe not. The damaged boat's owner would have to run around and get estimates and NOT get paid for the time and effort - how much would you pay for that?Then there is the "loss of use" during prime sailing time - how much would you pay the owner for loss of use?Then there is the gel coat that "almost matches" but not exactly, and then again there may be a problem with the gelcoat repair that might not show up for a year or so.An even worse scenario would be a crunching - but no sign of damage - of the neighbors hull. Delaminations internal to the fiberglass - no way to detect and no way to prove who was responsible.If the aluminum toe rail was crunched and needed replacing but is no longer made so would both sides have to be replaced with something so they match?Engine-out landings is NOT the same as docking one's boat in a slip because other aircraft aren't harmed by a slip-up and most aircraft will not significantly harm the surface of a runway. However, slamming into another boat, even accidentally, is a totally different issue.So why MUST one practice in the tight confines of a fairway with limited maneuvering room and in one's slip - why can't it be somewhere else where the damage to other peoples property isn't put at risk? When a pilot practices engine-out landings they do it with the knowledge that there is a very good chance the actual conditions, when they occur, will be totally different from those they practiced with. And I can vouch they will be!November-five-zero-eight-six-Romeo clear.

 

[Herb Parsons]

John

John,For me, it's not a matter of practicing for "just in case." It's a matter of doing what I enjoy, and knowing I have the ability, "just in case." I ENJOY sailing into the slip, just like I ENJOY sailing to the end of the lake and back. I treat the boats around me in the slip just like I treat the boats around me when I'm sailing any other place - I respect them, I stay aware of what I'm doing, and what my abilities are, and act accordingly.I've never had a close call with another boat while sailing into my slip, and have fewer close calls with the dock while sailing than while motoring. Early on, I had two pretty solild "dock contacts" while motoring, but I've never had one while sailing.Again, I sail. My motor is a backup for when I can't use my sails.Bob,Here are some tips on how I sail in. Keep in mind, this is how "I" do it. It's not necessarily what will work for someone else, but it's what works for me.First of all, when my boat is tied in the slip, I'm bow into the prevailing wind. That's the only wind I sail into. It's "prevailing enough", that I can count on its general direction about 70-80% of the time.I always use my mainsail when sailing in. On my boat, it's smaller than a jib, and easier to dump the wind. Also, my jib is hank-on, and my wife is the one that handles the sails, and she's more comfortable standing at the mast than at the bow, ready to drop the sail.As I said eariler, I come in on a beam or close reach (usually a beam reach), and before I reach my slip, I drop the sail, and coast in, against the wind. 100 ft was probably an over estimate, but I do drop the sail within 50 feet. The goal is to be moving no more than a knot or so when I turn into the slip.By the time the bow enters my slip, I'm barely moving. The biggest aid in all of this though, is the spring line. I drop it on the winch, assuming I'm going slow enough, and it's tied off short enough to stop me before I reach the end of the slip. If I'm going faster than I want, I hold it early on to slow me down.This method has NEVER failed me. I suspect one of the biggest reasons though, is that if the wind is too strong, or too light, or the wrong direction, I drop the sail and fire up the motor.Again, that's what it's there for, to move my boat when using the sails isn't the right option.

 

[Landsend]

Poor Karl? You mean rich Karl.

Seem like you old farts don't like opinions that don't agree with yours. Have I shake the old rear guard?Sure I've sailed to and from my dock many times. Both for fun and when I needed to, however the original post referred to coming in under spinakker. Which to me isn't the best choice of sails for this senario.Which I still think is dumb.As for your dead stick landing...what type of a stupid analogy was that? Incedently, as for poor, I was able to retire,cause I had the money when I was 44 years old...we're you!

 

[Don Guillette]

Nice, lively topic

Bob (Ventura): Your plan is exactly right. The whole idea is to be able to totaly control the action of a sailboat UNDER SAIL - to stop it, turn it, move it forward. even sail it backwards etc. Obviously, the place to practice in in open water and the sooner a sailor adds these things to his bag of tricks the better off he is. When you get to the point that you can do those things you'll have no idea how great it feels. Your controlling the boat instead of it controlling you.Upwind / downwind docking - Actually, you want to not only center the main but better still just push it over the side of the boat to act as a brake. Dousing the jib by just letting it go is the way instead of rolling it up. That takes too much time and you may need it again. The trick is figuring out when to douse it. I don't like sailing into a downwind slip and frankly would not attempt it on a strange boat because I would be unfamiliar with the timing. 10,000 to 15,000 lbs of boat creates a lot of momentum and a mate better know exactly where to knock off the forward motion of the jib.To slow the boat you can use the tactics you mentioned but nothing beats gentle "S" turns.The bottom line with this docking discussion is that it is nothing to fool around with. If a man is the least bit uncomfortable, even a little bit, he should not attempt it. To do otherwise is crazy.

 

[Don Guillette]

Pimple on the ass of progress!

Will this pimple on the ass of progress, who has changed his name to Landsend, ever go away? Hopefully, he has not cloned himself. Slick, this is not the Dr. Luara forum and stop calling listers old farts. Most of these old farts have forgotten more than you'll ever know about sail trim. No one cares how successful you are. Guys I run into, who can't wait to tell me how succesful they are - arn't, but I know that you are the exception. Either contribute something regarding sail trim or buzz off.

 

[Alan]

Don

I see he's getting under your skin. I can't recall a post from you where you started to loose it with someone. May I suggest that we simply ignore the arogance and rudeness and move on to others with some constructive thoughts, whatdaya think?

 

[Bob W.]

From The Poor Side of Town

Karl--REF your question. I'm not a member of the PCYC. Sold the Cat 25 when I moved to PC from Atlanta. Looking to buy another Catalina in Boyton Beach in the next few weeks. Is that your C30 setting by the bridge to the Sanctuary or are you at Harbor Side?Bob--

 

[Jon W.]

It is sailing isn't it?

I generally don't participate in discussions of opinion, but I simply can't resist this one.I thought that the primary means of propulsion for a sailboat was sailing. If you have the necessary skills to sail into your slip, up a channel or any confined areas safely, then you can do it no matter which sails you want to use. If you are responsible, and have insurance, then anyone who objects should probably keep it to themselves. I can maneuver my boat as well under sail as I can motoring, within the laws of physics. You just have to take into account different limitations when sailing. The issue is simply, can I handle my boat? If the answer is yes, then the question of what means of propulsion I'm using is irrelevant. Even when under power, you can get blown around, or affected by current. There is no way to eliminate all possibility of accidents whether motoring or sailing.I think this discussion is due to some people's lack of understanding, or underestimating other peoples ability to handle their boats safely under sail. Just because you can't control your boat doesn't mean others can't.I will say though, that I do not usually sail upwind in crowded channels. Not because I can't do it safely, but because other boats (powerboats?) do not always understand what I'm doing, and tend to get nervous and confused.

 

[BobW]

Hear, Here!

Jon, I think this forum (and others) could use more of your opinions and less of some of the others!I do think you killed the thread, though.... hard to believe anybody can say it better.Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Alan]

Jon W

VERY WELL PUT, wish I had thought to say it that way. Now that you've broken the ice, you should make a point of adding your voice to these posts,.....it's what this forum is all about.

 

[JohnS12875]

Let's end the debate, but talk technique

If you don't wanna do it, don't. No one's gonna force you. And you're not gonna force anyone to stop if they don't wanna stop. Me, I'll do it when it's right for me. Been doing it for years. If I damage someone else's property, I'll pay. (Haven't had to yet in 30+ years of sailing.)I wouldn't recommend practicing with a displacement boat in a tight marina. Start practicing by sailing up to bulkheads, empty docks, etc. You'll know when your ready to try more difficult docking maneuvers.

 

[Alan]

Docking Under Spinnaker.....

....is just like docking with any other sail up. The only difference is the AWA. Once the sail is removed the boat begins its slow down. Whether with jib or spinnaker, the key is knowing when to drop the sail and bleeding off excess speed if needed. Think of the rudder as the brake pedal on your car. It's known as the 'barn door' for a very good reason. Every time you move that rudder, the boat slows down. "S" turns are the same as pumping your brakes which slow you down with great control.