Docking Under Spinnaker (ALAN)

[Herb Parsons]

Karl

Karl, I don't usually do this on a public forum, but you're an ass.Would you call anyone of these people on here "stupid" to their face? I doubt it.I never said I sail in to my slip under spinnaker. I don't even own a spinnaker, and from the times I've crewed with others with one, I don't think I want one either. Too much work for too little benefit, unless you're racing.One of the writer's here stated "I don't know of anyone who WANTs to come in under sail, let alone a spinnaker", which is what I responded to. I stand by that response.The purpose of your doors on your Cessna are not to turn your plane. As you stated, you have other controls for that. The purpose of a sail (even a spinnaker) is to move the boat. On a sailboat, at least on MY sailboat, the purpose of the motor is to move the boat when unable to do so by sail. That's the ONLY purpose of the motor on my O'Day (my Coronado is a different story, since it also charges the battery). So, I use it the motor when appropirate, and the sail when approrpriate. Your analogy doesn't hold.If you don't have the skills to sail the boat, that's OK. If they have the skills to sail in with their spinnaker, that's OK too. However, you're blanket statement that anyone doing so is a "hot dog" and stupid is without merit.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Fwiw, from a stinkpotter...

For more than a year, while I (and my engine mechanics) were turning a 20 yr old floating bag lady back into a "queen," I had all kinds of engine issues. She was a twin engine boat...easy to "park" when both engines were working...not so easy when one was out. I spent several weekends learning how to back her into my slip with one engine out...but that didn't mean I thought I should kill an engine every time I came in. Iow, there's a difference between showing off and being able to do it in an emergency. So if you want to be ABLE to bring her home under sail if you have to, practice it when you're not liable to confound any other boats or put 'em at risk...but don't do it any time you want to just because you can.An aside...insisting on tacking up a narrow high traffic channel shows just about as much class and consideration for others as the idiot who wakes you in a powerboat.Just 'cuz you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD...That's my $.02 worth anyway...

 

[Herb Parsons]

Different Situations

Peggy said "insisting on tacking up a narrow high traffic channel".In my case, I don't have to tack at all. If the wind is blowing such that I would have to tack, I would motor in. The wind usually blows so that I'm on a beam reach approaching my slip. It's a straight shot. About 100 ft before my slip (depending on how much wind), I drop the main and coast to the slip. Then I make a hard turn to starboard, and into the wind, grab the spring line, and I'm set. It's a small inland lake (about 2 miles wide x 16 miles long), has no current, and folks that sail on it think 1 foot waves are "rough seas".That was the point I was trying to make. Karl out of ignorance, describes any situation of sailing into a slip as "stupid". Without knowing the situation, he can't know what he's talking about.I'd say that about half the sailors that sail regularly out here sail into their slips from time to time.

 

[Don Guillette]

From a stinkpotter

Peggy: Sorry to disagree with you but I have the option of docking either under sail or under power. It is at my disgression and the disgression of every sailboat skipper as to what method he uses. In my case and with a number of other sailors on this forum, we are not docking under sail " because we can or 'cuz we can do it". It is our option to dock either way. Only a fool would attempt to dock a sailboat under sail if he could not pull it off. There are a lot of sailors that will do dumb things but docking under sail is not one of them - it scares the dumbest off.I'm not sure what your talking about concerning class, consideration and docking under sail to merely show off. Where in this thread did you get the idea that people are docking under sail to show off (other than from some clown from FL) and who is talking about tacking dangerously up a high traffic channel? Do you think we would intentionally endanger ourselves and others around us?I don't understand your analogy about docking a power boat with one engine when you have two available. I assume your opinion is that all sailboats should dock under power only. That is riduculous. I bought a sailboat because I like the availabilty of two methods of propulsion. If one system does not work, I have the other method as backup but my choice is to use both equally, which I do. I normally don't clear docking under sail first with local power boaters, who I don't much like anyway. The main reason I'm not fond of them is because most of them out here think sailboats are a target for their wake as they pass by us as close as possable.Thanks for your .02 cents and now you have mine. Unfortunately, the gist of this thread has gotten way off course from its intended purpose and Herb Parsons is right that it takes only that one person in every crowd to do it. As far as I'm concerned this subject is closed and we should move on to something else.

 

[Honeyman]

Gee Karl...

I guess learning HOW to do a "dead stick landing" would be STUPID since we should all be reflecting on safe and proven techniques with a track record of success. This exercise was not telling people this is how we should all be sailing into our slips, only that it WAS possible if well thought out and planned in advance. Just like that dead stick landing that might save your ass one day!!! Lighten up Karl, Mr. "I own and fly an airplane"...BFD!

 

[RichH]

Calm down a minute ......

I learned to sail in the fast sailing large scows which hardly ever use an 'engine' to get back to or leave a dock. Upwind, downwind didnt matter, if it was blowing stink you just landed 'across' the fairway, dropped sails and then drifted across. You soon learn the 'tricks' of slowing a boat by 'stalling' the rudder by viciously sculling the rudder back and forth, etc., etc. If the wind died dead, just 'scull' the tiller/rudder, etc. Take ANY aviation pilot and what does he practice over and over and over .... dead stick landings; a landing with NO engine -- Preparation for the ONE time that he/she HAS to land without an engine. Its a requirement of that licensure. Should be a REQUIRED tactic when marine LICENSES are mandated. I still sail/race scows but on every damn keelboat Ive owned I ALWAYS practice a 'dead-stick' landing because Ive learned the hard way that sooner or later sometime you WILL need to do a dead-stick landing .... and you better be ready for it. This is called seamanship. I have a heavy weight full keeled cutter of nearly 30k lbs. displacement which before I totally cleaned the scum from the fuel tank would sputter and stall at the worst times possible (ie. storm). Only by prior 'practicing' could I bring it 'in' those times under sail only because I had the confidence built upon prior constant practice. I could have whimped-out and called for an expensive tow, waited around idly in storm conditions and endangered the tow boat and my crew on board.Not to intentionally patronize, but seamanship includes the ability to handle ALL eventualities ..... including landing at a dock or mooring with the sails up (includes leaving a dock/mooring too). Its perfectly allright to land with a spinnaker up!!! -- it all depends on your objective honest assessment of your ability. Too damn bad that those who shirk their responsibilites of attaining 'seamanship' are seemingly the loudest to cry when something goes wrong and require others to remediate their unwillingness to learn. God Almighty, what a wimpy risk-adverse bunch of limp 'wussies' we have for 'boaters' nowadays. "Mayday, Mayday Mayday, Help I just ran out of gas". Just think back to the days before the age of "Stink and noise" that EVERY sailboat worldwide was landed by sails ONLY (sometimes by making sternway) and many times in more crowded berths and anchorages than we have now. Sailing up to and away from a dock ... is FUN if you do it often. end of rant.

 

[Denis]

Basic Keel Boat

Just an observation: the Basic Keel Boat book that schools use and that came with my Hunter, dedicates a whole chapter to leaving and returning to dock under sail. I have sailed most of my life in dingies in the ocean and therefore never had the opportunity to learn to manoeuver around slips. When I recently bought a 26' that stays in a slip, I first practiced manoeuvring with the outboard in a fixed position(it has remote controls). Yes it is more difficult than with a movable outboard but with practice and understanding prop walk (thanks to many postings on this site on the subject) it has become routine. I then practiced coming in under sail. I have seen sevral people loose their engine and their return to dock turned into an adventure. After seing this I knew I should practice. No I do not do it everytime, and I could care less if anybody sees me or not.BTW I am also a pilot and Honeyman's analogy is dead on!

 

[Karl]

Now that I've have all of you on my side.

Seem none of you can take a joke...Personally, I don't give a damn if you sail your boat to the dock, motor your boat to the dock, row your boat to the dock or even walk on water to the dock. If you want to perform a stupid circus act while docking, it your boat...see you around.

 

[John12427]

Don

I think most of the neg is coming from basic misunderstanding, We are not coming into dock with spinnaker racing in 10 to 15 knot winds, yes that would be hot rodding, but tell me if you was upwind from the dock and the wind speed was 2- 5 knots who would not throw up as much sail as possible to get home!!!!JohnS/V Alcyone

 

[RichH]

I think the subject 'should' be kept open .....

lots of folks Im sure can add things like: how to make a boat sideslip more, how and what to backwind, how to heave to and drop down onto a dock/mooring, how to depart a dock without 'pushing-off, etc. etc. etc. Its not a circus act, but the finess of 'boat handling'. Hell, all this stuff is easy and safe to practice out in the open with a simple bouy as the 'target'. So, how hard is it to make your boat sail backwards and under control. How do you 'stall' so that the impatient stink-potters can safely pass you when youre tacking up a narrow channel, etc. etc. etc. Come on guys/gals lets hear what you do? I'm sure a lot of others can benefit. OK Alan, whats your procedure for landing with Spinn? I use a sock/chute-scoop and 'reef' with it to get the forward speed I need to keep contol by keeping enough water flowing past the rudder, sometimes I 'snap' a tiller to 90 degrees or more to act a 'water-brake'.

 

[John Nantz]

Seen Too Many "Fire Drills"

Sailing a boat into it's slip when it isn't necessary is of questionable value and for most marinas there can be significant damage.Once one has started down the fairway the maneuvering room becomes very restricted. All the fairways I've ever seen are fairly nearly the minimum width possible based on the adjacent boat slips so maneuvering one's boat, even under power and no wind, can be challenging.Now, maybe some of us have a smaller boat than what would be normal for their slip and fairway but typically one rents/owns a slip that is proportionally sized to the boat. Given this scenario then maneuvering room is constrained at best so why not do the practicing outside the fairway? Most marinas have areas which are more open that could be used for practice – like breakwaters, fuel docks, launching ramp fingers, etc. Why not use these facilities where there is far less likelihood of damage to other boats?Most of the boats I see that sail into their slip tend to have a “fire drill” as they come in. Crew frantically fending off trying to protect their boat and their neighbors boats. A couple months ago a nice 33-footer with a displacement of about 4,000 pounds (fairly light-weight "racer") sailed into their slip as they normally do and T-boned the concrete dock really hard. I didn’t hear if there were any injuries but neither the captain or crew came to the race “de-briefing” (beer and pretzels) meeting afterwards.I see people sailing into one’s slip a lot but I’m just not a believer that this is good everyday practice, and especially with a boat that displaces over a ton. Peggy – you said it really good!

 

[Alan]

RichH

A sock would work fine. We don't use a sock simply because we have a full crew. The trick is to know your boat and how fast you can bleed off speed as you approach the dock. Any time you can get it under a knot at the dock, you're doing well. Like you say, there are all kinds of tricks to help bleed speed. Also having fenders in place with dock lines already is important. How many times have I seen guys come into a dock with no dock lines on deck!!John Nantz, Sailing into a marina and docking by someone who doesn't know what he's doing could definately cause damage. THAT is exactly why you need to PRACTICE seamanship skills. Of course, practice out in the open to start with, until you learn those skills.

 

[Don Guillette]

I think the subject "should" be kept open

Alan & Rich H; Alan, have you ever seen such a response to a topic!! I never have and I can't believe it. A few folks have even been polarized to one side or the other. Rich H, I have no problem keeping the subject open because I think we can all get something out of it but I sure don't like the hate and discontent stuff because it just drives contributors, especially lurkers, away. I have never seen a topic where I did not get an idea to add to my sailing skills. Sometimes it wasn't even the topic but the context tripped my mind into thinking about something else.

 

[John Nantz]

But "Stuff" Happens

"Stuff" Happens. The guy I mentioned that T-boned the dock routinely sails into his slip and "knows all the tricks". But this time it was different.There was light air all afternoon and at the end of the race (finished first overall and corrected, I believe) they did their usual victory sailing into the slip. But this time, just as they entered the fairway the wind kicked up a "little bit". When they got to near their slip, near the end of the fairway, the wind picked up just a bit more and there was nowhere to go - at least this was the excuse they gave.The wind wasn't "supposed" to pick up - it was a drifter all afternoon, but it did. They were expert sailors but stuff happened.

 

[Jim Seamans]

Egads, My 2 cents

I've landed Cessna's using only the rudder and power - had to, to get my Commerical ticket. Landed completely under the hood - wasn't allowed to look up until the wheels were on the ground (what color is your underware). WHY? skill enhancement and showing that it could be done. Shit happens.Some of my most memorable sailing was in Casco Bay in Maine where I would sail single handed and have to pickup a mooring ( what engine ). Was taught how to control and plan for it. When I taught canoeing and sailing at a boys camp in Maine. Much went into what happens when you go over. Don't fight it, go ahead and go over and recover it. It floats!! (small Day sailors). It is going to happen.I would love to sail into my slip, my wife would have a cow!!!JimS/V Java

 

[Bob Watts]

"Just Do It !!!!!"

"Don and Alan" Good Topic! While sailing out of Pensacola Yacth Club with 2 crew members I lost the engine 15 minutes on approach to dock.With no restart I said, "We'll Just Sail In." With four eyeballs the size of golf balls looking at you what else can one do. We approached, rounded up, nosed in and the first mate stepped on the dock to a standing, horn blowing ovation. The point here is "TOO THINK."First comes the safety of the crew. Then yourself and then the vessel. There will be a time of equipment failure and you will be called to perform. Try the practice route and reward yourself with a "Cool One."

 

[Bob W.]

"We Can't Stop Laughing."

"Alan--" My first mate is looking over my shoulder at my previous comment and forcing me to write this rely when on our Cat 22 we sailed into the PYC practicing "No Motor Approaches." I was foward with a bow line. She was on the tiller. We came up 3 feet short of the pier end and started to drift backwards away from the new dock. With line over shoulder, I jumped to grab the piling not realizing it had been coated in creasote----You guessed it. From my ear down the chest and legs to my white boat shoes and on the insides of both arms total black. Talk about being "H O T" and break dancing around, "WoW I guess." Ok Honey, stop twist laughing and get up off the floor and fix dinner.

 

[Alan]

John Nantz

Yes! you are right, stuff DOES happen. If you want to be PERFECTLY safe, don't go out in your boat. In fact, don't drive to the marina. But of course, this is rediculous. Virtually everthing we do has some sort of risk attached. The best way I know to minimize risk is knowledge. Obviously that racing crew made some sort of mistake. We are all sailors and know how to depower a sail very quickly, dump the sheets, the sail luffs, no power. Someone missed the trigger. That is simply not a good enough reason to avoid sailing to your slip.Don, I have to agree, it has sparked a contraversy, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. My answer is very simple. If you don't like it, then by all means don't do it. On the other hand, if you feel up to the challenge, go for it. There comes a good deal of satisfaction knowing you have mastered a new skill.

 

[Bob W.]

"We Can't Stop Laughing."

"Alan--" My first mate is looking over my shoulder at my previous comment and forcing me to write this rely when on our Cat 22 we sailed into the PYC practicing "No Motor Approaches." I was foward with a bow line. She was on the tiller. We came up 3 feet short of the pier end and started to drift backwards away from the new dock. With line over shoulder, I jumped to grab the piling not realizing it had been coated in creasote----You guessed it. From my ear down the chest and legs to my white boat shoes and on the insides of both arms total black. Talk about being "H O T" and break dancing around, "WoW I guess." Ok Honey, stop twist laughing and get up off the floor and fix dinner.

 

[Karl]

Hi

Hey Bob,What part of Palm Coast do you live in?Are you a member of the PCYC? Your name sounds familiar.Karl