?DIY Powder Coating an Ugly But Working Barient Winch?

[rardiH36]

Firstly, Happy End Year Holidays to all the you/us/we forum sailors!

I'm seeking DIY powder coating advice before I start my current requirement.

My 33 year old Barient 19 ST cabin top winch still performs wonderfully. Unfortunately though it looks it age. Every time looking forward, it's right there in full view. It looks absolutely terrible. The original chrome over brass is very worn which gives it a rusting away look.

Checking around, re-chroming in our area can cost ~40% of a new winch. Doesn't pass my cost-benefit criteria.

I've read powder coating is an alternative. My Harken primaries are black powder coated as new from Harken.

Now to my query for the forum. For DIY powder coating, I've read that using your home's kitchen oven is not a good idea. So I've been looking around for a while on Craig's List etc for an alternative. Today rather than just sitting around during my wife's visit to her mother, I bugged out and found at the local SA store a very large counter-top oven that works and is big enough to easily fit the winch. Set me back a whopping $5. With this crucial piece of equipment safely tucked into my land vehicle, I risked the pre-Christmas chaos on the SF Bay areas' roads and headed to all of our second most favorite love/hate relationship store, Harbor Freight. There I bought a powder coating sprayer system and black powder paint.

Before I open the Harbor Freight box and before I remove remove the winch from my cabin top and separate the winch drum, is anybody able to convey their experiences and suggestions?

The powder coating instructions mention 400F temp. Viewing that the winch drum was probably cast at ~3X's this temp, I am probably OK. But any issues with the drum distorting with the 400F heat?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Consider that the powder coating will negate the grip of the narrow drum center, even replating the chrome does that. The winch manufacturer machines the gripping surface after plating/coating.

 

[rardiH36]

Neil:
re your: "Consider that the powder coating will negate the grip of the narrow drum center, even replating the chrome does that. The winch manufacturer machines the gripping surface after plating/coating."


Yes, also one of my considerations and why asking on SBO. Whereas most powder coated items that I have in my house come with a very rough finish (which would be great for adding friction with 2/3 wraps of line around a winch drum), the Harbor Freight instructions indicate that the result of their product is a smooth finish. Maybe re-coat the drum a few times then rough up with say 80 grit sandpaper?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Sure, whatever works. When the project is done and beautiful it still has to function. Good luck and please post pictures.

 

[woodster]

Neil:
re your: "Consider that the powder coating will negate the grip of the narrow drum center, even replating the chrome does that. The winch manufacturer machines the gripping surface after plating/coating."


Yes, also one of my considerations and why asking on SBO. Whereas most powder coated items that I have in my house come with a very rough finish (which would be great for adding friction with 2/3 wraps of line around a winch drum), the Harbor Freight instructions indicate that the result of their product is a smooth finish. Maybe re-coat the drum a few times then rough up with say 80 grit sandpaper?

why not take it to a machine shop and have it knerld before powder coating ...that should give it some traction .......

regards

woody

 

[Meriachee]

Powder coating is possibly not a robust enough finish. They state that the coating may be up to 10 times stronger as rattle can finishes, but that implies that it's on something like a head gasket cover in an automotive environment where there is occasionally a screwdriver dropped on it. Where there's a rope grinding over the face might present some wear challenges.

I'd offer that you go to the hardware store, get a piece of aluminum tube, coat it, put it in a vise and grind a rope around it for a while to see how well the finish of the coating takes it.

 

[Jackdaw]

Interesting, good luck!

The surfaces of winches are VERY carefully engineered to provide the correct amount of grip/slip to work well. Do not be surprised if the winch 'works' much differently when you are finished.

 

[Steve Dion]

Rardi:

Have you considered looking around for a used one. Minney's in Costa Mesa has many different brands of older winches that may be in good condition or used for spare parts.

 

[Panta Rei]

rardi,
You will find several small powdercoating job shops (in the bay area)that will do the job for you very inexpensively and likely less than what you paid for the harbor freight powdercoating gun.
I'm a paint engineer and have many years of powercoating experience. I have a few tips:

1. The term powdercoat for paint is like saying sailboat when describing your Hunter 36. It does not say much.
2. What you want is a polyester or polyurethane. Most importantly you don't want an epoxy as it will quickly degrade (chalk)with UV exposure.
3. Tell the powder coating shop that you want the finished coating to be tested for proper cure. This is done by wiping with a solvent (MEK) after the part has cooled. Improperly cure powders look fine but are not crosslinked and will soon wear away.
4. Match the gloss with a new powdercoated winch. Your powercoating job shop can give you paint samples so you can match the gloss to the Harken winch.
5. I would recommend bead blasting prior to coating but leave this for your job shop to tell you once the have your parts in their hands.

 

[Crackaloon]

If I were going to powder coat a winch I would mask off the actual whole section that contacts the rope for winching. I'm doubtful that area would hold up powder coated, and possibly lose some function. The larger diameter area probably would hold up for a while with a decent baked on coating. I would talk with or get some advice on powder selection and adhesion qualities for both materials being coated. When I ran a powder coating process there were acid preps and specific powders, material and cook times and temperatures. Each step, prep, actual material, part size and weight, even coating color and cook times effected the outcome.
I would probably never recommend powder coating. It's more suitable for an anodized aluminum part which actually hardens the surface.

 

[rardiH36]

Everybody:

Much thanks for the high knowledge and obviously time consuming responses. Exactly what I was hoping for with my post.

Panta Rei and Crackaloon: Your info was great to have. As with almost everything, there is a lot more than meets the first impression. However, I'm still inclined to give it the old DIY try. Crackaloon (and Meriachee), I will give thought not to coat the line grip part of the drum. How strong are your feelings that powder coating for this application is likely to fail? How for instance does Harken powder coat their winches to stand up to the abuse. I have in my crawl space the OEM powder coated Barient primaries that came original equipment with the boat. These still look great after 25 years of use! Also see my next paragraph to Steve describing better the winch's expected use. The cost of the powder coating sprayer kit was under $50. A few years ago I did call a powder coater somewhere in the east SF Bay. I recall that the price indication wasn't terribly attractive. Plus then I have to add on two trips of bridge tolls, gas, time and the aggravation of dealing with the almost always horrendous East Bay traffic snarl. And also I would forgo the warm glow of the DIY experience. Looking in detail at the HF powder paint that I bought, sure enough it is an epoxy type formulation. Here is polyester black textured paint. Might this be a better choice? http://www.shop.allpowderpaints.com/BLACK-TEXTURE-HIGH-DURABLE-PTFB32033.htm. For the small size of the piece, how important is the spray system? The one from HF has the electrostatic clamp connection and the instructions do say polyester/polyurethane powders are acceptable. Any must do tips for a first time DIY?

Steve: Getting a better condition winch also has been an option considered. I have many times scanned the internet and also visited local nautical flea markets over the years looking for a used ST smaller winch. Compared to used non ST winches, which almost can't be given away, used (and old) ST winches almost always command enough of a premium that most often the price doesn't make much sense compared to buying a new one. Minney's had a great deal a few months back on some out-of-production but new Lewmar's ST's for $500 (believe they were 40's) which I considered for a while. But they were too big for the cabin top location. As I mentioned, aside from appearance, my current winch works great. It is the one that would normally be dedicated to the main sheet that is routed back from the goose neck, mast base block and a deck organizer. In practice, I don't use the winch much because I have a 7:1 purchase and human pull on the sheet most often is enough. The winch is always covered when not sailing.

 

[Steve Dion]

Rardi:

You may want to contact them and see if they have one that needs new guts. Use you good parts with their bad parts......

 

[Chris Patterson]

I know I would love to see it work. I despise these old bronze Barients, but too many things to do now besides installing two new winches. Putrid old things. I know they are strong and will last, but ugly as hell. Kinda like wife number six.

Coat 'em and use 'em. You've got the stuff, I would have to try it. What could go wrong..

 

[Crackaloon]

To be honest, I have no idea what material they're using for powder coating. Mine are anodized aluminum, and I've seen chrome. Both of those are harder than the material underneath (chrome harder than bronze, and anodized surface harder than aluminum). I see online carbon fiber being used, I don't see powder coating for the contact surface. I will be keeping my eyes open now and noticing when something looks different. I'm curious!
I've seen other people and myself looking ahead and cranking while the winch did nothing but wear the line for need of another wrap. I don't know what kind of heat is generated there and if it would be enough to smear the powder coating off on the line leaving streaks.
The only powder coatings I've used were on outdoor boxes and covers...the boxes utilities use. Standing items that had to withstand the elements. On those, if there were any contact where the door, lock, or anything else repetitively rubbed like shrubs, it would go through the coating fairly quickly while anything that only had to withstand the elements would look beautiful for many years. I looked into powder coatings last about 15 years ago, but even then I was looking for weather resistance.

 

[Panta Rei]

To be honest, I have no idea what material they're using for powder coating. Mine are anodized aluminum, and I've seen chrome. Both of those are harder than the material underneath (chrome harder than bronze, and anodized surface harder than aluminum). I see online carbon fiber being used, I don't see powder coating for the contact surface. I will be keeping my eyes open now and noticing when something looks different. I'm curious!
I've seen other people and myself looking ahead and cranking while the winch did nothing but wear the line for need of another wrap. I don't know what kind of heat is generated there and if it would be enough to smear the powder coating off on the line leaving streaks.
The only powder coatings I've used were on outdoor boxes and covers...the boxes utilities use. Standing items that had to withstand the elements. On those, if there were any contact where the door, lock, or anything else repetitively rubbed like shrubs, it would go through the coating fairly quickly while anything that only had to withstand the elements would look beautiful for many years. I looked into powder coatings last about 15 years ago, but even then I was looking for weather resistance.

I tend to agree, you may be confusing anodized with paint.... I don't believe winches are powercoated but I'm no expert on winches. I had no luck searching for powdercoated winches on the net. Powdercoating is a thermoset plastic so it will not melt when heated. It certainly may abrade off quickly... Have at it, I'll be watching for your results this summer. Ask your supplier for powders with a low Taber Abrasion index.
see here for more info http://www.taberindustries.com/taber-rotary-abraser

 

[Crackaloon]

It appears that even the newest carbon fiber winches have anodized aluminum inserts unless the gripping surface is shaped in a new way. I'm really thinking the best bet if you're set on powder coat is to mask off the rope gripping surface. Because if your halyards, traveler, or any lines pick up black you'll be looking at more ugly...oh unless you powder in white I guess. I really doubt you'll find powder coat harder than metal.

edit: You don't mask with tape. It's a rubbery liquid stuff that dries quickly, but goes on more like Elmer's glue. edit again: you will have to mask every little thing you don't want coated.

 

[tricyclerob]

I personally have found from years of restoring motorcycles, powdercoating is not the "bullet-proof" solution many believe it to be.
Although not much of a worry in this application, it does get fine scratches in it very easily, like wiping a paint finish with a dry cloth.
Also anywhere corrosion, [or rust] can get under the surface, it will travel along under the powdercoat resulting in the powder coat coming off on big chunks.
Refinishing a previously P.C. surface can be a real pia, as where it's loose it comes right off, but where it's stuck, sandblasting can take forever.

Have you thought about taking it to a plating shop to have the chrome plating removed, down to the brass? Then polishing? [If the parts are in fact chrome plated brass]

This should cost very little as it's overnight in a tank and done, compared to new chrome, which involves stripping the orig. chrome, polishing, plating and more polishing. The polishing is the labor where the cost comes in.

This would work as long as it is chrome over brass, but if the parts are other metals, it may be chrome, then nickel, then copper. Are you sure it's brass you are seeing under the chrome?
Just another possibility instead of P.C.
robj

 

[Joe]

Are you sure it's brass you are seeing under the chrome?
Just another possibility instead of P.C.
robj

Right.... I noticed that he said chrome over brass........ highly unlikely that it is brass.... almost certain that it is bronze. Big difference.

 

[Meriachee]

It appears that even the newest carbon fiber winches have anodized aluminum inserts unless the gripping surface is shaped in a new way. I'm really thinking the best bet if you're set on powder coat is to mask off the rope gripping surface. Because if your halyards, traveler, or any lines pick up black you'll be looking at more ugly...oh unless you powder in white I guess. I really doubt you'll find powder coat harder than metal. edit: You don't mask with tape. It's a rubbery liquid stuff that dries quickly, but goes on more like Elmer's glue. edit again: you will have to mask every little thing you don't want coated.

Yeah, including yourself and the gun, the work area, the dog, but not the Beemer next door.

 

[Maine Sail]

Checking around, re-chroming in our area can cost ~40% of a new winch. Doesn't pass my cost-benefit criteria.

Check around some more. My dad gets antique car parts re-chromed all the time and I don't find it offensive.. He had a winch drum done for me a few years ago for about $60.00. Look in Hemmings the antique car mag and there are piles of ads for re-chroming companies.

My Harken primaries are black powder coated as new from Harken.

They are black anodized, HUGE difference.

Powder coating will not last long on a winch drum, unless of course you don't use the winch.......