Greetings fellow sailors: I am in the market for a roller furling genoa for my Catalina 27. I have looked at used and new and have received quotes that range from $900 from Cruising Direct and Tasker to $1500 from North and UK. What are the pros & cons that one should weigh when making such a decision. Has anyone had bad experiences with discount sails? Is service from a local loft really worth the extra $600? Any thoughts? Jim
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Tasker Sails
I had a Tasker main on my old 26' boat and was very happy with it. It was cut well and seemed high quality. I don't know whether it would have had the longevity of some of the higher end sails though. Good luck.
I had a Tasker main on my old 26' boat and was very happy with it. It was cut well and seemed high quality. I don't know whether it would have had the longevity of some of the higher end sails though. Good luck.
discount sails
it depends how you use your boat- cruising- racing- daysailing. we bought a new 150% dacron biradial roller furling genny from jack at saileast. it looks good, seems well made and sets well. we mostly daysail weekends, maybe with overnights or summer trips. a hard core racer might think he wants "better" sails- for my use it wasn't worth the extra bucks.
it depends how you use your boat- cruising- racing- daysailing. we bought a new 150% dacron biradial roller furling genny from jack at saileast. it looks good, seems well made and sets well. we mostly daysail weekends, maybe with overnights or summer trips. a hard core racer might think he wants "better" sails- for my use it wasn't worth the extra bucks.
Sail dynamics
Because virtually all sails are made in small lofts, essentially by hand, out of the same basic materials, it's fair to say that you'll get what you pay for. I'm sure there are a few exceptions to that rule on both ends of the spectrum, but from what I've been told by sailmakers you'll see better construction on the premiums and a few hard-to-see shortcuts on the discounts that cause them to sell for less money. Thats said, I have no experience with the discounters so take this with a grain of salt!
Because virtually all sails are made in small lofts, essentially by hand, out of the same basic materials, it's fair to say that you'll get what you pay for. I'm sure there are a few exceptions to that rule on both ends of the spectrum, but from what I've been told by sailmakers you'll see better construction on the premiums and a few hard-to-see shortcuts on the discounts that cause them to sell for less money. Thats said, I have no experience with the discounters so take this with a grain of salt!
Sails $
I think the last posts are essentially correct. You usually get what you pay for, so you have to decide what (and how much) you want to pay for. At the risk of over generalizing, my thinking along these lines is that the discount sails will have a decent shape that will be a compromise for a variety of conditions and boats. The useful life of the sail will be average for its cloth type. But a word of caution, years ago I bought some Hong Kong sails entirely built overseas including the cloth. I think the shape was a little substandard, and the cloth bagged out after just a couple of years until the 150% jib was really only good as a downwind sail. These were low end, and very inexpensive, although they needed replacing fairly soon. With the local premium lofts, you pay for a sail that can exactly fit your boat, and can be shaped for the wind conditions in you area. You have a number of material choices that can give the sails a longer useful life. One other thing you are paying for and may not need or use is the personal attention, advice, and “expertise” of the local sailmaker. As a point of reference, I am not very happy with the shape of my one-year-old Catalina’s sails. These are what I would call “budget sails”. Among other things, I think the main is too full, and the jib leach is not very flat. I feel this limits the boat’s pointing ability. I am intrigued by the “Cruising Direct” CD Radial jibs with their upgraded Norlam cloth. Looks like it might be a good compromise of value and performance.
I think the last posts are essentially correct. You usually get what you pay for, so you have to decide what (and how much) you want to pay for. At the risk of over generalizing, my thinking along these lines is that the discount sails will have a decent shape that will be a compromise for a variety of conditions and boats. The useful life of the sail will be average for its cloth type. But a word of caution, years ago I bought some Hong Kong sails entirely built overseas including the cloth. I think the shape was a little substandard, and the cloth bagged out after just a couple of years until the 150% jib was really only good as a downwind sail. These were low end, and very inexpensive, although they needed replacing fairly soon. With the local premium lofts, you pay for a sail that can exactly fit your boat, and can be shaped for the wind conditions in you area. You have a number of material choices that can give the sails a longer useful life. One other thing you are paying for and may not need or use is the personal attention, advice, and “expertise” of the local sailmaker. As a point of reference, I am not very happy with the shape of my one-year-old Catalina’s sails. These are what I would call “budget sails”. Among other things, I think the main is too full, and the jib leach is not very flat. I feel this limits the boat’s pointing ability. I am intrigued by the “Cruising Direct” CD Radial jibs with their upgraded Norlam cloth. Looks like it might be a good compromise of value and performance.
Experience
All of my experience is second hand. All the sails on my boat are original...from 1973! I finally bought a "new" main & jib last year - from an '83! Phil & John's comments are what I've heard as well; you get what you pay for. BUT...you do have to look at the value of your boat and the value new sails would add. How long are you planning on keeping this boat? How much is she worth now? How much with new sails? You certainly won't be able to add the full price of new sails to the current value, so keep that in mind. I did just fine using my main as a sail AND a hammock. I happened to get a spectacular deal on the new sails and am thrilled with how much better she performs...but I'm a cruiser at heart so speed ain't that big a deal to me. LaDonna
All of my experience is second hand. All the sails on my boat are original...from 1973! I finally bought a "new" main & jib last year - from an '83! Phil & John's comments are what I've heard as well; you get what you pay for. BUT...you do have to look at the value of your boat and the value new sails would add. How long are you planning on keeping this boat? How much is she worth now? How much with new sails? You certainly won't be able to add the full price of new sails to the current value, so keep that in mind. I did just fine using my main as a sail AND a hammock. I happened to get a spectacular deal on the new sails and am thrilled with how much better she performs...but I'm a cruiser at heart so speed ain't that big a deal to me. LaDonna
One more thing
Not to sound too self serving, but you might check out the site's chandlery on Doyle's sails. It's always good to get a bunch of prices and compare!
LaDonna
Not to sound too self serving, but you might check out the site's chandlery on Doyle's sails. It's always good to get a bunch of prices and compare!
LaDonnaI agree with LaDonna...
I need a full inventory of sails for my new (previously owned) C-22. I priced sails at just about every loft I could find. Each of them quoted me prices that would have cost more than I paid for the boat. That was nonsense to me. The other night I was flipping through a magazine and found an ad in the classified section for national sail something or another that "specialized" in Catalina sails. They sell a new main for under $400 which turns out to be half of what anyone else quoted. I figured why not? All I do is cruise the family and friends and will occasionally race for a beer. I am sure these sails would not please the serious racers, but for my purposes, they are perfect. I think the most important thing is to take into consideration what you plan to do with the boat. Cruise or race?
I need a full inventory of sails for my new (previously owned) C-22. I priced sails at just about every loft I could find. Each of them quoted me prices that would have cost more than I paid for the boat. That was nonsense to me. The other night I was flipping through a magazine and found an ad in the classified section for national sail something or another that "specialized" in Catalina sails. They sell a new main for under $400 which turns out to be half of what anyone else quoted. I figured why not? All I do is cruise the family and friends and will occasionally race for a beer. I am sure these sails would not please the serious racers, but for my purposes, they are perfect. I think the most important thing is to take into consideration what you plan to do with the boat. Cruise or race?
Check Around
You should have a lot of choices in your area that might fall between the two extremes you mentioned. One of the main advantages of a locally made sail is that you get something that's not only fitted to your boat, but optimized for your type of sailing and local conditions. Is it worth a few hundred $ to be able to have the sailmaker come to your boat, custom measure, and, after the sail is made, make those small tweaks that make a good sail a great sail? I think so.
You should have a lot of choices in your area that might fall between the two extremes you mentioned. One of the main advantages of a locally made sail is that you get something that's not only fitted to your boat, but optimized for your type of sailing and local conditions. Is it worth a few hundred $ to be able to have the sailmaker come to your boat, custom measure, and, after the sail is made, make those small tweaks that make a good sail a great sail? I think so.
Go middle of the road....
...with an online sailmaker like AirForce. You'll get a good quality sail at a price somewhere in between, (say $1200), that will give you good performance and durability. You will get all the consultations you want over the phone, but you will have to provide your own measurements. The excellent measuring guide makes it easy. I am also considering the CruisingDirect norlam radial genoa. The price is terrific, but I want to hear second and third opinions on quality and cloth before I buy. Geez, if I wait a bit longer I'll have enough saved to get what I really want. A North (or Quantam) Kevlar/Pentex laminate 150% with sausage bag (about $2000). But... do I really need that? The problem here is that more we learn the more complicated the decision becomes.
...with an online sailmaker like AirForce. You'll get a good quality sail at a price somewhere in between, (say $1200), that will give you good performance and durability. You will get all the consultations you want over the phone, but you will have to provide your own measurements. The excellent measuring guide makes it easy. I am also considering the CruisingDirect norlam radial genoa. The price is terrific, but I want to hear second and third opinions on quality and cloth before I buy. Geez, if I wait a bit longer I'll have enough saved to get what I really want. A North (or Quantam) Kevlar/Pentex laminate 150% with sausage bag (about $2000). But... do I really need that? The problem here is that more we learn the more complicated the decision becomes.
...just ordered from Doyle
I thought my original 1986 mainsail was going to be ok, but after spending some more time sailing and watching it "bag out", I am less than impressed with it. We are planning a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island in a couple months, so decided to order a new full batten mainsail from Doyle (bought from this site). I took the measurements (easy to do) and will let you know how it sails in about a month! Trevor
I thought my original 1986 mainsail was going to be ok, but after spending some more time sailing and watching it "bag out", I am less than impressed with it. We are planning a circumnavigation of Vancouver Island in a couple months, so decided to order a new full batten mainsail from Doyle (bought from this site). I took the measurements (easy to do) and will let you know how it sails in about a month! Trevor
Just like Christmas
Trevor, you & Karisa are going to feel like kids on Xmas morning! Have fun - don't sail too fast. LD
Trevor, you & Karisa are going to feel like kids on Xmas morning! Have fun - don't sail too fast.
LDSailmaker's are Lawyers who sew!
Having just gone through the process of buying my 1st set of replacement sails after 16 years for a 20 year old boat... just so you know where I'm coming from. So I’m only interested in cruising and durability. Spoke to and visited several lofts, discount and high end. All seem pretty much the same to me. Those who cut their own cloth do so on giant plotters using 15 year old software interfaced with newer design software which is probably the same across the industry. Those who buy cut panels contract out to someone who has the above equipment. Most have very elaborate machines for sewing, hydraulic feeders, the works! Since the cost of the machine isn’t the issue I assume it doesn’t matter. Labor for stitching one of these together isn’t much of a factor. There’s essentially only one supplier of thread worldwide. Cloth could be an issue, several manufacturers and I’m sure they have their share of quality control problems. Most lofts check the cloth for stretch before using; only one loft mentioned up to 40% is returned because it didn’t meet spec, and they weren’t the most pricey or biggest name. Those guys have the cloth made to their spec so it’s all good, right? So at best cloth could be a crap shoot. Don’t loose any sleep over it. From what I can tell your lead to believe the design is where it’s at. So usually the designer is a world known sailing jock. Think he’s interested in a perfect cruising sail for a Catalina 27? So why pay the big bucks for his salary. So your down to an extra row of stitches, whether the reinforcing patches are radial bias or not (oooh big deal here, like orienting the patches 45 degrees might use 5” more cloth so I’ll punish the buyer bigtime in total price; after all what other leverage do I actually have? Shame one you sailmakers.) And whether or not I hand sew leather chafing at wear points, something I can do myself. If I didn’t put furling on I’d get another 3 dozen trips to Block Island out of my 150. The main I let a sailmaker screw up putting on a leach line; was never any good after that. Good Luck I chose Cruising Direct because of price, delivery, and they’re somewhat local for me. I’ll let you know in about 6 years how I like the quality, I’m sure they will feel like a million bucks the 1st couple of years, otherwise I’ll let you know by May.
Having just gone through the process of buying my 1st set of replacement sails after 16 years for a 20 year old boat... just so you know where I'm coming from. So I’m only interested in cruising and durability. Spoke to and visited several lofts, discount and high end. All seem pretty much the same to me. Those who cut their own cloth do so on giant plotters using 15 year old software interfaced with newer design software which is probably the same across the industry. Those who buy cut panels contract out to someone who has the above equipment. Most have very elaborate machines for sewing, hydraulic feeders, the works! Since the cost of the machine isn’t the issue I assume it doesn’t matter. Labor for stitching one of these together isn’t much of a factor. There’s essentially only one supplier of thread worldwide. Cloth could be an issue, several manufacturers and I’m sure they have their share of quality control problems. Most lofts check the cloth for stretch before using; only one loft mentioned up to 40% is returned because it didn’t meet spec, and they weren’t the most pricey or biggest name. Those guys have the cloth made to their spec so it’s all good, right? So at best cloth could be a crap shoot. Don’t loose any sleep over it. From what I can tell your lead to believe the design is where it’s at. So usually the designer is a world known sailing jock. Think he’s interested in a perfect cruising sail for a Catalina 27? So why pay the big bucks for his salary. So your down to an extra row of stitches, whether the reinforcing patches are radial bias or not (oooh big deal here, like orienting the patches 45 degrees might use 5” more cloth so I’ll punish the buyer bigtime in total price; after all what other leverage do I actually have? Shame one you sailmakers.) And whether or not I hand sew leather chafing at wear points, something I can do myself. If I didn’t put furling on I’d get another 3 dozen trips to Block Island out of my 150. The main I let a sailmaker screw up putting on a leach line; was never any good after that. Good Luck I chose Cruising Direct because of price, delivery, and they’re somewhat local for me. I’ll let you know in about 6 years how I like the quality, I’m sure they will feel like a million bucks the 1st couple of years, otherwise I’ll let you know by May.
Discount vs. name Brand
Check the weight of the cloth from the discount guys. A lot of times it is the real light weight stuff. What kind of air do you usually sail in? I have always purchased name brand sails. They are willing to tailor the sails to my needs. I have more confidence in the product and they have no problem re-cutting it for me.
Check the weight of the cloth from the discount guys. A lot of times it is the real light weight stuff. What kind of air do you usually sail in? I have always purchased name brand sails. They are willing to tailor the sails to my needs. I have more confidence in the product and they have no problem re-cutting it for me.
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