Direct discharge head - illegal?

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Lake Pleasant AZ is a closed inland lake and all U.S inland lakes are NDZs. So yes indeed...you're most assuredly "fineable!" Some states have made it illegal even to have overboard discharge plumbing installed on a boat on an inland lake.

You have to be in open ocean at least 3 miles from nearest point on the whole US coastline to dump a tank legally...and you're just a wee bit too far from either coast to be able get 3 miles offshore without hauling the boat and putting it on a trailer or truck. So not only does the overboard lever have to be in the closed position, the system must be "secured." 33 CFR 159.7 (c) describes the acceptable means of doing that ("Type III" is a holding tank):
When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include -
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;

(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or

(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.
Btw...all this is in my book, available from the sbo.com online store (see link in my signature).

 

[AlastairLC]

Thanks Peggy. Not very trusting souls, are they!
I wonder how many boats in the Lake Pleasant Marina are in compliance. (?)

 

[AlastairLC]

Actually, Arizona's Handbook of Boating Laws just says the lever must always be in the holding tank position - no mention of padlocks, etc.

 

[Jim 5757]

Methinks the answer is yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it has to be locked out. I believe you have to be more than 10 miles offshore- hard to do in Arizona.
Oops! Peggy neat me to it again!

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Actually, Arizona's Handbook of Boating Laws just says the lever must always be in the holding tank position - no mention of padlocks, etc.

I was surprised to find that only one lake in AZ--Lake Powell--is on the EPAs list of NDZs...and it's there only because it straddles the AZ/UT state line. Then I looked at a map of AZ and saw that Lake Pleasant seems to be only lake in AZ big enough to be more than a wide spot in a creek which explains why AZ has never seen the need to petition the EPA to make any of its intrastate waters NDZ. However, federal law still makes it one:
40 CFR 140.3(c):
140.3 Standard. (a) (1) In freshwater lakes, freshwater reservoirs or other freshwater impoundments whose inlets or outlets are such as to prevent the ingress or egress by vessel traffic subject to this regulation, or in rivers not capable of navigation by interstate vessel traffic subject to this regulation, marine sanitation devices certified by the U.S. Coast Guard (see 33 CFR part 159, published in 40 FR 4622, January 30, 1975), installed on all vessels shall be designed and operated to prevent the overboard discharge of sewage, treated or untreated, or of any waste derived from sewage.

I wonder how many boats in the Lake Pleasant Marina are in compliance. (?)

Your original question makes it pretty obvious that you aren't. Only reason you'd ever have it open would be to illegally dump a tank.

I believe you have to be more than 10 miles offshore- hard to do in Arizona.

US territorial waters actually extend 12 miles but marine sanitation laws only require that you be 3 miles out...which is why you'll see references to the "the 3 mile limit." That is, everywhere EXCEPT the FL Keys. There the "3 mile limit" has been extended to 12 miles on the Gulf side. The enviro zealots have been pushing for years to make it 12 miles on the Atlanta side too, but haven't succeeded....yet.
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Dennis Kitchen]

But there's always the possibility you can run in to one--usually a "local yokel," not a Coastie--with I call an advanced case of Barney Fife Syndrome...

 

[uncledom]

I have a 1" thru hull from my macerator and use one of these to keep it closed at all times unless I'm in a position to legally use it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XU7JTE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
apply a small lock and your set.

 

[Charlie Jones s/v Tehani]

when I was cruising Florida, before I installed pumpout, the west coast of Florida was told 6 miles out. At least from Tampa south. 2009, 2010

 

[Jdub]

Once you decide to put something in, I would recommend the Airhead composting toilet. I've had one for a while now and it's pretty amazing. My wife loves it, which means she'll stay on the boat longer. Which means I'm a happy guy.

 

[jibes138]

But there's always the possibility you can run in to one--usually a "local yokel," not a Coastie--with I call an advanced case of Barney Fife Syndrome...

 

[flynhi4u]

Exactly. The old true gray area for me is those 'Jill' devices that let women pee standing up..... is that 'direct' urination?

You should have heard Cindy the first time she used a Go Girl. I was in tears from her response. Something so simple as going standing up that us guys take for granted was like this eye opening experience for her. Oh to have had that on tape!!!

Sam

 

[flynhi4u]

I spent a one very hot and miserably humid afternoon installing a new potty with deck pump out in our Hunter 20 before our trip to the North Channel last summer. Due to our boat issue it went unused but at least we met the Canadian rules. It will surely see service this summer.

Sam

 

[Guitar Sailor]

I had 1965 Islander that I didn't use the head on it. I had a self contained porta potty so I just poured liquid foam into the bowl and problem solved. When boarded, they saw no possibly way to use head

 

[Jackdaw]

@Peggie Hall HeadMistress ,

I assume that any boat built with a simple 'sea toilet', was done so before the regs changed in the 70s. Were operators/owners expected to bring these installations up to current MSD regs? I'm wondering because a sea toilet technically is not an MSD!

Which leads me to another question; are the larger (200 pax) cruise ships that are used on the Great Lakes TOTALLY non-discharge, or do they discharge MSD II treated waste?

thx!

 

[groggy]

I am hard pressed to believe that just disabling the seacocks wouldnt be enough to solve the problem, but honestly, its probably best to install a new portapotty in place of the 40+ year old head. Solves the problem with the CG, and you can use it in an emergency. Or a composting head, which I have heard good things about.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I assume that any boat built with a simple 'sea toilet', was done so before the regs changed in the 70s. Were operators/owners expected to bring these installations up to current MSD regs? I'm wondering because a sea toilet technically is not an MSD!

Actually, it is..."marine sanitation device" is defined in the CFR as "any equipment for installation onboard a vessel and which is designed to receive, retain, treat, or discharge sewage and any process to treat such sewage;
And yes, the new laws made it necessary for every vessel, regardless of age, with a marine toilet to have a holding tank or a USCG Certified treatment device. You'll find it all in 40 CFR 140.3 which you can download from here: PART 140--MARINE SANITATION DEVICE STANDARD

Which leads me to another question; are the larger (200 pax) cruise ships that are used on the Great Lakes TOTALLY non-discharge, or do they discharge MSD II treated waste?

On the Great Lakes--and also in many coastal waters, they have to hold. When it comes to sewage, gray water and even bilge water, large commercial vessels are subject to even stricter regulations than recreational vessels due to the huge volume of waste and the problems with invasive species in bilge water.

 

[Jackdaw]

@Peggie Hall HeadMistress ,
Which leads me to another question; are the larger (200 pax) cruise ships that are used on the Great Lakes TOTALLY non-discharge, or do they discharge MSD II treated waste?

thx!

Answered my own question...

§ 140.3 Standard.
(a) (1) In freshwater lakes, freshwater reservoirs or other freshwater impoundments whose inlets or outlets are such as to prevent the ingress or egress by vessel traffic subject to this regulation, or in rivers not capable of navigation by interstate vessel traffic subject to this regulation, marine sanitation devices certified by the U.S. Coast Guard (see 33 CFR part 159, published in 40 FR 4622, January 30, 1975), installed on all vessels shall be designed and operated to prevent the overboard discharge of sewage, treated or untreated, or of any waste derived from sewage.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Answered my own question...

You actually didn't. 40 CFR 140 and 33 CFR 159 apply only to recreational vessels. You'd have dig deeper into Title 46 and several other parts of the CFR than you'd want to find all the laws that pertain to large commercial vessels. And then there are the various state laws...Alaska's are some of the strictest...and within the last year SoCal's coastal waters became a NDZ for all commercial vessels over a certain size.

 

[Jackdaw]

You actually didn't. 40 CFR 140 and 33 CFR 159 apply only to recreational vessels. You'd have dig deeper into Title 46 and several other parts of the CFR than you'd want to find all the laws that pertain to large commercial vessels. And then there are the various state laws...Alaska's are some of the strictest...and within the last year SoCal's coastal waters became a NDZ for all commercial vessels over a certain size.

LOL Thats why I asked you in the first place! ;^)

 

[Ken Cross]

You actually didn't. 40 CFR 140 and 33 CFR 159 apply only to recreational vessels. You'd have dig deeper into Title 46 and several other parts of the CFR than you'd want to find all the laws that pertain to large commercial vessels. And then there are the various state laws...Alaska's are some of the strictest...and within the last year SoCal's coastal waters became a NDZ for all commercial vessels over a certain size.

Puget Sound in Washington State is also a NDZ now. However, Victoria BC (just across the straights) is dumping city sewage directly into the bay and always have.

Ken