In the last couple of years, my husband and I have chartered two different Catalina 30s on several occasions. Both boats steered well under sail (maybe a little more weather helm that I would have expected), but were difficut to keep on course while under power. The boat wanted to pull to one side or another and there was a constant vibration (more of a pulsing, actually) that could be felt in the wheel. It was very tiring. There was no wind (obviously), but there was a 4 - 5 foot swell on the quarter that seemed to make things worse. We used the main to steady the boat. Both boats were early 80's vintage. One had the two cylinder Universal and the other had the three cylinder. I don't know what kind of prop was used. This was obviously not a "high end" charter, but the maintenance seemed quite good otherwise. My question (finally) is whether this is common or does it reflect some sort of problem with these particular boats?
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Prop Walk
The condition you describe is called "prop walk". It is common on Catalina 30s and most other boats with inboard engines. It is caused by the propeller rotation pulling/pushing the boat in the direction of rotation (water wheel effect). In forward, the boat will pull to port. I'm sure you noticed the effect increased with engine speed. I don't know of any "cure" for this situation, after all it is a sailboat. When I motor for long distances I will use the auto pilot; much less tiring.
The condition you describe is called "prop walk". It is common on Catalina 30s and most other boats with inboard engines. It is caused by the propeller rotation pulling/pushing the boat in the direction of rotation (water wheel effect). In forward, the boat will pull to port. I'm sure you noticed the effect increased with engine speed. I don't know of any "cure" for this situation, after all it is a sailboat. When I motor for long distances I will use the auto pilot; much less tiring.
Boat Vibration and Prop Walk
Cruising Fundamentals by Harry Munns Page 14, Covers Prop Walk! The propellers pitch causes a propeller to pull the stern of the boat in the same direction the wheel would travel. Prop walk occurs whenever the propeller is turning but is most noticable in reverse. The most profound effects of prop walk come in the period between the time the boat is at rest and the time it has gained enough speed to have the rudder become effective , which is known as steerage way. Is this a commen problem when Chartering Catalina Boats?I have been Charting Catalina 27 and 28.5 boats past few years ! No vibration in boats. Good Sailing, Jack
Cruising Fundamentals by Harry Munns Page 14, Covers Prop Walk! The propellers pitch causes a propeller to pull the stern of the boat in the same direction the wheel would travel. Prop walk occurs whenever the propeller is turning but is most noticable in reverse. The most profound effects of prop walk come in the period between the time the boat is at rest and the time it has gained enough speed to have the rudder become effective , which is known as steerage way. Is this a commen problem when Chartering Catalina Boats?I have been Charting Catalina 27 and 28.5 boats past few years ! No vibration in boats. Good Sailing, Jack
prop walk
We've certainly experienced prop-walk and have learned to use it to our advantage when manuvering in tight spaces. This didn't feel like prop walk to me. For one thing it's not limited to one direction. The boats would pull to either side and it was very difficult to keep them tracking straight. One of the boats had a self-steering unit that attached to the wheel, but it couldn't keep the boat on track either. I'm sure the swell had something to do with the problem, but it wasn't *that* bad. If this is not a common problem, what do you think might have caused it? Rudder problems? Bad steering grear? Two vs three bladded prop? The reason this comes up is that we're now looking to buy a boat and the Catalina 30 is in our price range and we liked it a lot - other than this issue. We're two for two with this problem and I'd like to know if it's endemic before we contine. Thanks
We've certainly experienced prop-walk and have learned to use it to our advantage when manuvering in tight spaces. This didn't feel like prop walk to me. For one thing it's not limited to one direction. The boats would pull to either side and it was very difficult to keep them tracking straight. One of the boats had a self-steering unit that attached to the wheel, but it couldn't keep the boat on track either. I'm sure the swell had something to do with the problem, but it wasn't *that* bad. If this is not a common problem, what do you think might have caused it? Rudder problems? Bad steering grear? Two vs three bladded prop? The reason this comes up is that we're now looking to buy a boat and the Catalina 30 is in our price range and we liked it a lot - other than this issue. We're two for two with this problem and I'd like to know if it's endemic before we contine. Thanks
Play in the rudder?
On my tiller steering C-27 I had the same problem under power (less noticeable under sail), but it was obvious that there was some play in the tiller/rudder post connection which was resolved by making the connection tighter. Other people I know have had play in the rudder which was solved by removing the rudder and wrapping the rudder post with teflon. It is easy to check for this when inspecting a boat. Good luck.
On my tiller steering C-27 I had the same problem under power (less noticeable under sail), but it was obvious that there was some play in the tiller/rudder post connection which was resolved by making the connection tighter. Other people I know have had play in the rudder which was solved by removing the rudder and wrapping the rudder post with teflon. It is easy to check for this when inspecting a boat. Good luck.
Water Flow across rudder
I have an '83 Cat 30. I believe what you are experiencing is the water flow against the rudder. If the boat is stopped or going very slowly through the water, and you increase the engine rpm quickly, you will feel the effects of turbulence of water against the rudder which can be felt in the wheel.(the vibration) As soon as the boat is up to speed the vibration in the steering should cease. You will also notice that unless the tiller or wheel is locked the boat will begin an increased turn.(not tracking straight) Use the wheel lock and that will address this problem. I have not had any ill effect from this. My auto-pilot does not either. Great boat, don't let this little quirk keep you from purchasing one.
I have an '83 Cat 30. I believe what you are experiencing is the water flow against the rudder. If the boat is stopped or going very slowly through the water, and you increase the engine rpm quickly, you will feel the effects of turbulence of water against the rudder which can be felt in the wheel.(the vibration) As soon as the boat is up to speed the vibration in the steering should cease. You will also notice that unless the tiller or wheel is locked the boat will begin an increased turn.(not tracking straight) Use the wheel lock and that will address this problem. I have not had any ill effect from this. My auto-pilot does not either. Great boat, don't let this little quirk keep you from purchasing one.
Probably not prop walk
I have a 1977 C-30 & this definitely sounds like it could be 2 possible problems: 1. They have the wrong size propeller. Too large of a prop will cause rudder "flutter" at certain RPM's and it can be very strong. 2. Loose steering cables. If the steering cables that connect the wheel to the rudder are loose, then there will be play in the rudder, resulting in difficulty keeping a crisp, straight course. KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS NOT NORMAL!!! C-30's have excellent tracking ability (especially the fin keel design). My C-30 has NO difficulty in keeping a straight course with a minimal amount of intermittent steering to keep a course. The fact that you had a sea on the quarter tells me that the steering cables were probably loose. Everytime a wave pushed the quarter, the rudder play would cause the rudder to turn & susequently change course. A note about prop walk, too: The effects of prop walk will disappear when the boat is in motion. Think about it: The whole point of a sailboat's design is to take a force from accross the beam (like wind in a sail) and convert it to forward motion. The keel & rudder shape are designed to do this, but they are only effective when the boat is underway...like maybe 3/4 of a knot or more. The force that "prop walk" places on a hull will only be an issue when the boat is still in the water, or going extremely slow (like under 1/2 a knot or so). There is no reason presented here that should keep you from considering a C-30. If you're seriously looking for a boat, take a sail on a few C-30's and I'm sure you'll see that they are a fantastic boat and a tremendous value. If you need more detail, email me at allens@mathworks.com --Allen Schweitzer s/v Drambuie C-30 hull #632
I have a 1977 C-30 & this definitely sounds like it could be 2 possible problems: 1. They have the wrong size propeller. Too large of a prop will cause rudder "flutter" at certain RPM's and it can be very strong. 2. Loose steering cables. If the steering cables that connect the wheel to the rudder are loose, then there will be play in the rudder, resulting in difficulty keeping a crisp, straight course. KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS NOT NORMAL!!! C-30's have excellent tracking ability (especially the fin keel design). My C-30 has NO difficulty in keeping a straight course with a minimal amount of intermittent steering to keep a course. The fact that you had a sea on the quarter tells me that the steering cables were probably loose. Everytime a wave pushed the quarter, the rudder play would cause the rudder to turn & susequently change course. A note about prop walk, too: The effects of prop walk will disappear when the boat is in motion. Think about it: The whole point of a sailboat's design is to take a force from accross the beam (like wind in a sail) and convert it to forward motion. The keel & rudder shape are designed to do this, but they are only effective when the boat is underway...like maybe 3/4 of a knot or more. The force that "prop walk" places on a hull will only be an issue when the boat is still in the water, or going extremely slow (like under 1/2 a knot or so). There is no reason presented here that should keep you from considering a C-30. If you're seriously looking for a boat, take a sail on a few C-30's and I'm sure you'll see that they are a fantastic boat and a tremendous value. If you need more detail, email me at allens@mathworks.com --Allen Schweitzer s/v Drambuie C-30 hull #632
Unstable Steering
I have noticed the same effect you describe when motoring in my '86 C30. My boat also has a tendency to pull to one side due to prop walk. I have found that tightening the brake on my pedestal steering reduces "steering fatigue" caused by continuously having to correct heading. The only other things that may help are 1)get an autopilot to do the work for you, 2)get relief from another crew member (you don't have to personally man the helm, do you?), or 3)what's the hurry? Slow down and put the sails up.
I have noticed the same effect you describe when motoring in my '86 C30. My boat also has a tendency to pull to one side due to prop walk. I have found that tightening the brake on my pedestal steering reduces "steering fatigue" caused by continuously having to correct heading. The only other things that may help are 1)get an autopilot to do the work for you, 2)get relief from another crew member (you don't have to personally man the helm, do you?), or 3)what's the hurry? Slow down and put the sails up.
Don't thay all do that?
I've got a '78, and what you describe is seems pretty standard-unless you install the new and improved design rudder, then it's supposed to be a big improvement. Once the boat's moving I don't notice it (too much) John
I've got a '78, and what you describe is seems pretty standard-unless you install the new and improved design rudder, then it's supposed to be a big improvement. Once the boat's moving I don't notice it (too much) John
new rudder??
John, Do you know what year they started using the new rudder? How difficult/expensive is it to retrofit?
John, Do you know what year they started using the new rudder? How difficult/expensive is it to retrofit?
re: unstable steering
Steve, thanks for responding. Several people have mentioned prop-walk, but I have a hard time imagining that prop-walk would be that much of a factor when motoring along at 5 knots or so. Also, the tendancy to wander in either direction would seem to indicate that prop-walk isn't what we're experiencing. However, I'm no expert and perhaps my understanding of prop-walk and it's symptoms is faulty. In response to your suggestions: 1. We tried an autopilot and it had a harder time than we did. Perhaps a better autopilot would have done better. 2. There's usually the two of us and we trade off, but it's still very tiring. 3. Don't get me wrong!!! We're sailors at heart!! But we occasionally find ourselves in situations where we have 0-2 knots of wind (all day), an uncomfortable swell, and a considerable distance to cover. Motoring is a fact of life for us sometimes. Thanks again!!
Steve, thanks for responding. Several people have mentioned prop-walk, but I have a hard time imagining that prop-walk would be that much of a factor when motoring along at 5 knots or so. Also, the tendancy to wander in either direction would seem to indicate that prop-walk isn't what we're experiencing. However, I'm no expert and perhaps my understanding of prop-walk and it's symptoms is faulty. In response to your suggestions: 1. We tried an autopilot and it had a harder time than we did. Perhaps a better autopilot would have done better. 2. There's usually the two of us and we trade off, but it's still very tiring. 3. Don't get me wrong!!! We're sailors at heart!! But we occasionally find ourselves in situations where we have 0-2 knots of wind (all day), an uncomfortable swell, and a considerable distance to cover. Motoring is a fact of life for us sometimes. Thanks again!!
Sounds like a Combination....
of quartering sea/swell and (I suspect) imperfectly adjusted steering cables - plus the 'harder' water-flow when under power. My C28's Edson cable steering has a pronounced pull to port - most noticeable under power. I believe I have traced this to uneven tension in the the steering cables. I took the cover-plate off the tiller-post (ie, the emergency steering connection), and noticed the rudder is not fore and aft, but about 4-5 degrees to port, when the wheel is centred. The obvious effect of this is, if you're relying on everything being aligned, to be applying (initially) either too much or too little helm. Then you have to make what are basically, additional, unexpected wheel movements to compensate for your "misjudgement". It is much less noticeable under sail, but I think the effect generally would be magnified by quartering seas and swell, which are tedious at the best of times. My hypothesis is based on the fact that the 'pull' is noticeable when motoring in flat water, too. So if you didn't notice the effect in those conditions, then I'd tend to blame it all on the frustration one gets after several hours of corkscrewing around. Anyway, I'm going to squeeze into the lazarette and practice my sailor's vocabulary on the steering quadrant ,etc - I've given up using it on the sea!
of quartering sea/swell and (I suspect) imperfectly adjusted steering cables - plus the 'harder' water-flow when under power. My C28's Edson cable steering has a pronounced pull to port - most noticeable under power. I believe I have traced this to uneven tension in the the steering cables. I took the cover-plate off the tiller-post (ie, the emergency steering connection), and noticed the rudder is not fore and aft, but about 4-5 degrees to port, when the wheel is centred. The obvious effect of this is, if you're relying on everything being aligned, to be applying (initially) either too much or too little helm. Then you have to make what are basically, additional, unexpected wheel movements to compensate for your "misjudgement". It is much less noticeable under sail, but I think the effect generally would be magnified by quartering seas and swell, which are tedious at the best of times. My hypothesis is based on the fact that the 'pull' is noticeable when motoring in flat water, too. So if you didn't notice the effect in those conditions, then I'd tend to blame it all on the frustration one gets after several hours of corkscrewing around. Anyway, I'm going to squeeze into the lazarette and practice my sailor's vocabulary on the steering quadrant ,etc - I've given up using it on the sea!
Prop Walk is Prop Walk
Cable adjustment will not make the boat "pull". Mark you have perfectly described Prop Walk. I used to have a c28 with a 3 blade fixed and if I was just coasting along at 2 kts and hit full throttle prop walk would try to take the wheel out of my hand. The prop walk that they All have, some (3 fixed) worse than others, will be constantly pulling the stern to starboard so bow to port. Adjusting your "King spoke" for a perfect vertical is fine for sailing weather helm reference, but it will allways be off some when motoring. That's one of the few reasons why I finally went with an AutoProp. Quartering waves on the stern is the worst for course keeping. So yes Mark the answer to the original question is probably just a combination of things. Prop walk is allways there doing its thing at 1kt or 5 and stern quartering waves make it harder so IF the steering cable is at all loose it can be a real pain to hold a course. I know that's what Auto tells me when I flip him on. Stan "Christy Leigh" c320 #656
Cable adjustment will not make the boat "pull". Mark you have perfectly described Prop Walk. I used to have a c28 with a 3 blade fixed and if I was just coasting along at 2 kts and hit full throttle prop walk would try to take the wheel out of my hand. The prop walk that they All have, some (3 fixed) worse than others, will be constantly pulling the stern to starboard so bow to port. Adjusting your "King spoke" for a perfect vertical is fine for sailing weather helm reference, but it will allways be off some when motoring. That's one of the few reasons why I finally went with an AutoProp. Quartering waves on the stern is the worst for course keeping. So yes Mark the answer to the original question is probably just a combination of things. Prop walk is allways there doing its thing at 1kt or 5 and stern quartering waves make it harder so IF the steering cable is at all loose it can be a real pain to hold a course. I know that's what Auto tells me when I flip him on. Stan "Christy Leigh" c320 #656
You have a point, Stan
I fitted a 2-blade Autoprop to my C28 (High Time, #337) for all the reasons you did, I guess - and the prop walk is noticeably diminished, especially when going astern. Of course prop walk is very noticeable when whacking the throttle from low to higher power - as we do when making use of it to aid manoeuvring. I don't think it's effects are very noticeable once the boat has settled, though, and I note Cindy's observation that the yaw seemed to be to both sides. Prop walk could be a factor, but I doubt it's the main one. I still get the pull to port even with the Autoprop, and I'm sure it's mainly the steering cable. But you're right, I think, that there's probably some difference between the right steering-system balance for sail, and that for power. (BTW, I reckon that Autoprop is one of the best things I've done to improve boat performance all-round).
I fitted a 2-blade Autoprop to my C28 (High Time, #337) for all the reasons you did, I guess - and the prop walk is noticeably diminished, especially when going astern. Of course prop walk is very noticeable when whacking the throttle from low to higher power - as we do when making use of it to aid manoeuvring. I don't think it's effects are very noticeable once the boat has settled, though, and I note Cindy's observation that the yaw seemed to be to both sides. Prop walk could be a factor, but I doubt it's the main one. I still get the pull to port even with the Autoprop, and I'm sure it's mainly the steering cable. But you're right, I think, that there's probably some difference between the right steering-system balance for sail, and that for power. (BTW, I reckon that Autoprop is one of the best things I've done to improve boat performance all-round).
New Rudder Cost
I installed a new rudder that I got from Catalina. It has more of an elliptical shape and it's not quite as deep as the older design. It wasn't cheap: $977 + shipping for the rudder + a new steering radial wheel from Edson ($175) + a LOT of hacksawing to get the old rudder out. I haven't launched yet, so I'll have to let you know how the new design performs.
I installed a new rudder that I got from Catalina. It has more of an elliptical shape and it's not quite as deep as the older design. It wasn't cheap: $977 + shipping for the rudder + a new steering radial wheel from Edson ($175) + a LOT of hacksawing to get the old rudder out. I haven't launched yet, so I'll have to let you know how the new design performs.
Re: New Rudder Cost
Hi Allen, Thanks for the information! This is very helpful. Do you have any web links to more info about rudders for the Catalina 30? I checked this site and the Catalina Yachts web site and couldn't find anything. Is this something that we'd have to contact a dealer about? I'd sure be interested in hearing how your project works out for you.
Hi Allen, Thanks for the information! This is very helpful. Do you have any web links to more info about rudders for the Catalina 30? I checked this site and the Catalina Yachts web site and couldn't find anything. Is this something that we'd have to contact a dealer about? I'd sure be interested in hearing how your project works out for you.
To Cindy:
I don't know of any web links that have info about the rudders, but I'd suggest calling Catalina Parts Dept. I remember the guy telling me that there were 3 designs they used for rudders at various times, and the last one was designed to specifically decrease the flutter that happens with larger motor/larger prop combinations. It makes sense that they'd change the design over time. The original C-30's like mine had an Atomic 4 with a small 12" 2-blade prop. Later ones had much larger diesels with much larger props & prop turbulence. My rudder project is officially done as of last weekend. WHAT A CHORE!! One of the all time lows in my life happened after I spent 2 days hacksawing the rudder off. Once I finally got it out I was SO PSYCHED to fit the new rudder in. Can you imagine my frustration when I realized I had to dig a 2' deep hole so I could get the new rudder in? I joked with they guy next to me saying that I never thought I'd need to get a shovel for my boat...Who knew! Anyway, I'm so glad it's finally in! I can't wait to launch to find out how it performs. I'll post the results when I launch in a few weeks. --Allen
I don't know of any web links that have info about the rudders, but I'd suggest calling Catalina Parts Dept. I remember the guy telling me that there were 3 designs they used for rudders at various times, and the last one was designed to specifically decrease the flutter that happens with larger motor/larger prop combinations. It makes sense that they'd change the design over time. The original C-30's like mine had an Atomic 4 with a small 12" 2-blade prop. Later ones had much larger diesels with much larger props & prop turbulence. My rudder project is officially done as of last weekend. WHAT A CHORE!! One of the all time lows in my life happened after I spent 2 days hacksawing the rudder off. Once I finally got it out I was SO PSYCHED to fit the new rudder in. Can you imagine my frustration when I realized I had to dig a 2' deep hole so I could get the new rudder in? I joked with they guy next to me saying that I never thought I'd need to get a shovel for my boat...Who knew! Anyway, I'm so glad it's finally in! I can't wait to launch to find out how it performs. I'll post the results when I launch in a few weeks. --Allen
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