Dedicated starting battery

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Hi Mainesail,

I am planning to install a dedicated starting battery. I already have a new echo charger for this project. What I am thinking about is where to put it, and what size battery.

I have a 1984 Catalina 36. I like the space under the aft bunk, just to port of center (opposite the water tank).

It occurs to me that the small tractors that use these Kubota D850s use relatively small batteries. I was thinking of one of the larger garden tractor wet cell batteries; building a plywood box that is contoured on the bottom to match the hull, glassing it up, and glassing it to the hull.

I'd then run it directly to the starter, run the engine panel off it, and charge it via the echo charger.

Comments? Particularly on the battery size idea.

Thanks,

jv
 

Zaphro

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Mar 20, 2008
101
Catalina 34 Mayport
I've been kicking around the same idea. If you go for it I'd be interested details and pictures. My dad had a kubota 3 cylinder diesel tractor in the '80s and it did have a smaller battery. I've been thinking full size battery, but the smaller one makes perfect sense if your just starting the motor.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
If someone could find out the battery size used in those tractors, that would be a huge help!
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,954
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Maybe a Plan B

Enough starting amps available is what counts, regardless of other engine installation.
Biggest problem you might find is setting up that extra battery for servicing.

I and a friend with similar size boats went thru this exercise about 20 years ago, and determined that an AGM was best since it had to live where it was nigh impossible to add water to a flooded battery. Further, it does not take a very large battery to start a 3 cylinder diesel.

Since our house banks are all flooded type, we charge the emergency/starting battery up several times a year, and then just monitor it regularly. An echo charger scheme might be ideal, but the AGM loses so little charge from sitting that we have decided not to have the additional complication.

We run our boats full time off a large house bank of about 250 AH. In each case the "hidden" battery is an Optima spiral cell.
 

hewebb

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Oct 8, 2011
329
Catalina Catalina 25 Joe Pool Lake
I purchased one of the battery packs that I keep on the boat and plugged in while docked. When I lost my batteries, I borrowed one from a slip neighbor and it started the engine easily. Engine is a two cyl diesel.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Hi Mainesail,

I am planning to install a dedicated starting battery. I already have a new echo charger for this project. What I am thinking about is where to put it, and what size battery.

I have a 1984 Catalina 36. I like the space under the aft bunk, just to port of center (opposite the water tank).

It occurs to me that the small tractors that use these Kubota D850s use relatively small batteries. I was thinking of one of the larger garden tractor wet cell batteries; building a plywood box that is contoured on the bottom to match the hull, glassing it up, and glassing it to the hull.
Yes a smaller battery than a group 24 will start a M-25 but you'll still want a battery with 400 CCA or so. The only problem with this is that it gives you a limited use battery that can't do much else. I tend to prefer a group 24, 27 or 31 quasi deep cycle (flooded Group 24, 27 & 31 are not truly a deep cycle battery) or even a dual purpose battery that could also act as an emergency house bank if necessary. Going with a smaller battery pretty much precludes this.

I'd then run it directly to the starter, run the engine panel off it, and charge it via the echo charger.

Comments? Particularly on the battery size idea.

Thanks,

jv

Are you planning on having a battery switch? There are many ways to switch this that can allow a dedicated start bank but that still allows the use of either bank for either engine starting or house loads or both in an emergency situation..
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I probably spend way too much time thinking about batteries and charging on my boat than I should.

I currently have two banks of two Group 24 75AH deep cycle batteries. They are all old, bought in 2005 and 2006, and have been a bit abused, and are down to very little capacity. I plan on buying new Duracells from Sam's Club this week, per your thread on that topic.

Installed is a 125 Amp alternator with external, incharge 'smart' regulator.

There's a Pathmaker 3 bank automatic combiner (with a remote panel that has become somewhat flakey).

There's a yet-unistalled Xantrex echo charger, intended for the engine battery.

There's 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch on the panel that is used to select which bank supplies the breaker panel.

At the moment the alternator is connected directly to bank 1, and the engine panel and starter to bank 2. When the alternator brings the voltage up, the combiner joins banks 1 and 2.

Initially I had one Group 24 battery per banks 1 and 2, and a dedicated engine battery. When my house loads increased, I used the space for extra house batts and dropped the engine batt.

I want the dedicated engine start battery. I have run my house batts flat twice already, accidentally, and needed a jump to start.

Per another reply, the location selected for the engine battery is pretty easy access, and flooded cell maintenance will not be an issue.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I probably spend way too much time thinking about batteries and charging on my boat than I should.
Based on what you wrote below about killing your bank so flat you can't start your motor, perhaps not enough thought..;)

I currently have two banks of two Group 24 75AH deep cycle batteries. They are all old, bought in 2005 and 2006, and have been a bit abused, and are down to very little capacity. I plan on buying new Duracells from Sam's Club this week, per your thread on that topic.
If using them as one bank why not wire them as such?

Installed is a 125 Amp alternator with external, incharge 'smart' regulator.
Good but with 300Ah of capacity in total the most your alt can feed that bank is about 75A max. This means your alt will certainly run cool..

There's a Pathmaker 3 bank automatic combiner (with a remote panel that has become somewhat flakey).
These are nothing more than an adjustable ACR relay. They were certainly buggy...

There's a yet-unistalled Xantrex echo charger, intended for the engine battery.
You'll want to remove the Pathmaker when you install the Echo

There's 1/2/BOTH/OFF switch on the panel that is used to select which bank supplies the breaker panel.
Good

At the moment the alternator is connected directly to bank 1, and the engine panel and starter to bank 2.
This makes little sense unless it does not pass through the 1/2/BOTH or is "direct wired" which unless for the alt is not recommended.

When the alternator brings the voltage up, the combiner joins banks 1 and 2.

Initially I had one Group 24 battery per banks 1 and 2, and a dedicated engine battery.
When you say "dedicated start battery" do you mean directly wired to the starter with no switch? This would not be a good idea....

When my house loads increased, I used the space for extra house batts and dropped the engine batt.
A battery monitor would have been a good investment at this point so have some reference pint as to when to recharge. It would still be my #1 recommendation. Alternatively, using an accurate volt meter, recharge when the bank hits 12.2V under your "average" house loads.

I want the dedicated engine start battery. I have run my house batts flat twice already, accidentally, and needed a jump to start.
We need to get on the same page in terms of bank lingo. When I refer to a "dedicated engine start battery" I am referring to a battery that only ever does starting purposes and is tied directly to the starter via an ON/OFF switch. It is used to start the motor ever time and the house bank only does house loads..

With a 1/2/BOTH switch you can have a house/everything bank and a reserve/starting/everything bank. With the 1/2/BOTH scenario the reserve bank would only get used IF you killed the house bank. With a "Dedicated" start battery it gets used every time you start your motor. Do you want to wire a "reserve bank" or a dedicated start battery"?

I would urge you to invest in a good battery monitor so you can cycle your new bank appropriately. A decent bank of four group 24's should easily start a small Universal diesel right down to less than 20% of capacity so you were really killing your bank. Battery monitors are cheap insurance and can add to bank life..
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Good but with 300Ah of capacity in total the most your alt can feed that bank is about 75A max. This means your alt will certainly run cool..
I have measured up to 100A at onset of charging, but it quickly drops, and falls constantly even during the bulk charging phase. But that's perhaps another thread.

These are nothing more than an adjustable ACR relay. They were certainly buggy...
The unit itself seems O.K., it's the over-priced remote panel that is flakey; the switch has intermittently failed, and since it's a potted module, impossible to repair (easily, anyway).

You'll want to remove the Pathmaker when you install the Echo
I will not use the Pathmaker for this engine battery, but will keep it for combining house banks 1 & 2. Is that what you meant?

True, at the moment the starter wire is connected directly to bank 2, no switch. The panel is powered from this lead. I guess I should install a disconnect?


We need to get on the same page in terms of bank lingo. When I refer to a "dedicated engine start battery" I am referring to a battery that only ever does starting purposes and is tied directly to the starter via an ON/OFF switch. It is used to start the motor ever time and the house bank only does house loads..

With a 1/2/BOTH switch you can have a house/everything bank and a reserve/starting/everything bank. With the 1/2/BOTH scenario the reserve bank would only get used IF you killed the house bank. With a "Dedicated" start battery it gets used every time you start your motor. Do you want to wire a "reserve bank" or a dedicated start battery"?

I would urge you to invest in a good battery monitor so you can cycle your new bank appropriately. A decent bank of four group 24's should easily start a small Universal diesel right down to less than 20% of capacity so you were really killing your bank. Battery monitors are cheap insurance and can add to bank life..
I am seriously considering the monitor.

To clarify, yes, I want a dedicated engine starting battery, one that is used exclusively to start the engine, is recharged by the echo charger, and is never used for house loads.

And, while I'm not completely happy about the two banks of two each 24's, that's the way the boat is set up now, and I will likely keep it that way, at least through the end of the season.

I do have a high current disconnect that I can use for the starting battery.

Update: just returned from Sam's Club with four Duracell 24's, and an EU1L, the largest L&G battery they had: CA @ 32º = 335, CCA @ 0ºF = 275.

My only reservation on this is the draw for the glow plugs. My recollection was that this was about 20A. Since I installed a high current relay right at the engine for the glow plugs, I only need 10 to 15 seconds of glow to start.

In addition, I'd appreciate your view of low voltage disconnects for the banks.

Thanks!

jv
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
(you would think that in 2012 an EE would have a schematic capture tool on his pc, no?)

For your consideration, here's my plan:


(Sorry for the quality of the schematic, I sketched it out during a meeting at a hotel in Santa Clara this week).

  • Sw. is a high-current disconnect switch
  • A is the alternator
  • S is the starter
  • House is 4 Group 24 batteries
  • Engine is a dedicated starting battery
  • CB is the main panel breaker (100A)
  • The dashed line encloses the elements of the OFF/1/2/BOTH switch

Normal operation is Sw. = closed, 1/2/BOTH set to "1" - meaning switch 1 is closed, switch 2 open. Echo charger keeps engine batt. charged, doesn't allow discharge of engine batt into house or house loads.

Emergency operation:
  • House dead, need comms., etc.: 1/2/BOTH to 2;
  • Engine batt dead: Sw. = open, 1/2/BOTH to BOTH. Optionally open CB if house is weak too.

Comments?
 
Jun 7, 2004
36
Catalina 320 Middle River, MD
If what is wanted is a "Dedicated Starting Bank" I highly recommend the Blue Sea dual circuit switch in place of the OFF/1/2/both switch. When I arrive I turn it ON and when I leave I turn it OFF unless I have a 12V load I want to run. No thinking: it's On or it's Off. For me, no thinking is a real plus.
My alt is directly connected to the house bank and the start bank is charged with an ACR. Again, no thinking.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
If what is wanted is a "Dedicated Starting Bank" I highly recommend the Blue Sea dual circuit switch in place of the OFF/1/2/both switch. When I arrive I turn it ON and when I leave I turn it OFF unless I have a 12V load I want to run. No thinking: it's On or it's Off. For me, no thinking is a real plus.
My alt is directly connected to the house bank and the start bank is charged with an ACR. Again, no thinking.
The only time these are an inconvenience is in a failure situation. They don't allow for isolation of a potentially bad bank and force you to potentially combine a good bank with a bad one in the event of a failure.. They are very simple but also very limited in redundancy..

What JVISS has shown is a dedicated starter with all the redundancy still retained. In normal use one switch turns to ON and one switch turns to #1... When your done both switches go OFF.....

While less "simple" it allows full isolation of any bank in the system and the ability to power all loads off either bank if necessary.

This is a simplified version:
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Battery history

Maybe I should have started a new thread, but this is a continuation of this same project.

I replaced the house batts, and though I haven't yet rewired, I'm using them as a single bank.

Catalina 36: the current physical setup is that two 24Ds were in the forward, starboard seat, and two in the after starboard seat, along with the Pahtmaker, ground bus bar, and shore power charger. The forward 24Ds are bussed together and are connected to the Pathmaker and ground with two rather long, perhaps 6' to 8', #4 AWG wires. The alternator output is connected directly to one post of one of the aft 24Ds. In addition, the regulator sense lead is connected to the terminal on the Pathmaker that is connected to that battery.

When I pulled the old batts, the two forward ones, while being a year newer than the aft ones, are completely shot. I mean, they won't hold a charge at all, dissipating a full charge to less than a day with no external load applied. The CCA measurement is less than 100.

I suspect that because of the long wires to these batteries that they were chronically under charged.

I can't physically get all 4 24D batteries in the same space, so I am considering solutions.

First, the Pathmaker is going, and I'm putting in a couple of plus busses in its place: one to gang battery cables, the other to gang loads and charging sources, with the shunt for the monitor between them.

Second I was thinking that I should put much larger gauge wire going to the forward seat. But then I had a thought: what if, instead, I simply use #4, but make sure each and every battery is wired directly to the plus and minus bus, and every such wire is exactly the same length? Then, finally, put the regulator sense wire on the battery plus bus. That way I should have the same resistance to every battery, and the charge and discharge will be equally shared by all four batteries.

Comments?

Thanks,

jv
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maybe I should have started a new thread, but this is a continuation of this same project.

I replaced the house batts, and though I haven't yet rewired, I'm using them as a single bank.

Catalina 36: the current physical setup is that two 24Ds were in the forward, starboard seat, and two in the after starboard seat, along with the Pahtmaker, ground bus bar, and shore power charger. The forward 24Ds are bussed together and are connected to the Pathmaker and ground with two rather long, perhaps 6' to 8', #4 AWG wires. The alternator output is connected directly to one post of one of the aft 24Ds. In addition, the regulator sense lead is connected to the terminal on the Pathmaker that is connected to that battery.

When I pulled the old batts, the two forward ones, while being a year newer than the aft ones, are completely shot. I mean, they won't hold a charge at all, dissipating a full charge to less than a day with no external load applied. The CCA measurement is less than 100.

I suspect that because of the long wires to these batteries that they were chronically under charged.

I can't physically get all 4 24D batteries in the same space, so I am considering solutions.

First, the Pathmaker is going, and I'm putting in a couple of plus busses in its place: one to gang battery cables, the other to gang loads and charging sources, with the shunt for the monitor between them.

Second I was thinking that I should put much larger gauge wire going to the forward seat. But then I had a thought: what if, instead, I simply use #4, but make sure each and every battery is wired directly to the plus and minus bus, and every such wire is exactly the same length? Then, finally, put the regulator sense wire on the battery plus bus. That way I should have the same resistance to every battery, and the charge and discharge will be equally shared by all four batteries.

Comments?

Thanks,

jv
Just pull the neg off one set and the pos off the other. This will do a much better job of keeping them in balance.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Long post (sorry), academic discussion (for nerds like me)

Just pull the neg off one set and the pos off the other. This will do a much better job of keeping them in balance.
First, thanks, Mainesail, I appreciate and value your input on this. Please excuse if I go on, as there is and academic interest in the topic in addition to the practical.

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not sure I entirely agree, or perhaps I don't understand.

In order for me to parallel the batteries and pull the plus and neg off opposite ends of the bank, I'd need to add a cable from the forward location. Not so bad. But, there will still be two "inside" batts, and two "outside;" certainly not as badly out of balance as before, but not completely unbalanced either. No? But in practical terms, I can see intuitively that this seems close enough.

I drew a circuit that included the resistance of the cables, and modeled the batts in charge mode simply as current sources sharing the available charge current, just to evaluate the individual battery terminal voltage as a function of charging current and wire resistance. For the conventional parallel circuit pulling the plus and minus from the opposite ends of the bank you see a symmetrical imbalance, outside to inside, but only a very small difference: at a total charging current of 40A and a regulation voltage of 14.4V from the post of Battery 1 to the charging system ground, you see 14.3088V across batteries 1 and 4, and 14.3064 across 2 and 3. The difference is, I think, negligible. The important observation is that the regulation voltage is low, because of the loss in the return path from the batteries - all due to wire resistance. In the analysis I used 4 AWG and lengths of 6' and 1/2' for the long and short jumpers; long ones were necessary due to the forward location of two of the batteries. The lesson is, I guess, is to adjust the regulation point so that you get 14.4 (or your chosen absorption voltage) across the terminals of the battery. This might mean increasing the set-point measured from the sense to the regulator ground by 0.1V or more ('though I haven't done the math).

From an academic perspective, the scheme of star-wiring all the batteries to the plus and minus bus bars has a lot of appeal. Assuming a robust enough bus bar, and good crimp connections for the cable lugs, , one could have superb balance among the batteries even with minimally adequate wire size, since they are all the same gauge and length. In addition, once could isolate a failed battery very quickly, since only a single connection need be broken to do so, without having to move or reroute other paralleling connections (not that that's an occurrence anticipated at other than infinitesimal probability). Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the regulator sense line being attached directly to one of the battery plus terminals would represent very closely the battery voltage of all of the batteries, assuming that they are identical batteries of same age and use (as they are in my case); there would be no voltage offset in charge sensing as there would necessarily be in the conventional paralleling scheme. And this is the greatest advantage. However, we see that the voltage drop in the return path dominates this analysis.

Conclusions:

a. conventional paralleling is fine, as long as you pull plus and minus from opposite corners of the bank, per MS's advice;
b. absorption set point should be set based on a measurement across the battery terminals, to take out the return path drop.
c. a thought - perhaps rotate the batteries, inside to out, annually.

Regards,

jv
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Nothing wrong with a "star" connection but it can be difficult to implement accurately on a boat. On paper it seems great but in a boat in practical use not so much... As the bank grows the star wiring will keep better balance but the cables must remain with the same resistance. This is hard to do with that many connections...

Sticking with "cross connection" your middle set of parallel jumpers will be longer and a neg or pos wire will need to be run to the forward compartment but you'll still be a LOT better balanced than if end connected because all current is forced to travel through the entire bank...

I've even done this with port/starboard banks. Neg on port bank and pos on starboard. They stayed very well balanced. You need large wires for the round trip distances but it still works.

P.S. Be sure to label each battery in the bank as Battery 1, 2, 3, 4 and take baseline CCA measurements with your Argus and save them. This is your CCA rating to compare against. I would wait until they are broken in though...



Here's a bank wired and situated as yours may be. Note that there is no inside or outside battery but you may need to get creative.

 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, MS. Great pics, too!

Here's a bank wired and situated as yours may be. Note that there is no inside or outside battery but you may need to get creative.
I apologize for perhaps introducing some confusing terminology, or misusing it. By inside/outside I was referring to batteries of a 4 battery bank that were either connected to the load or not - so, 1 and 4 outside, 2 and 3 inside. Regarding the pic you attached, I would call the foreground batteries 'outside,' and the background batteries 'inside.'

Mine are situated such that they are physically in two groups of two - two forward, two aft. I'm sure you know, you had a C36, right? :)
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, MS. Great pics, too!



I apologize for perhaps introducing some confusing terminology, or misusing it. By inside/outside I was referring to batteries of a 4 battery bank that were either connected to the load or not - so, 1 and 4 outside, 2 and 3 inside. Regarding the pic you attached, I would call the foreground batteries 'outside,' and the background batteries 'inside.'

Mine are situated such that they are physically in two groups of two - two forward, two aft. I'm sure you know, you had a C36, right? :)
But follow the cables in the pic the current flows through the entire bank just s in teh drawing above it.. It is just a matter of where you connect them to each bank. There is room to get the wires on there in the C-36 so the current flows across the entire bank..
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
But follow the cables in the pic the current flows through the entire bank just s in teh drawing above it.. It is just a matter of where you connect them to each bank. There is room to get the wires on there in the C-36 so the current flows across the entire bank..
It would only be technically so that the 'current flows through the entire bank' if the batteries were in series. In parallel, as they are, with very short wires, all about the same length, they will act nearly as one. If you separate them into pairs joined by longer wires they will un-balance, resulting in the outside pair seeing one thing, and the inside another. But, at the end of the day, it's not a big deal; it's the accuracy of the regulator sense voltage that matters.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,674
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
It would only be technically so that the 'current flows through the entire bank' if the batteries were in series. In parallel, as they are, with very short wires, all about the same length, they will act nearly as one. If you separate them into pairs joined by longer wires they will un-balance, resulting in the outside pair seeing one thing, and the inside another. But, at the end of the day, it's not a big deal; it's the accuracy of the regulator sense voltage that matters.

If you wired them like this then I would agree.



Wiring as I've shown, the banks stay in very close balance even when separated by a decent distance. You can always eek another level of perfection but for what we are doing this works very well and the analyzers can measure the differences between an end connection and cross connection as the batteries age..

Just last week I had a customer over my shoulder while I was testing his massive bank of improperly connected GEL batteries. Before even putting the analyzer on I pointed to the batteries and told him "This one will be in the best shape, then this one, and this one will be in the worst shape." They were end connected and the meter showed exactly what I predicted it would..... The last battery in the string still passed muster. The second one failed and the battery connected to the loads failed badly. There was a 400 CCA spread between the far battery and the connected battery. He thought I was a freaking psychic but only after he thought I was crazy after describing how it mattered how the batteries were connected. We corrected the wiring but sadly it was too late for the $$$$$$ bank....