Decision? No, wait, this is a decision. No….

[Roger Long]

OK, if I’m making you all crazy, think how it looks from my end.

My back is getting better. I finally got two nights of real sleep and through a day without any significant pain. I woke up this morning feeling like my brain was also starting to work properly again.

I decided it couldn’t hurt to start the engine briefly. Sure enough, no oil pressure after 4-5 seconds so I shut it down. I then poured in the half quart of oil recovered from the drip pan (no sign of water BTW) and the oil pressure alarm then just gave a brief chirp on startup. On restart, it just flashed the light for half a second as it always has.

I had another conversation with Rick at MBAP and then used my oil pump out rig to determine the oil level which was a bit over an inch below the end of the dipstick. At Rick’s suggestion, I walked up and got another quart of oil which I put in bringing the dipstick up to the 1/3 level. I cleaned out the drip pan and spread new oil pads under it. An hour later, there was not a drop visible. This pretty much confirms that it is not a gravity leak.

I then ran the engine at high idle and 2100 with the dipstick out. I couldn’t feel any flow from the tube or pressure when I put my thumb over it. That gave me the idea of putting a small square of Saran Wrap over the end of the tube, not wrapped tightly. Running the engine for a minute and right up to 2100, the wrap wasn’t dislodged or loosened. This is not a crankcase pressure issue.

The first guy I talked to about this then showed up to return my manuals and I invited him aboard for a talk. He had a good explanation for the delay in finding out about parts and has figured out a way to start pulling the engine out tomorrow and take care of the boat while I go to Maine and until it can be hauled. We bonded. I decided I like the cut of his jib and he’s got the job.

I think that he, Rick, and I are all sure now that there are no piston or cylinder issues. The current mystery is that there is still not a drop of oil under the engine after a few minutes running. So, tomorrow morning, he’s going to have his yard boat standing by and ready at the yard and we are going to take a long enough run out into the bay to get the oil good and hot. I’ll fill it to the normal level this afternoon. Unless the oil alarm comes on, we’ll then run it up to the yard and the engine should be out in a day or two. Since the pistons and cylinders appear to be sound, the chances of this engine going back in the boat have soared.

It’s clearly an oil pump pressure driven leak and not gravity or crankcase pressure. I think the scenario that created all the confusion is this:

I was pumping oil out the seal (or somewhere) all during previous day's long run. In one of life’s coincidences, I was probably minutes from having the oil alarm go off.

The next morning, when the oil was thick and cold, the marginal oil level and some air sucking into the sump intake was enough to cause the oil alarm chirp that prompted me to look in the drip pan. Rick says that, when the oil alarm goes off on these engines, they really are nearly out of oil, down to less than a quart.

My first reading of half on the dipstick was probably just an error caused by haste, panic, and the oil on the side of the tube. When I checked an hour later and the dipstick was dry, I assumed, and have been posting, that oil continued to run out. After looking at the manuals and collecting all this additional data and opinions, I think that unlikely.

I filled the engine to the normal level this afternoon and repeated my plastic wrap test. Running for a minute at 2100 the dimple I made of the wrap pushing it slightly down into the tube wasn't even blown out. There is zero crankcase pressure.

I’ve been in and out of the cockpit locker and engine space headfirst three times and spent quite a bit of time bent over the engine. My back feels good but just tight enough to tell me not to do any more today.

Things are looking up.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Great news! Back problems are a royal pain, and unless you've had them, no one really knows how discomforting it can be. To anyone else, you look just fine, but...

All the best,

Stu

 

[jeb21851]

Lady Luck

Roger, glad to hear that things are starting to come together for you and that you are once again moving forward. I have faith that you will overcome this and look back on it as just a stormy patch on your journey!!!

 

[Charles Erwin]

Roger

Your message above says that you think oil pressure is the culprit.

Oil pressure will decrease as the motor warms. Normal operating temperature is probably about 105F since yours is seawater cooled. Oil pressure is highest when the motor is cold and will decrease very little as motor temperature reaches this (relatively low) normal operating temperature.

I imagine someone must have explained how (high) oil pressure could cause a shaft seal leak - especially so since you are not presently seeing a leak when oil pressure is highest. If not - then is seems a shame to commit to a haul boat - motor in/motor out to repair something no one can identify.

Please continue to conduct the testing you have outlined. Please also consider discussing the diagnosis I sent in E-mail to you yesterday with Mack Boring and your selected mechanic.

Charles

 

[Shoaldrafter]

back problems, no help for Roger

It was said, "Back problems are a royal pain, and unless you've had them, no one really knows how discomforting it can be. To anyone else, you look just fine, but..."

Years ago now, I got an inversion contraption. That is one of those things you see in health appraratus catalogs that you strap your feet into and flip up side down. It actually helps by stretching the back. But it takes up space in my den.

You do not find these things at your local gyms and health clubs. Special exercises do help also, but you need to find the right teacher, the local trainers just do not understand.

So, have we determined tha Roger needs a new oil pump? Or at least a new seal around the oil pump?

After all the motion today, trying to repeat tomorrow may not best choice. At my age, which I gather is less than Roger, every other day works better.

Good to hear some good news and positive comments. But we need to find him a heated pool...

Ed K

 

[Roger Long]

Your message above says that you think oil pressure is the culprit.

No. It means that the leak is driven by the quite necessary oil pump pressure and not by gravity. This doesn't mean that the oil pressure is abnormal.

I'm not seeing any oil under the engine yet from some very short runs but that doesn't mean a lot because it's going into the bell housing first and it may take a while and a certain amount before it starts to show up under the engine.

Flow is a function of both pressure and velocity. True that oil pressure goes down a bit as the engine warms (not very much, I used to fly and the oil pressure gauge was in my scan, looked at about every 30 seconds). The hotter oil flows through small restrictions much more easily. I tried pumping the oil out of my engine once when it was cold because I couldn't start it. I could hardly move the hand pump handle. Hot, I can do it fairly easily.

It may take a full day of running hard like I did just before this happened to pump out most of the oil through the seal. We might not be able to run enough tomorrow to see a significant amount of oil. It's primarily a double check to be sure there isn't another leak path we've missed and to have a good fresh leak inside the bell housing to aid diagnosis when we take it apart.

There is oil in the bell housing where it's not supposed to be (at least in that quantity). Most of the oil ran out of the engine via that route. Reason enough for me to have the engine pulled and find out what's going on.

Just looked back at your email. The breather hose was only kinked because I disconnected it and pulled it out too far to blow through it for diagnosis. That gave me a false diagnosis. When installed, there are no possible kinks or restrictions. Even if the air separator I have filled up with oil and clogged, the hose fits on the engine loosely enough that I probably would have blown off before oil could be forced past the seal. It was one of the first things I looked at and the oil level was no where near the element.

 

[Allan12210]

Roger, do you have an analog oil pressure gauge? From reading your post, I'm thinking not. You can buy a cheap gauge and put it in place of the existing sender at least temporarily to verify the pressure. Typically a guage you want is a 1/8" NPT. That should match the sender thread. If you have a Yanmar (can't recall), then you might need a bushing adapter to convert from metric to English pipe thread. I got mine at an auto parts store (where you should be able to find a gauge as well). This may give you some diagnostic information as opposed to the pas/fail that the alarm is providing.

Good luck.

Allan

 

[Johnb]

Roger, as the owner of a 28 year old 3QM30 I have a keen interst in the outcome. (I also have back problems sometimes but that is another issue).

Looking at the manual I would not expect much oil pressure drop when the engine warms up because the pressure is controlled by the oil pressure regulator valve. I also don't see how the oil pump could pressurize the rear oil seal.

From what I can see in the manual, if oil is coming out of the bell housing it must be coming through the rear seal.

 

[Benny17441]

There had been no previous mention of oil leaking out from the bell housing and I had wondered where the oil had gone. You have now ran the engine and report no significant compression blowby and no evident oil leak. Those are two good signs. Tomorrows test should tell the tale. If possible run the boat with the engine wide open for an hour. Then check the oil level and the oil viscocity. If there is no significant loss of oil then that engine should be good to go but if on the other hand the level is significantly down the a repair is at hand. Good luck.

 

[Roger Long]

I also don't see how the oil pump could pressurize the rear oil seal.

I doesn't and that was one of the points I clarified with the MBAP guy yesterday. It's also why I just told someone that excess oil pressure is not a suspect. The oil seal does not form part of the pressure containment aspect of the system. Oil simply overflows the rear bearing and is contained by the seal as it drains back down into the oil pan sump, same as most other oil flow paths.

If however, the seal is compromised, some of the oil flows out into the bell housing instead of down into the sump. It actually is a gravity leak but, for the oil to get up there to leak back, the oil pump has to be pushing it up there which means the engine has to be running.

I just looked and there is a small spot of fresh oil just under the bell housing drain on the new oil spill pads I spread under the engine. The small amount of oil from perhaps 3 minutes total running time yesterday had time overnight to flow down along the bell housing surfaces and out of the engine.

The oil seal is also an air seal in reverse. The brief low pressure alarm that prompted me to look under the engine and discover the leak may have been because of the seal letting air leak back in so as to drain the oil line back to the sump. Normally, the alarm stops as soon as the engine starts turning, even before it fully catches on its own. The oil lines stay full for hours and days. Letting air in at a damaged seal may let the lines empty out overnight.

I just thought to go up and start the engine and the oil light and alarm went off half a second after I pressed the starter button. If there is leak back, it's either not happening at full oil can leak back more easily when hot and thin after a hard day's run. The oil I put in yesterday was cold when the engine was shut down so may have stayed in the lines.

 

[Roger Long]

no evident oil leak.

Not the same as no leak given the long path the oil has to travel to appear and the very short 2-3 minute total running time yesterday. There is a spot of oil under the engine this morning.

Stay tuned to the OLC, the oil leak channel.

 

[jibes138]

Opportunity

Roger,
Just a suggestion. Oil is pretty cheap compared to pulling the motor. Since it is contained and you aren't polluting the environment, you might want to consider running the boat back up to Maine by adding oil at a frequent rate (the rate of loss) and sucking up the oil that leaks periodically so it doesn't get in the bilge. Since the motor is running fine other than the leak it seams you could limp home especially since you are now in good sailing territory and likely won't need the motor for a lot of the trip. If you take the C&D canal and down the Delaware Bay the trip from the tip of Jersey to Block Island should only be 2 days at the most. With any luck and the southeast prevailing winds it will be mostly downwind or a broad reach.
I'm sure dealing with these issues at home would give you time to relax, regenerate your bank account, recuperate your back, and MaineSail will probably offer some advice.
On another note. Have you thought about writing a book to generate some cash? Your trip has been most enjoyable and you have a great writing style, with your photos you could write something that most sailors would want to read. Maybe this site will let you offer it up like Peggie's book on odors or Don's book on sail trim? We have really enjoyed your account of the trip and having done a good stretch of it myself it brought back lots of memories. Thank you.
Best of luck to you.
Dave

 

[Shoaldrafter]

WOLC - the oil leak channel

I used to have a car that took a quart every 500 miles. I drove that way for at least a year before I could afford an better one.

But in this case if it is fixible, then the issue is resolved. Old boats, Old engines always have issues. Each issue needs to evaluated and decided upon. No decision is still a decision.

The viewers of WOLC on the bay are here...

Ed K

 

[Roger Long]

Just a suggestion.

And a good one. I've thought about it. My back thing is a complicating factor as is the particular geometry of my drip pan which makes oil recovery rather difficult as well as stressful to my back.

There are a lot of long legs between here in Maine that the only responsible way for an elderly singlehander to do with a questionable back is to blast along under power with a good weather report. I've given up on the idea that anyone will ever come sailing with me on this boat for more than a day.

I'm not sure it would be a lot cheaper in Maine. If I were sure I could do it myself, which I won't know until after medical consultation, I would have thought about it more seriously.

It's also looking (just since yesterday) that a good place for the gambling folks among my readers to place their chips is on the engine being back in the boat in a week or two and my trip continuing along with my exploration of Chesapeake Bay. I learned a lot about the oil system on this engine in the last 24 hours.

A major decision factor is that my boys (college age) want to sail this summer and I'd already decided to stay around Portland for the season. Life is short. If I spend 4 grand on fixing the engine and get back to Maine with a functioning sailboat it will be worth it even if we are only able to make 3-4 outings. It will probably be the last summer home for one of them and these times never come again.

 

[Jimm]

........... these times never come again.

Amen to that! and we'll hope you get to spend time on the Bay afterall

 

[Bill Roosa]

hey Roger
Well we got the "panic first" part of the program out of the way and can now proceed to fixing this sucker.
I have to admit I was a bit confused at the reporting and my past experiences with rear main seals. They just don't "gush" like that, they dribble.
All good news and amen to the spending time with the progeny, you don't get it back.

 

[Roger Long]

I have to admit I was a bit confused at the reporting...

It's a good lesson in data collection. Most of my confusion, which I passed on to you all, was reading half on the dipstick right after I heard the alarm and found oil in the pan. Dip stick readings on this boat, especially with new oil, are difficult and I usually do them two or three times. The difference between half and dry an hour later put up the red herring of a rapid and gravity driven leak. The significance of that data point didn't become obvious until later.

It's now clear that the oil level was below the end of the dipstick when I first looked at it. The back thing was a complicating factor because I couldn't bend over to do any real further diagnosis until yesterday. Lack of sleep and nagging pain didn't do a lot for my analytical skills either.

A calm and careful dipstick reading at the time would have saved hundreds of words and days of anxiety.

Next time one of the most vital and important things in my life bleeds out before my eyes, I won't panic and will focus on careful and dispassionate collection of all possible data.

Right.

 

[kloudie1]

Good news in that the engine seems to be fine.. bad news is that the seal will have to be replaced to stop the leak.. Easy to catch oil and pour back in if there is another crew member, not so easy alone in a narrow channel .. Those little spiral grooves on the sealing lip of that seal are critical and you've probably worn the tip of the lip smooth.. Looks like not too bad of a job once the engine is forward enough to get the transmission and bellhousing off and can get at the rear main carrier.. Thankfully, you've found a mechanic who seems trustworthy.. Again, best to ya,Roger.. I second the book idea.. I am sure you have a lot of observations and stories that have come from your association with the business.. kinda like the Ron White book.. I really enjoyed that one..

 

[Ron20324]

A calm and careful dipstick reading at the time would have saved hundreds of words and days of anxiety.

And as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us".

 

[sailormanbigd]

another angle

since your trouble occurred after an oil change.....and its hard to read the stick.....is it say remoteley possible that somehow, someway, that you did'nt get all the new oil in the engine, that a quart or more ended up in the oil drainpan while you were filling it? Not impossible and if you were in a hurry, back hurting, etc ?