Correct crusier for atlantic crossing +live on for 2 ????

Bad Obsession · Mar 5, 2008

It all depends

A lot of what you are talking about all depends on budget. How much do you want to spend on this boat? What can you live with? What can you live without?First off, I suggest taking a sailing course (there are several around the country). Then I would suggest getting a starter boat to sail for a while to get use to sailing and cruise it costal and maybe some short off shore passages when you get more experienced. Maybe even crew an offshore passage with an experienced person.When you learn more about sailing and making the passages, you will learn more about what you want and need. Doing a Trans-Atlantic passage is a big deal. Doing the Passage from Hampton to Bermuda is a pretty big trip. If it is something you want to do you will need a while to prepair for it. You could get a Hunter, Catalina, or similar boat and take the intercoastal waterway to Flordia, hop over to the Bahamas for the winter, and learn a lot that way. Then after you get comfortable sell that boat and upgrade to a blue water boat.There are several good manufacturers of boats that are capible for doing bluewater. Some of them would be Pearson, Island Packet, Swan, Choy Lee, and the list goes on and on. A Ketch is a popular rig for doing this. My personal favorite is Island Packet (they are of excellent quality and built well).Then again you can throw out a lot of what people say and look at what has been done. There is a 1960's Triton 28 at my Marina that did a Trans-Atlantic (pretty impressive considering it is smaller than most 25 foot boats inside). People have done a Trans-Atlantic in smaller boats. Plotting courses, fuel management, and weather corrections are only a small part of the idea. You have to know how to sail the boat in heavy weather and you have to know what to do if you can't outrun a gale that is coming at you at break-neck speed. Research this and get information from people who have made this type of passage.

higgs · Mar 5, 2008

Good advice

...though, I disagree with Bad O's choice of Pearsons as offshore boats - unless he is limiting his choice to the Alden designed 60s early 70s boats. Most of the Shaw designs are gpood, solid coastal cruisers, in my opinion. While one hates to be patient sometimes, but you don't want to get stuck with a boat that, after a year, you find was not a good choice for you. I agree with Bad O's idea of getting started with a boat like a Catalina. Hunters are OK, but I have found some models are built for comfort at anchor rather than sailing performance.An additional suggestion is to read, read , read. there are a lot of books written by live aboard cruisers that will answer many of your questions better than this board can. Many yacht clubs offer very reasonably priced sailing classes and in many areas, spring is the time to get on board. Where are you located?

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 5, 2008

Take a vacation

This is not a good place to ask this question. If I were you, I would take a vacation to Bermuda, Hawaii or the Virgin Islands and talk to everyone at the marinas. Most had to make the trip to get there. They will tell you what is good and bad about their boat and what went right and what went wrong with their trip.You usually can get a fairly good buy at these places from people that made it there and dont ever want to go sailing again. They want to sell the boat and fly home. Cruising has broken up many marriages. IMHOTony B

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 5, 2008

Tough choices

As an airline pilot, you should have no problem learning to trim sails. A sail is a vertical wing. And as you say "....I know some about plotting courses, corrections and weather and fuel management so I think this is not an unrealistic dream for us." Which means that you already know more than most on this site.AS for the perfect size...well this is directly proportionat to you 'comfort level'. Being reasonable, probably no more than 45-47 foot although smaller will still work. How much money do you have?In open ocean, the larger boat is generally easier to handle since it reacts more slowly than a smaller boat.What manufacturer? Thats a Chevy vs. Ford battle that will never end. There is one particular brand that has a lot of status that I would never own. Beware of these barges calling themselves sailboats. Keep in mind that while cruising, that the lack of wind is much more prevalent than too much wind.AS for the rigging, I would only recommend a ketch. Much easier to handle and balance under all weather conditions.Electronics: GET THE LATEST. Open ocean...no radar, no problem. Tight areas like shipping lanes, inlets, anchorages, oil fields and marinas, Radar is very important.Optimun fuel and water capacity: there is no optimum, only minimums. Probably 150 to 200 gals of fuel and 200 gals water.Watermakers, although high maintenance items could save your life. Also note that in foreign countries, water can be expensive 10-12 cents per gallon out of the faucet, not to metion the questionable quality.When it comes to electrical systems - American vs. European. Where will the boat spend most of its life? Tony B

Ross · Mar 5, 2008

Most of the answers you have received so far

reflect educated opinions and they are good answers. The next level is the books. I recommend "Cruising Sailboat Kenetics" by Danny Greene and "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor" by C.J. Marchaj. There are many more titles that are worth while.The question you pose is much like asking about which airplane is best. There are so many models and their charactaristic are so diverse that the answers depend in large part on your needs. You ask about fuel and water storage. More sail boats are forced to make port for lack of water than for lack of fuel. As far as size is concerned not all 30 foot boats have the same hull shape. Some are sleek and some are full and deep. Sleek is faster but full will carry more. For food requirments you need to plan on at least 1 pound per person per day and plan twice as much as you would need if the passage went well. Recently a woman completed a solo circumnavigation with three stops in a 28 foot Southern Cross. During her passage from New Zealand to Cape Horn another sailor in a 45 foot steel boat was wreaked in a storm and had to abandon his attempt. She survived the same storm albeit in a somewhat different location.Edit to add: what part of this country are you located in?

Scott · Mar 5, 2008

Your questions are good ...

But too many for one post. I disagree with Tony B ... this is a great place to ask the questions. You just have to sort out the best answers for you and be a little aware that some may be wrong or misleading. It would probably be good to start shopping and then apply the questions to some specific features of the boats you are looking at. Are you ready to retire right now and begin cruising? Or do you plan to start sailing, learn more about it, and then embark on a dream?It sounds like you probably have some money to spend on what you want and financing may not be too much of a limiting issue. So the question of whether to get a new boat or a fixer-upper is significant because there are advantages both ways. My suggestion would be to shop patiently and find a good solid older boat to fix up for experience. The reason I say this is because I think that if you are completely new to sailing or sailing with a cruising vessel (as I was a few years ago), it's not reasonable to expect to understand what is the best choice of a boat until you gain some valuable hands-on experience.If you find a boat that is solid but needs upgrades in instrumentation, sailing hardware, electrical and plumbing systems, and has a diesel auxiliary to learn how to work on, you will learn far more than you could if you buy a new boat that has everything already, but you learn nothing about how to make things work. I think it is a good idea to get a smaller cruiser, say 28' to 33' for experience first and foremost. Then it would be great to apply your knowledge and experience when searching for the boat you want to set sail with. How much better would it be to be able to commission a new boat and have it built to your exacting specifications after you know exactly the way you want to have it built? Or by then, you may find that by shopping carefully, you can find a new boat or a newer used boat that has already been built with almost all of the specifications that you require. By then, you will know if it is a Sabre or a Tartan or C&C or Malo or Najad or Hallberg Rassy or Oyster or Hinkley or Island Packet or Beneteau, or Catalina or Hunter or Bavaria or you get the idea. Nobody can tell you which you should like at that point.It may take more time that way, but it should also be fun and useful. Also, you may not get much of a return by spending money on a fixer-upper and the experience you gain may be costly if you find it difficult to sell your fixer-upper when you are ready to move-on; but maybe you have older kids who would like to have the boat when you no longer want it. Everybody has personal circumstances that weigh on the best course of action and the advise you get here can't possibly take everything into account. But you won't learn much if you sit on the sidelines, so don't be afraid to get started with something!

David11054 · Mar 5, 2008

Complete Guide to Choosing a Cruising Sailboat

by Roger Marshall is the best book I have read on the subject. He stays away from brands, but explains the issues, and provides a large table of many current designs to compare.See the link below.See Henk Meuzelaar's article in the archives for sensible modifications to his 40+ foot Hunter for cruising in the Pacific. Most production boats will need such modifications.Good Old Boat magazine just had a three issue article by folks who had cruising around the world for 10+ years, and had the most sensible commentary I have read.Longer and heavier will increase comfort and carrying capacity. But there are lots of examples of people using boats of 30 feet or less.Some designs are clearly not meant for long distance, blue water cruising. A good starting point is to look for designs with capsize screens under 2.00. Regardless of long threads on this topic, a designer who draws a boat with a capsize screen over 2.00 is pretty much saying, "I wasn't thinking of blue water cruising for this model."How serious are you about blue water cruising? (versus the coastal cruising that most of us do, and the Admiral and I love on the Great Lakes.) There is a good argument for buying a boat you like and sailing it nearby for a few years, then either buying the right boat for a blue water trip, or upgrading the one you have at that point. Used sailboats maintain their value pretty well if maintained, so you will not lose much money in the exchange. And I guarantee you that you will learn more sailing a good boat than reading our opinions or favorite books for years. In fact, the studying will make a lot more sense as you gain some experience. At the same time, you (and anyone you are thinking of sailing with) will learn a lot about what you really want to do.For instance, the Admiral and I have discovered that chartering a week a year has allowed us to sail wonderful cruising grounds around the world without months away from our family, friends, and work to get there and back. I'm not pushing this idea, just saying it's all about what you and yours want, and what you actually enjoy.You are starting a the fun of planning and designing - one of the great activities that makes us enjoy sailing!DavidLady Lillie

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 5, 2008

The reason I said....

The reason I said that this was not a good place to ask is pretty obvious. There have been 4 different people replying and neither of us have ocean crossing experience unless it was left off of their bio.Whenever i was looking for another boat, I asked people that did the kind of sailing that I wanted to do and took their recommendations. When I bought my Catalina 30 it was with the intention of coastal cruising. I felt it was a great decision. People with 'blue water boats steered me away from their models for coastal cruising. When I bought my current boat, I asked people that did lots of offshore sailing. I feel that he needs to ask the people that actually do the kind of sailing he wants to do. For a newbe, its awful difficult to sort through here and figure out which is good and which is bad info.Also, I never was much for starting small and upgrading over time unless I was financially limited, which was almost always the case. I feel that if you have the money, buy the boat you intend to use and use it to get experience. The only negative side I see to a larger boat is getting in and out of a slip. All else is a plus. IMHOTony B

EvenKeel · Mar 6, 2008

I have to agree with Tony...

garylex asks a long list of loaded questions, albeit all good ones. Nothing will substitute for gaining knowledge and experience. Read, read, and read some more. Learn to sail, sail with some people who are good at it, charter a number of times so that you can determine whether you and your wife (1) enjoy cruising and (2) can stand each other in close quarters 24/7. If you want to get a wild thread going, just ask "How many of you started sailing and quickly found out that your spouse hates it?" My own spouse likes to sail for short periods in fair weather, but when it comes to my long-dreamed-about cruise south, I'll be doing it mostly alone.Then, as you have gained some invaluable knowledge and experience, use this terrific forum for asking questions about things for which you are having trouble finding the answers or need some opinions. You will be in a much better position to sift through the answers. You may find that you want to take the Atlantic crossing out of the equation and enjoy the somewhat more predictable splendors of coastal cruising which could keep you busy for a lifetime.As a pilot myself, I can tell you that you will put some of your skills to good use on a cruising boat. Like flying, where much airmanship occurs within a mile of the airport, much of your seamanship occurs within 50 feet of a dock. But there are also some major differences. Sailing is much less reliant on Standard Operating Procedures and is much more physical. Where SOP's do exist fewer boaters than pilots know them!Finally, I'm not sure that any of the boats that garylex listed are particularly good choices for blue water. I see no significant difference in suitability between Beneteaus, Catalinas, Hunters, and Bavarias here. I've sailed multiple models of all of these and own a Catalina that I love for coastal cruising, but I wouldn't take any of them transatlantic. Having said that, people have circumnavigated in them with success.However you do it, I hope you get to follow your dream.

Ross · Mar 6, 2008

We are developing a common theme here

it is that reading everything applicable is the first order of importance. A man can't live long enough to learn all that he needs to know by experience.

sailaway78 · Mar 6, 2008

Lots of good advice here

As Tony mentioned, there are lots of boats sitting in the Islands, and various other places around the world, because the owners found out it wasn't all what they had seen in the magazines and dreamed about. They couldn't deal with harsh weather, being alone for weeks at a time, or a multitude of other problems. So now the boats sit, the owners burned out, never to return. Start slow and learn. Find out what it is like to get into severe weather on a small boat. Learn to live in small spaces with room for only the bare necessities. I lived on a 28 full time for over a year, and it takes some major adjustments. Most on this board who are giving advice have not crossed oceans, and never will. Including yours truly. I do not want to imply that you give up your dreams, but just stick your toe in the water and check the temp. before you jump in head first.

MoonSailer · Mar 6, 2008

Second Roger Marshall's Book

The book defines several types of boats and their suitability for a particular purpose. John Vigor has a couple of books on offshore boats. But you really might want to consider getting a Catalina 22 just to learn about sailing. You can pick up a C-22 for just a few thousand dollars. Learn to sail it and hang around the marina talking to other sailers and cheak out heir boats. You really don't want to invest a couple hundred thousand in an Island Packet 40 and then decide that a Hood 38 is what you really want. After a year knocking around in the Catalina 22 and talking to other sailers you will know a lot more about what you want to buy. Right now it is a buyers market. This is very good for buying but if you buy the wrong boat you may be stuck with it for a long time. With the Catalina 22 we are talking such a small amount of money that giving it away wouldn't break the bank. Also learning to dock etc in a 22' boat is a lot less expensive than hitting the Dock with your new world cruiser. A mistake that can be corrected easily in a 22[ boat could easily cost thousands in a Wauquiez 40. Also after sitting for hours in the sun waiting for wind you might decided that a nice trawler is the way to go. I love sailing but I have had friends that thought sailing was as boring as watching paint dry.

Stu Jackson · Mar 6, 2008

Another way to say all this is

what most good sailors pass on to others: learn to sail on a small boat, that's pretty much the only way to actually learn -- wind, parts of the boat, small size doesn't hurt when you goof, etc. Work your way up, charter some (which is a very good way to see if you'll like the "lifestyle") and go on from there. As you know as a systems oriented person from your work, there are a multitude of issues to deal with if you're gonna run a floating home, which is a bunch of stuff in addition to sailing. Good luck.

steve rainey · Mar 6, 2008

what to do

In your case I would sign up for a weeks training cruise with your wife. Search on blue water crusiing, training and such. Call around get a good price, check the archieve on this site, lots of good info. Determine if you two like it, then find the boat you want. As for me, I'd buy the one you want to keep so you don't have to sell one to get a bigger one. Might as well put your money into the one you want. for a couple a 38 to 41 footer is just right I think. As far as getting quality type questions answers, theres a site called yatchsurvey great site, reviews of all types of boats, pro and cons...One thing I'd stay away from cored hull types, some of the newer ones. Do lots of reading on the archives here on this site, lots of info..

higgs · Mar 6, 2008

As you have undoubtedly seen...

...there are no simple answers to your post. Keep us posted on what you do. We won't hesitate to throw in our 2 cents and it will give us something to debate and you might even get something out of it. Good luck.

Captain E · Mar 6, 2008

give yourself time

Know the basics. First try out something smaller and work from there. Purchase a pacific seacraft Flicka 20(most are already well equipt), its trailable so you can trailer it to different bodies of water. You will learn alot what a blue water boat requires. Sail it for a few years, till you get comfortable sailing in high winds and storms. It is a true blue water boat that is hot in the market, selling it when you are ready to go "big" would be easy. Like flying, it is good to get miles on your sea legs before actually going about. You might like the flicka so much that you might use it to do the crossing. With the savings buying a small boat, you could afford to stay in hotels or rent an apartment when the boat is moored. I don't think you could get blue water experiance from a catalina 22.If you ever decide ocean crossing is not your thing, you have an awsome Flicka that is an envy in Marina's. You will get alot of people taking pictures of your boat.

higgs · Mar 6, 2008

Flicka 20

What a great boat - no question about it. The drawback to the Flicka is that it appeals to a very small segment and selling it will take time.

MoonSailer · Mar 6, 2008

Flickas are SLOW and EXPENSIVE

Catalina 22s are cheap You can buy one for what a couple of weeks of chartering would cost. Catalina 22s are cheap so you can't lose much money when you sell the thing to buy """the boat""". Dreams are best when properly matched to reality. Go to almost any marina and you will see neglected rarely used boats that were once someone's dream. A $5000 Catalina 22 can not become a nightmare. But getting 100K or more tied up in a boat that you can't sell and don't want can become a real nightmare. With a catalina 22 you can put it on a trailer and park it in the back yard for free. But with a 40 something boat you have to pay hundreds in slip fees every month even if you never go sailing. Not to mention registration insurance taxes etc. You will meet a lot of people who will want to sell you their boat. My suggestion is to take it slow and know what you want before you spend a lot of money. It is very much like buying an airplane. A citabria is a great little plane for a grass field. A piper cub is a great little plane for a student. But you don't want to buy a big twin or a Lear jet to fly out of your pasture just like you don't want to fly the cub from NY NY to La CA. Just like an airplane it is a lot easier to buy a plane when you have the money than it is to sell a plane when you want money.

LANCE ON CLOUD NINE · Mar 6, 2008

Welcome to the dream Mr. and Mrs. GaryLex!

Why don't you tell us the general area you live or want to sail? Tell us what great picnics you make. I bet someone here will invite you sailing. Go to a Strictly Sail boat show. Stand and sit in all the boats. Run your hands over every piece of hardware. Pull up the cushions and look in all the nooks and crannies. Offer to split the charter with someone more experienced and learn to sail really well on a boat you can walk away from with very little out of pocket expense. If you and your wife want a FANTASTIC 3 day sailing course, try Michigan City Sail Boat Charters- get in Captain Jeff Logan's class.(219)-879-7608. If you buy a boat, keep us posted and use the chandlery from this site. Have a blast! Lance

Correct crusier for atlantic crossing +live on for 2 ????

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steve rainey

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