Correct crusier for atlantic crossing +live on for 2 ????

Ross · Mar 6, 2008

With Flicka no matter how badly she gets knocked down she will come back up .

That is the most important feature in a blue water cruiser. To have a boat that is bi-stable is no comfort. I can not say at what point a cat 22 will turn turtle but I am certain that it is before flicka. Some boats will turn upright when they are mast down and keel up and some will stay just like that.

Stillraining · Mar 6, 2008

Im on my third sailboat

and not my finial one for bluewater...but at 41' and 13'8" beam with Sheol draft it is big enough for the 5 of us and just right for our PNW cruising grounds...Is it an off shore boat...No..so when that day arrives if it ever does we will get the proper boat for that...sturdier built and probably less roomie but it's a trade off unless you are flush with cash... Get a boat that will serve your needs for the duration of your learning period say 3 years then get the boat you really need to do your ocean odysseys with..but dont get a boat that you will outgrow in the first season or two ( Catalina 22)...you can take sailing lessons on thoes...Get a real coastal boat to see if this is really something you want to do..It dosent have to be the perfect world cruiser just solid and safe...at least 27' Good luck..

Doug Burton · Mar 6, 2008

I know nothing!

OK, here's MY story. We bought a 25 year old Ericson 30+ and began bay sailing and loved it. The boat was very forgiving, very solid, pretty fast, and we learned alot. Took some courses with chartering in FL. and became "reasonably" competent. After 3 years, moved up to a 38 which we plan on the first year of retirement cruising the Caribbean. Hopefully that will go well because the plan after that would be Ireland and Scotland but with something bigger that would accomadate a washer/dryer and other big accesories, maybe an Amel or something similar but not until we're really sure we want to drop that kind of dough. Point being, to be safe and comfortable it takes more than a good boat. You can kill yourselves or somebody else, blow your retirement, and be miserable on the Queen Mary. Since you understand weather you're way ahead of the learning curve but comfy is truly an abstract to whatever your expectations might be. Really, get a good used boat with "disposable income" for your immediate needs, something you can take a small loss on, learn, then move on. Who knows, you may hate the slow pace or think it's wasting time, or whatever. But buying a 50 something big money world cruiser to find out it isn't you, could really cost you BIG. The whole thing is about not being in a hurry, right!

newly anonymous · Mar 6, 2008

answers

1. That fellow who told you that he and his wife stood 12-hour watches? Discount anything else he told you, because that's just plain goofy.2. The fellow that told you that expensive boats were okay for passages, but not inexpensive boats? Discount everything he told you as well, because he's not really a sailor, he's just a boat snob. 3. Autopilot? Absolutely. If you're on a budget, skimp on the radar and forget about the watermaker, but get the best autopilot you can afford, because it's your new best friend.4. Hours on engine? Irrelevant. 99 out of 100 times the diesel with 500 hrs that's sat there unused for the past five years will be in worse shape than the one with 1000 hrs that gets a hour of use every weekend.5. Optimal fuel and water tankage? Now you're talking! Forget about the boat's snob appeal, and begin your search by concentrating on tankage. Seriously. I carry 100 gal fuel and 200 gal water, and there are people on this board with boats that carry 25 fuel and 50 water who claim that their boats are superior passagemakers because their boats have a pricier brand name than my American-built production boat. Horsefeathers! The more the boat can take, the more the boat can take.

Maine Sail · Mar 6, 2008

Lots of stuff to consider..!!

John,With all due respect "skimp on radar"? Wow, and you expect your advice to be taken over someone else's. He did say Atlantic crossing in the subject line!!

Garylex,Quality of construction matters more than any brand name regardless of price. For an Atlantic crossing you could encounter force 6 to 10 for more than a day or two. You'll want a boat that can withstand the forces of 25 to 60 knots of wind, seas of 10 to 30 feet and one that will hold up to this for more than a few days at a time without jerking and tearing at it's self to begin coming apart.. Proper rudder construction - stock diameter, internal supporting of the rudder. Bearings? Skeg? Partial skeg?Proper bulkhead construction- Is it "tabbed" to the hull and deck or free floating?? Internal Furniture - How is it held to the boat? A few screws or is it tabbed?Deck - Does it allow easy navigation of its self in rough weather? Is there room for a life raft?Galley - Can you work in it in a sea or is it too big to brace yourself effectively?? Proper hull construction - Is there sufficient strength in the hull and design to minimize hull flexing and twist? Chain Plates - Are they robust enough? How are they attached? Are they attached to "floating" bulkheads or to tabbed bulkheads? Are they glassed directly to the hull? Hull construction - Does it flex, creak and shudder in 30 knots and 4-5 foot seas beating to weather. If it does move on..Internal hand holds - Were are they placed? Sea berth - Have a good one for an Atlantic crossing.Sail plan & Rig - Rig, you'll want keel stepped! A cutter rig is a nice option. Sail handling, head sail furling unit robustly and properly sized? Main sail reefing, is it of a safe and efficient design for one person to handle?Tankage - As much as you can. How are the tanks secured? What would happen to them if you were to be knocked down? Where would they go? Can the supports holding them into the boat support 100 gallons of water crashing off a 25 foot wave while the boat is on it's side?Cabin sole - What would happen to the filler boards if you were knocked down where would they go? How heavy are they and how many stitches would they cause you to need if they went flying in a knock down..Furniture latches - Can they hold back the contents of the cabinet? They CAN NOT be pressure sensitive type for an ocean crossing!Batteries - Sufficient size? Sufficient tie downs? Sufficient fusing within 7" of the battery post?Sail handling - Is it set up for single handing while your wife is asleep? Is it designed for minimal on deck time?Anchor handling - is there enough room for lots of chain, spare rodes & anchors?Cockpit - Is it too big to drain quickly if you get pooped? A walk through transom will drain quickly but also fill quickly in a big following sea.Ballast ratio - How fast will your boat stand up from a knock down?Water removal - Bilge pump systems? How many? Manuals and electronic? Scuppers how big? How many gallons per minute can they drain and how many gallons will the cockpit hold?Seacocks - Are they of a robust design and properly installed?Keel bolts - How is the keel to hull joint? Is there any sign of corrosion of the keel bolts what was used for backing plates?Companion way hatch - How big is it?? You want small!These are just SOME of the questions you'll want to spend some time finding answers for that you can feel comfortable with facing an Atlantic crossing. It is not as easy as what brand do I buy!P.S. Beneteteau is in the same class with Catalina, Hunter, Jenneau & Bavaria unless it's one of the earlier German Frers First series...Can you cross in a Catalina, Jenneau, Beneteau, Hunter or Bavaria? Sure, and people have done it, but it's not as good an idea as crossing in a boat designed and built to withstand blue water conditions. The above mentioned boats are perhaps the best possible boats for coastal cruising but not world voyaging..Beyond that the best advice I can give is to TRY it before you fully commit! By that I mean buy an inexpensive coastal cruiser and do the ICW from say Maryland to the Carib. By the end of that voyage you'll know if you're ready to continue on and to invest in a proper and properly outfitted boat to handle an Atlantic crossing.I see too many folks spend HUGE money on a dream boat to get two months into it only to turn around and sell the boat at a HUGE loss because it was not what they anticipated...

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 6, 2008

Just another thought

I dont know how much sailing you and your wife have done so far, so I will assume not much if any at all. Most sailors on here agree that the thing to do is to start off small and slowly upgrade. I have always disagreed with this concept. If a CEO of any major corp. had to learn every job description in his company, he would have to be 500 years old. More applicable to sailing, you will die of old age before you had the complete knowledge and skill to be fully competant. Reading (education) and doing it (experience) crossover in rank of importance as time goes on. Reading is very important in the beginning - the very beginning. The experience will be much more important. After your first week of intensive reading - about 5 or 6 books on how to sail, they will all say the same thing. Get on the water and you will see things are not always as described/perceived. Sailing is not rocket science. Chances are that humans sailed before they had written languages. If no one ever told you what to do, you would figure it out in a very short time all by yourself. Anyway, getting back to the original point of starting off with your final boat.Women are usually less likely to be happy sailors and generally more prone to seasickness. With this in mind, go without wife on a 25 foot sailboat with friends or whatever on a light chop day of 2 to 3 ft. Then again without wife do the same thing on a 35 ft boat and please write back and tell us what you 'think' might be your wifes reaction. Tony B

Tom S · Mar 6, 2008

garylex, you don't say where you sail from

There has been a lot of good responses here. (Once again excellent points from Maine Sail) Its been mentioned before I think that getting a good boat that you can buy today and get some sailing under your belt is the best way to go. Get a boat at a reasonable price that can resell easily and won't depreciate much. You will learn a lot from this boat and then be better prepared for what you really want and or need in a boat. Too many times I have seen people in your situation fail in their dream - first time to sailing and wanting to "sail of into the sunset' and cruise the world (or at least some tropical islands

) They get that big boat which they "think" is what they want or need and realize its not. Many times the boat is too big to handle with just a couple. Don't think big is necessarily better. It is to a point and then its not.You have to really think about how you are going to use the boat. 90% of the cruising boats spend 90% of the time at anchor somewhere (Sure, I made up those stats, but you get the idea. I bet its not far off) You also have to decide what you want in a boat as far as sailing - Slow or fast. Many people that have a slow heavy boat are very frustrated and end up motoring more than people with a nice sailing or faster boat.(Also remember waterline length = speed) But when the &$%#@^ hits the fan there is nothing more comforting than being is a slow brick sh*t house of a boat.As mentioned before most boats made today can easily handle an ocean crossing or two. With weather info at your fingertips you can more easily avoid nasty day after day bad weather. If you study the cruising books you can stay out of certain areas and certain times of the year which are known to . If you do it right you can mostly cherry pick your cruising window and bad areas. In a book I read (something like "cowards guide to cruising" ?) The author who sailed all over the world claimed never seeing winds above 20-25 kts other than passing storms that never lasted more than a short time. In fact one cruiser mentioned that the amount of time in low winds (under 8-10 kts) was most all the time, with the occasional chaotic storm that passed through. If you are really going to go out cruising and sailing invest in some light air sails (Code 0, Cruising spinnaker, etc). Remember unless you are rounding Cape Horn or plan on sailing in higher latitude heavy ocean sailing for months at a time, you probably don't need a "tank" of a boat.Which leads me to another topic I have heard from full time cruisers. Yes we are sailors, but you'd be surprised at how much motoring cruiser do. A few years back Cruising World had a couple that did what you are doing and wrote a series of articles. I attended their seminar at a boat show once and the one thing they would have changed on their boat was to have a bigger engine. There were times when they needed the extra "umph" and also with things like high output alternators, etc it would have been welcome. I have to shake my head when I read what you wrote about different boat brands and suitability. Without being too harsh, whatever you read was obviously very biased (and dare I say in some instances totally wrong). To put Bavaria above a Catalina makes me snicker, especially when I never really heard the keel of Catalina coming off, but it has happened on some of the "match" series of boats made by Bavaria. I think someone even died because of it (just Google "bavaria sailboat lost keel"). I also agree with Maine Sail, only one or two types of older Beneteaus I would consider a cut above any of the boats you listed. Really the only one that stands in my mind is the Beneteau 40.7 (which I believe did very well in a Sidney Hobart race once) In my personal opinion (which is just that - an opinion) the quality of the newer Beneteaus are going down. Yes they look good and you get a heck of a lot of boat (length that is) for the $$, but if you look closer it looks like they are putting more effort into how the boat looks new and not into how they'll be in 10-15 years. Hey, it seems to work because they are selling well.The last one I want to comment on is the J-Boats. I don't see how anyone could put a bigger (cruising) J-Boat below any of those boats you listed. (Unless the reference you read was related to an old around the can racing design like a J-24 or something). I dare say many of their bigger cruising J-boats would be at the top of a list along side the Tartans, Sabres, etc. My problem with them is many have ~very~ deep keels and would prohibit me from sailing and gunkholing in the areas I like to frequent.BTW. When I think of "proper" sailboat for cruising, two that pop into my mind that weren't mentioned were Pacific Seacraft and a Valiant (or many Bob Perry designs) . Not that they would be my ultimate choice, but are known to be good solid cruising boats/designs.My last bit of advise - Go to one of the bigger Sailboat shows - (google "strictly sail") You'd be amazed at how much you'd pick up in a long weekend attending the various cruising seminars. You'll get all sorts of advice and much of it varying from each other. Also they are a LOT of fun too

MoonSailer · Mar 6, 2008

sailor tonyB a good point

We took my daughter's friends sailing a young husband and wife. I tried to talk the wife into taking something for sea sickness. But she refused. She had been on lake boats all of her life and would not get seasick. Well she did a reality check that day. We were sailing from Panama City to Port Saint Joe to spend the night. She started puking before we were out of sight of the jetties. Puked all day and then all day back. After you buy a nice world cruiser would be a bad time to find out that you puke your guts out while at sea!!!! I have gotten physically sick from the heat in July when the wind stopped blowing. Having a storm come through at 3 in the morning is just plain scarey!!!! Finding out that sailing along with schools of sharks and rays swiming around your boat is cool for me and my wife. NOW but when we were first married my wife saw a small nurse shark and would not get back into the water!!!!! This was a problem as we were not on our boat. Finally after a lot of talking she was convinced that a 3' nurse shark was not a threat. But I have had to go overboard to get a lobster pot float off of my prop a few times while well away from shore. I am sure that the thought of going overboard to cut off a lobster pot line in 4' waves is not part of everyone's "dream" But it happens all of the time in the keys during lobster season. I have only cut one line. It was wrapped around the prop and after about 15 minuted of trying to get it off I was just too tired to continue and with great reluctance cut the line. Usually Just a kick would get the float unstuck. Sailing in the ocean is an experience....that is not suited to everyone.

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 7, 2008

Tom

I dont think that garylex actually exists. He "is very new to sailing" and yet he joined this site almost 3 years ago? Also, it has that 'contrived' feeling like so many in the past.It is still an interesting thread that leads to many good points by all. Sometimes I wonder if "ask all sailors" does this just to keep everyone interested. No matter either way, it stimilates thoughts.You also brought up some points such as slow heavy boats and engine HP which on their own could be individual threads.This will lead me to start another thread about types of rigs.Tony B

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 7, 2008

Gary

Click on your name and you will see it is indicating you joined in July 2005. Could be a site mistake, but the coincidence that you should make an immediate reply when challenged, and yet not comment or respond to questions that others have asked of you.Could be coincidence, but for now, i will go back to sniffing fumes.Tony B

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Mar 7, 2008

Response time

Many of the posts all asked questions which you as of yet have not answered.Reply #1 asks "How much do you want to spend?"Reply #2 asks "where are you located?"Reply #4 asks "How much money and where will the boat spend most of its time?"and so on.And when challenged you answered in 7 minutes.Probably just a coinky-dink. Not important. Good thread starter anyway.

Ross · Mar 7, 2008

With regard to speed and ocean crossing. Donna Lange

posted her ship's log for her circumnavigation. For her time at sea she averaged only about 4 knots. About one hundred miles a day. I think that that is as close to a good planning speed as we could find. There would be days much faster and certainly days when you were hove-to in a storm and days when the wind failed. But you can't carry enough fuel to motor all the way and you can't stop for a fill-up. I think that good planning and realistic expectations are most essential for peace of mind. I am always an optimist about how quickly I can make things happen but a crass pessimist about the reality. My boat sails very nicely at five knots so I can plan on 124 miles from noon to noon crossing the Atlantic. RIGHT? So I would pack food for twice that long. and maybe a little more.

Ross · Mar 7, 2008

Gary, when you are on this side of the pond

where is your lillypad? Hostile question: Europe is a pretty big place. We are in North America. Maybe you could narrow it down just a little?

LANCE ON CLOUD NINE · Mar 7, 2008

Gary, You are welcome- from myself and other posters.

You should know that the fellows replying to your questions really want to help you. I have learned so much from them. They(we) ask probing questions so that we may be of better, more efficient service. We want to make sure you exist so if we take the time to prepare a detailed opinion, it is not out there just blowing in the wind. You can learn a bunch by reading these guys past posts. I have poured over them. The ideal boat is always going to get lots of different answers but from a pilots perspective, wouldn't you agree that it might be a good idea to lap a Piper Cub around a cornfield a few times before buying a 747 and flying across the Atlantic? I am looking forward to knowing you better and hearing about your adventures! Lance

Ross · Mar 7, 2008

Blue crabs are scarce. We have a rather large Ukranian population

in Harford County. Kentucky is a long way from salt water.