Copper in Water
- Thread starter JamesG161
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- bottom paint copper
I couldn't resist....
My science professors would NOT let me debate Science.
But you can debate the conclusions of proposed models (by Man) to describe an unknown and sometimes undefinable result forecasted by those MODELS!
Jim...
There is a lot of truth in this. We want to do something. There is also a need to blame it on someone else (we've been just as guilty on this thread--proof of the tendency, as if if politics didn't too often provide clear proof).
A little math for thought.
My boat uses about 6 pounds of copper per year. The slip (including my share of under the dock and the fairway) contains about 85000 pounds of water. This would be about 70 ppm Cu with no flush or precipitation. If I painted a pool with anti-fouling, I would expect a dead pool. Of course, there is tide, in my case about 0.5 ft/s at peak flow, or about 500 flushes per day. Not all of this leaves the harbor and some places the tide is less, so let's say 100 flushes. We'll ignore stormy weather. That's 365,000 flushes per year. The increase in Cu will be a few tenths of ppb, or not too different from what some test results suggest. So the description of the problem seems plausible.
Of course, there will be precipitation, and some areas will flush less, some more.
What I would find interesting would be a test of actual paint performance. In a synthetic seawater tank with realistic amounts of colloidal solids, TOC, and agitation, how much dissolved copper is generated in a year? The paint guys might invent a novel way to reduce it, and we don't need to get to zero. Heck, the result might be 4-year paint! Paints already release far less than bare copper (I did some testing related to anodes, and determining control wastage was part of the project), so perhaps there is more room to improve.
Or debate semantics over substance...I couldn't resist....
My science professors would NOT let me debate Science.
But you can debate the conclusions of proposed models (by Man) to describe an unknown and sometimes undefinable result forecasted by those MODELS!
Jim...
I imagine much of this consternation took place decades ago when TBT was phased out.
Why not just ban all the elements on the periodic table that are part of our natural world that have proven toxicity? Copper, Cadmium, Zinc, Uranium, Berylium.....Meanwhile the EPA breaks a dam at a mine causing a massive environmental catastrophe and no accountability.
You may be surprised to know the dam break to which you refer wasn't the first; just the most recent and well publicized.
As to the elements, none were health threats until we took them out of the ground except maybe to a pica child.
Wow talk about....
Let me start the count...
1)Food...( N,P,K,O,H,C,Mg,Mn,I,Si.Br,Cr.....)
2)Blood ( Fe,Na,P,Cl,Se,Zn,Co and Item #1)
3)Especially high concentrations of Arsenic & Sulfur
(Apple seed)_____
I wonder if the scientific types, in this post, reviewed how Thermodynamics plays a role in Concentration and Toxicity?
Ponder this...
Equilibrium of Copper in ocean water
Entropy production by Copper = 0 , Toxicity is driven by Thermodynamic Chemical potential. No potential, no toxicity. Add more Copper to the ocean?______
What happens to Cu from our copper pipes in potable water systems?
_____
Jim...
Don S/V ILLusion said:
As to the elements, none were health threats until we took them out of the ground except maybe to a pica child.
Don lots of elements were taken out of the ground to build S/V Illusion, perhaps if you lived your life in the wilderness not using any man-made materials you could save the planet!
Reminds me of Al Gore flying on Air Force Two around the globe telling everyone to reduce their carbon footprint.
Sometimes I wonder if people read what they write. Elemental can't mounds naturally occurring in food is your argument???Wow talk about....
Let me start the count...
1)Food...( N,P,K,O,H,C,Mg,Mn,I,Si.Br,Cr.....)
2)Blood ( Fe,Na,P,Cl,Se,Zn,Co and Item #1)
3)Especially high concentrations of Arsenic & Sulfur
Jim...
Most of us drive to our boat thereby polluting the environment, leach copper from the bottom paint, empty our holding tanks outside perscribed limits, etc...
And genuflect at the thought some portion of that total loading is avoidable based on such ancillary considerations such as thermodynamics. Wow!
We can't even resolve to get the lead out of our drinking water, and 40 years later EPA still can't manage to evaluate the toxicity of +95% of the toxic substances in industrial use, so we have this status quo where individual states and municipalities take on the regulation of toxics with incomplete, underfunded science. The cost effective solution is to hire a lobbyist and send him down to Washington to make sure copper paint is not regulated nationwide.
Kemah Boardwalk Marina....severely restricted water with 400 boats crammed into a tight area but yet has tons of fish. The lack of fish in a marina is not due to bottom paint, but how much food is in the area and how much protection. Heck, even with copper paint, stuff still grows on it. That is not to say it isn't bad, but the majority of the copper stays on the boat.
My next bottom job is going to be the Copper Coat -- copper mixed with a special epoxy where no growth for 10 years. The copper stays on the boat and the growth stays off the boat.
Boy I am still laughing. You must have NOT done your review. Oh well...
_______
I posted to let people understand the "knee jerk" regulations based on this EPA protocol used to somehow MODEL and predict the effects on tender species confined in a tank for 4+ days and subtracted the normal dead fish in a control tank.
This is man's meager attempt at MODELing and ecosystem that varies with every body of water.
https://www.epa.gov/cwa-methods/whole-effluent-toxicity-methods
It is CONCENTRATION and EXPOSURE TIME! in basically a fish jail.
I have not used it personally but just witnessed a boat pulled out with it. A year in the water and absolutely nothing on it without any cleaning -- not even a power wash. The owners say they have a friend who has it on their boat going on 10 years and it has no growth with no cleaning done. I trust the people I talked to but do not know their friend.