Converting from ev100 wheel pilot to hydraulic?

[JavaMan]

Has anyone ever switched from the EV100 wheel pilot system to the EV100 hydraulic system, by simply installing the hydraulic pieces needed and reconfiguring the controller? Is it even possible? I attempted to register on Raymarine (to ask there) and it seems that page isn't working for some reason.

It would be really sad to have to purchase the entire system again when I already have most of it.

Thanks

 

[dlochner]

I sincerely doubt it. There would be a couple of issues, first below deck APs need a rudder sensor so the AP computer knows the rudder angle. Second, the amount of power required to run the hydraulic pump probably exceeds the about of power the wheel pilot controller can handle. Third, one of the advantages of a below deck AP is the response time which is much shorter than on a wheel pilot.

The issue with the power might be the biggest issue. APs work by simply reversing the polarity of the power to the drive unit. All the power must go through computer which does the switching. A below deck unit can easily draw 10 or more amps. The latest RM wheel pilot can only provide 7 amps maximum.

 

[kloudie1]

Dave makes a good point but the extra current needed for the drive unit could be easily provided by a pair of relays handling the higher power to the pump. The relays would be driven by the normal reversing signals from the existing autopilot. The computer usually has a rudder position sensor input but you'd have to buy that part.. Some hydraulic drive units have a position sensor built in .. The toughest part of that change to hydraulic would be getting a suitable mounting for the ram and mounting the ram drive arm onto the rudder stock. If you are a savvy mechanic/electronics guy, probably not too much of a hill; but certainly not trivial.

 

[BrianQ]

The ACU-100 will drive a wheel drive, tiller drive, or hydraulic pump.

Type 0.5 Hydraulic Pump | Boat Autopilots | Raymarine

 

[Foswick]

I concur with Dave and Claude. I would have been pretty confident that it would not be worth the effort, but I looked these two systems up. Granted, I spent all of 2 minutes looking, but it appears that both systems use the same display/interface unit and both use the ACU-100 Autopilot Control Unit.

So ... provided you address the power issue ... maybe?

 

[Calif. Ted]

I have not programmed one of the Evolution AP's but always in the past the controller had to be set for the drive type and could be used with all. Under the assumption you use a P70 or similar step 3.1 of the installation instructions is to set a drive type. From the manual is below:
With the [Drive Type] menu displayed:
1. Select your drive type.
The drive types available are:
• Type 1 / Type 2 Linear
• Type 2 / Type 3 Hydraulic Linear
• I/O Stern
• Wheel Drive
Tiller
• Sport Drive
• Verado
• Rotary Drive Type 1 / Type 2
• Hydraulic Pump Type 1 / Type 2 / Type 3
Drive type selection is also available when the autopilot is
in standby, from the [Drive Type] menu: [Menu > Set-up >
Autopilot Calibration > Vessel Settings > Drive type].
See: https://raymarine.app.box.com/s/rvhycb6x1brzo64921k5tsqwv2ica3j6/file/23464190539

 

[BigEasy]

The rudder sensor would not be a problem, it is readily available from Ray Marine as an accessory part. Ray Marine no longer includes the sensor in the auto pilot kits. It can be challenging mounting the sensor in a desirable location / configuration. I have given some thought to converting my wheel pilot to a linear drive, but not motivated to do it at present. As @kloudie1 mentioned, attaching the ram to the rudder stock or quadrant would be a problem. Likely would need a machine shop to fab a bracket.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm surprised you have a wheel pilot on a Hunter 460. Wouldn't this boat have the structure already built in for attaching a new drive unit? The original question seems to only be concerned about the controller. Ted appears to confirm that the controller can be configured.

 

[Tally Ho]

Would you consider a linear drive instead of the hydraulic unit? That would provide a below-deck solution that can handle a large boat, and not require all of the plumbing and issues of a hydraulic pump and hoses.

Greg

 

[colemj]

What am I missing here? The EV100 wheel pilot is the EV100 system operating a wheel drive unit. The EV100 hydraulic pilot is the same EV100 system, only driving a hydraulic pump. All of the components and connections are the same except for the type of drive unit used with it. Where is all the concern about power and the difficulty of converting? Both drive units use the same power supply, and both use the same wiring inputs.

But the bigger question is does the Hunter 460 have hydraulic steering? The EV100 hydraulic pump can't be used with mechanical steering systems unless you are cobbling together a hydraulic drive by coupling it with a ram cylinder.

If the boat does have hydraulic steering, then no problem. The EV100 is probably a bit small for the boat, but hydraulic steering uses so little power that I doubt this would matter.

If the boat has mechanical steering, then I suspect any drive unit you cobble together or purchase already manufactured will use too much power for the EV100 on your boat. The existing wheel pilot is quite a bit undersized for it.

Mark

 

[JavaMan]

Ok, I have NO idea where the info on the type of boat I have and where it's kept came from.... Changed it now and updated it. While I wouldn't mind a 460, I only have the Legend 37.

@Tally Ho - I would probably prefer something non-hydraulic (If that's what I linear drive is)... I've not looked into a linear drive, what it is, how it works. I'll have to check it out.

For everyone else that replied, I thank you for your input... it was enlightening, and very welcome. Part of the reason I'm considering this is the wheel drive just seems to not have enough oomph to stay on course in certain conditions, and secondly, the wheel drive simply came apart about a week ago. It has done it before, and I've repaired it once, but I think I'm going to pop for a "new" drive unit, or see if I can change it over to something with a bit more power to maintain course in those rough conditions.

I will try to remember to update here once I've done my investigations and upgraded to whatever I upgrade to.

 

[jssailem]

Well, that cleans things up.

Your boat has about the same displacement as my Cal 35. I have a wheel pilot on the boat. Cruising in winds of less than 20 knots, with the sails balanced and the boat heading into the wind, the wheel pilot does fine. The AMP draw is minimal, and when motoring, it is of no concern. The design and materials are weak. I mainly use it for motoring in calm and mild conditions, where there is minimal stress on the motor.

When the Wheel AP is making numerous corrections, the belt clutch will release. This is a design flaw. I use a rubber band to put tension on the clutch, keeping it in place. All will then be well whether sailing or motoring.

Let the wind and waves (greater than about 2 feet) swing to the stern, the stresses on my rudder become more than the motor can handle. It can fight against the water pressure, but not recover swiftly as the wave passes under the boat. This puts a strain on the Drive Ring, and it will fracture. Mine did after about 6 years.

The Linear drive is a different design. There is a rod that moves in and out of an electrical motor. It pushes or pulls a stub tiller that you put on the rudder shaft. The unit is more robust and can handle your boat in more strenuous conditions.

The CPT AutoPilot was mentioned.

CPT Autopilot Inc.

The CPT Autopilot is a reliable autopilot designed for sailboats and power boats with wheel steering.

www.cptautopilot.com

It is a wheel system that uses a more robust design than the Raymarine Wheel pilot. It's one flaw, in my mind, is the exposed belt and gears. I never liked working around exposed belts. Things can get grabbed and drawn into the gears. It has a lot more power to drive the wheel (86 ft-lbs).

Good luck with your steering. There is always the possibility to select a crew member to manage the helm...

 

[JavaMan]

@jssailem - To take your last comment first.... Well, at the moment I don't have any crew. Was supposed to but she jumped ship and is likely living somewhere in the Olympia/Seattle area - never to be seen again apparently. (yeah, I'm still a bit pissed about it)

So, until I find someone to help as crew the autopilot is the solution. And thanks for the description of the linear drive. I thought it would be something like that.... I did look at the CPT, but it didn't seem like it was much different than what I have now - it might be a bit more robust, but I'd rather spend $500-$600 on a new drive than $2000-$3000 on a new system. Of course, I have no idea how much a linear drive would cost yet. It's a bit farther down on the priority list at the moment.... (I'll likely do some research this weekend).

 

[jssailem]

Sorry to dredge up bad memories.

I solo sail a lot. The AP has proven its worth. No arguments for the most part. My rebuild was fairly easy. Found the drive wheel online best price at Fisheries Supply. They are a bit rare and Raymarine thinks they are made of gold. The motor was easy. Got help from a post by Greg, @Tally Ho. I talked to an engineer who was making parts for the Wheel Pilot. He said that the types of plastic used by Raymarine was contributing to the failures being experienced. He, unfortunately, has retired.

My boat, like yours, is on the upper end of the weight displacement curve for the Raymarine Wheel Pilot. I plan to get a few more years out of the wheel AP, then reconsider my options. One is to install a windvane AP to provide steerage. Not very good when motoring but great for long sails with the wind blowing.

 

[BigEasy]

And thanks for the description of the linear drive. I'd rather spend $500-$600 on a new drive than $2000-$3000 on a new system. Of course, I have no idea how much a linear drive would cost yet.

Unfortunately the Raymarine type I linear drive unit (suitable for 24,000 lbs) requires an ACU 200 black box vs ACU 100 for the wheel pilot. I haven't a clue as to what the differences are. If I were purchasing, I would try the linear drive with the ACU 100 box; if it didn't work, then purchase the ACU 200 box. The linear drive cost is $1850 + $850 for the ACU 200. Certainly, there will be additional costs for bracketing to the rudder stock or quadrant.

 

[dlochner]

A below deck AP is anything but economical.

A cost of $4-5K would not be surprising. Even more if you hire out the work. In addition to the drive unit you’ll need a rudder sensor and a bracket to attach it to the rudder shaft, along with so wiring up grades.

 

[Johann]

I haven't a clue as to what the differences are. If I were purchasing, I would try the linear drive with the ACU 100 box; if it didn't work, then purchase the ACU 200 box. The linear drive cost is $1850 + $850 for the ACU 200. Certainly, there will be additional costs for bracketing to the rudder stock or quadrant.

The ACU100 does not have terminals for the clutch on linear drives. Also it is about half the power of the ACU200.

 

[Johann]

A below deck AP is anything but economical.

A cost of $4-5K would not be surprising. Even more if you hire out the work. In addition to the drive unit you’ll need a rudder sensor and a bracket to attach it to the rudder shaft, along with so wiring up grades.

I recently had to replace my failed X10 course computer. Raymarine no longer has the parts for repair so an upgrade to the new system was required. I found that it can be more economical to buy components separately. From Hodges I got:

ACU-200 (includes rudder sensor) $760
EV-1 Sensor Core $650
P70s controller (required) $525
SeatalkNG 5 way connector $45

So $1980 before the drive unit or cables... $4-5k for a complete system seems spot on.

 

[colemj]

I think the OP already has the EV-1 and P70 as part of the wheel pilot kit. He could probably sell his ACU-100 for $200-300. But no getting around the below deck drive unit and RFU costing more than $600.

Mark