Cleating the Sheets...

RichH · Dec 26, 2012

Theres no real advantage for the use of swivel based cam cleats in this sort of application.

You can simply use and 'eye-ed' cam cleat or an 'eyed' trigger cleat. Examples:

http://www.shopsoundboatworks.com/h...=hanatrcamcl&gclid=CKKfoKGGubQCFcyf4AodSj8AxQ

or

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?8679] see #412 for a configuration with 'stropped eye'.

Christopher15294 · Dec 26, 2012

why not add self tailors to the winches instead? That would keep the deck clean, not accidentially release and not have to drill a hole in the deck.

justsomeguy · Dec 26, 2012

Squidd said:
I have the rubber "tailing helpers" on the sheet winchs, but haven't tried them out yet mostly cause I'm not sure how they are supposed to work...

Actual self tailers may be a project down the road, but for now I'm still figuring out how to work the stuff I have or at least bring it up to modern standards,,,

I hear those rubber tailing helpers need to have the winch drum completely loaded up with multiple turns, until the sheet contacts the rubber fairly tightly.
Hope they work for you.

Joe · Dec 26, 2012

Don't use a captive style cleat for your winch aided sheets. You can use cam, clam, jam or simple horn cleat.... but no bullseye fairleads....why.... because you need to be able to throw the sheet off the winch quickly.... the line must not be captive in anyway. The blue "winchers" are not self tailing devices, but you can use the "jaws" to secure a line on a winch.... in any event I would never use them for a jib sheet applications. You'll note that I had them on my halyard winches in the first picture..... they were removed after awhile... I hated them..... and have since been replaced with rope clutches for each line.... way, way, way better.

The swivel cam cleat in the picture would be a disaster, it has a bullet fairlead... no, no, no.

The flat, horn style cleats in your picture are not properly positioned for the winches. The normal method is to install a "jam" cleat at a 5 or 10 degree angle to the line's exit from the winch. A jam cleat looks like a horn cleat, but forward side is able to pinch the line after you take a wrap around the back side. The cheapest, and most common way to secure a lin coming out of a winch is to use a "clamcleat''.... ronstan's version is called a vee cleat......... but, again, use the open, non-captive styles so you can quick release you sheets. Here's a pic of my set up:

Chris Patterson · Dec 26, 2012

I'm ditto with Joe!!

Stu Jackson · Dec 27, 2012

Joe's right. Think about it. Also, search this board on "Winchers" - many discussions, including instructions how to use them properly.

dscribner · Dec 27, 2012

I asked a similar question a couple of years ago and planned to add a gadget or two to make trimming easier. The answer I used was way too simple. Instead of a clam cleat or cam cleat just wrap your sheet 3 times around your horn cleat and pull tight. The sheet will wedge into a small gap between one turn of itself and the cleat. A couple of spins is all it takes. I do this in all weather and have never had a sheet in the wind. Best thing is. . . no time or money invested in the solution! Others might pooh-pooh the idea because what works fine on a 25(26) footer will fail on a 35 footer.

Joe · Dec 27, 2012

dscribner said:
I asked a similar question a couple of years ago and planned to add a gadget or two to make trimming easier. The answer I used was way too simple. Instead of a clam cleat or cam cleat just wrap your sheet 3 times around your horn cleat and pull tight. The sheet will wedge into a small gap between one turn of itself and the cleat. A couple of spins is all it takes. I do this in all weather and have never had a sheet in the wind. Best thing is. . . no time or money invested in the solution! Others might pooh-pooh the idea because what works fine on a 25(26) footer will fail on a 35 footer.

You'll find that most older production boats came equipped with a horn cleat to secure the headsail sheets. If you look closely, you may also discover that they had a pinching (jam) side and an open side.... so simple, yet effective.

Upgrading to an open, cam style cleat allows the trimmer to simply pull back or lift up to make adjustments, rather than unwrap the line each time.

The horn style cleat is certainly secure, but less trimmer friendly.... so for a $35 upgrade I consider the cam to be money well spent. I even think spending $15 on a good quality CLAM/VEE cleat to be a cost effective upgrade.... although the clams/vees may be prone to slipping a bit with improper line size.

RichH · Dec 27, 2012

dscribner said:
I asked a similar question a couple of years ago and planned to add a gadget or two to make trimming easier. The answer I used was way too simple. Instead of a clam cleat or cam cleat just wrap your sheet 3 times around your horn cleat and pull tight. The sheet will wedge into a small gap between one turn of itself and the cleat. A couple of spins is all it takes. I do this in all weather and have never had a sheet in the wind. Best thing is. . . no time or money invested in the solution! Others might pooh-pooh the idea because what works fine on a 25(26) footer will fail on a 35 footer.

learn how to do a 'slipped cleat hitch' ... just a yank on the tail end totally frees the line from the horn cleat.

Sorry for the advice about eye-ed cam cleats with winches -- didnt read fully about the winches.
For all other devices such as fair-leads, sheaves, etc., eye-ed or 'stropped' cam cleats or triggers cleats (all mounted on 'wedged bases') are the standard fare.

wflowe2 · Dec 28, 2012

Winchers

I used the "rubber things" aka Winchers on a 22' Gloucester many years ago and they worked great for tailing sheets. The were also quick and easy to free the sheets.

Joe · Dec 28, 2012

wflowe2 said:
I used the "rubber things" aka Winchers on a 22' Gloucester many years ago and they worked great for tailing sheets. The were also quick and easy to free the sheets.

Sorry friend... I disagree.... if they worked so well, no one would be buying real self tailing winches. On a sheet winch with winchers you can't slip the line straight up and off quickly and, to make it "self" tail, the drum must be loaded all the way up... that's five or six wraps...but then there's no stripper to peel away the line so you still have to tail it. Maybe you're definition of tailing is different than mine....but I consider a self tailing winch capable of being operated one handed. Not possible with the winchers so... what's the point?

dscribner · Dec 28, 2012

My cleats are plain Jane horn cleats though a tapered horn "jam" cleat makes perfect sense. I looked for "slipped cleat hitch" but found nothing so it's probably under another name. I found a couple of other hitches but they still entail more work and time than three rotations and a tug.

justsomeguy · Dec 28, 2012

Google "Slippery hitch".
Sounds scary, huh? Works well, as long as tension remains on the sheet.

wflowe2 · Dec 28, 2012

Well friend, I didn't mean that Winchers make a winch self tailing- they don't. They work well for cleating in lieu of a horn cleat or drilling holes with backing plates and installing cam or jam cleats. You don't have to load anything much, as I remember, I usually used 3 wraps if there was much wind and fewer wraps in light air. As long as you are within easy reach of the winch, uncleating is just a matter of pulling the end of the sheet in the opposite direction out of the groove. I never had a sheet slip that was secured in the groove properly. Might have been one of the best $40 additions I made to help facilitate single handing.

I did mispeak in my earlier post and used the term tailing when I meant cleating.

Obviously your experience with them, if you have any, was different than mine.

Joe · Dec 28, 2012

wflowe2 said:
Well friend, I didn't mean that Winchers make a winch self tailing- they don't. They work well for cleating in lieu of a horn cleat or drilling holes with backing plates and installing cam or jam cleats. You don't have to load anything much, as I remember, I usually used 3 wraps if there was much wind and fewer wraps in light air. As long as you are within easy reach of the winch, uncleating is just a matter of pulling the end of the sheet in the opposite direction out of the groove. I never had a sheet slip that was secured in the groove properly. Might have been one of the best $40 additions I made to help facilitate single handing.

I did mispeak in my earlier post and used the term tailing when I meant cleating.

Obviously your experience with them, if you have any, was different than mine.

I have all the experience I want with those things........ read my previous post here.....

The blue "winchers" are not self tailing devices, but you can use the "jaws" to secure a line on a winch....You'll note that I had them on my halyard winches in the first picture..... they were removed after awhile... I hated them.....

Most people buy these things because they are marketed as a solution for converting standard winches to some kind of self tailing function.....but... what the find out after painstakingly putting them over the winch, is about all they are good for is cleating the line around the jaws.... something a simple horn or a clam/vee cleat will do at 1/3 the cost... plus the real cleats look better and are easier to use.... so..... Since Squidd's original post asked about options for his jibsheet cleats... the wincher was mentioned....along with other possible solutions. Our job here is to make responsible suggestions based on our experience .... and my experience with winchers places them far down on the list of solutions as a cleat.

What's really annoying is that once they are on (you need to apply liquid soap, liberally) they are almost impossible to remove..... I ended up cutting them off.

finding41 · Dec 28, 2012

I have a mash O cleats. Main halyard is a plastic horn cleat on the mast. Jib halyard is a Vee cleat and the jib sheets are held by open clam cleats.
I only like the clam cleats. I have had both the plastic horn and the Vee cleat fail. The horn broke a horn off.... just sailing... The Vee slips when it wants.
I have purchased clutches for my halyards and will be running everything to the cockpit in the spring. The open clam cleats will be replaced with new. (It's time) I will be putting a fair lead about 8-10" or so ahead of them so a stopper knot will keep the sheets out of the water when they are let go.

Thanks for the critique of the rubber self tailing things. I won't be using them.

Rick D · Dec 28, 2012

I Can Understand The Issue

Joe said:
I have all the experience I want with those things........ read my previous post here.....

Most people buy these things because they are marketed as a solution for converting standard winches to some kind of self tailing function.....but... what the find out after painstakingly putting them over the winch, is about all they are good for is cleating the line around the jaws.... something a simple horn or a clam/vee cleat will do at 1/3 the cost... plus the real cleats look better and are easier to use.... so..... Since Squidd's original post asked about options for his jibsheet cleats... the wincher was mentioned....along with other possible solutions. Our job here is to make responsible suggestions based on our experience .... and my experience with winchers places them far down on the list of solutions as a cleat.

What's really annoying is that once they are on (you need to apply liquid soap, liberally) they are almost impossible to remove..... I ended up cutting them off.

Well, I don't have a horse in this race, but I didn't find the same extent of problem. It's true, they don't self tail. I did find, however, when the winch was loaded up pretty good, I could take those extra wraps and have it tail enough to give me some reasonable help ie it held for me to move my hand around. I found the cleating the best advantage and abandoned the use of the fast cleats that were factory (dealer?) installed on the O'Day 27. I'd buy them again in a heartbeat. Cheap and in my experience, moderately useful.

Cleating the Sheets...

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