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circumnavigation

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Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Here's the list from one of their websites.

Sinking Underway
Struck submerged object 40%
Prop shaft or strut 16%
Below waterline fitting 16%
Grounding 8%
Stuffing box leak 8%
Storm/knockdowns 8%
Above waterline fitting 4%

 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
You might want to ask around about your rudder mod Hermit. What happens to your boat if the rudder hits something and does not bend or break off? On my boat it would tear the stern out leaving an awful hole. Maybe yours is far enough above the waterline to not be an issue. I had my rudder rebuilt after bending it. While it was out I found a leak source, hairline cracks from those groundings(pictured).
When I was asking about why I shouldn't take my C30 around the world, one of the comments was if I did I should have the hollow rudder shaft replaced with a solid shaft. The rudder is above the keel, but not by much.
After reading a few books, following some blogs and thinking about it, it seems two things you want to always have are the keel and the rudder to stay on the boat. Everything else can be dealt with even a dismasting. Some times you can deal with losing a keel and make it back unless it rips the keel stub out and the floor with it, which seems to be what usually happens when you lose a keel.
I think it is better to have a strong rudder post and let the boat structure deal with a hit than let the rudder break off.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
On an annual basis how many boats sink more than 25 miles from shore?
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
On an annual basis how many boats sink more than 25 miles from shore?
I don't know. It might not matter for this discussion. I would imagine that anybody sailing around the world, unless doing so non-stop, will spend some fair amount of time near shore b/c that's where most of the fun is going to be had! However, it is zero-sum game. Whereas the risk of striking an object offshore may be less than inshore, the consequences of a sinking offshore are much greater than inshore because rescue is much less "assured." It's all a game of playing the odds. Odds are, you won't strike an object that sinks the boat. But if you do, you'll go down in but a few minutes and if far offshore, it might be a long time b/f anybody finds you, if they ever do!!
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I have always heard that the thin places around the edges are the most dangeroous. If I were to circumnavigate I would stop at as many places as I could I have seen plenty of ocean.
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I don't know. It might not matter for this discussion. I would imagine that anybody sailing around the world, unless doing so non-stop, will spend some fair amount of time near shore b/c that's where most of the fun is going to be had! However, it is zero-sum game. Whereas the risk of striking an object offshore may be less than inshore, the consequences of a sinking offshore are much greater than inshore because rescue is much less "assured." It's all a game of playing the odds. Odds are, you won't strike an object that sinks the boat. But if you do, you'll go down in but a few minutes and if far offshore, it might be a long time b/f anybody finds you, if they ever do!!
Oh yeah, one more comment (which was my point in the beginning) is that you can increase the odds in your favor, however so slightly perhaps, by being in a boat more capable of surviving an impact than some other. So, I've been led to believe from many years of reading about sailboat designs, etc., that a full keel (or cut away) with an attached rudder "is the ticket" in that respect. But I have no "around the world cruising experience", nor am I likely to have!!
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,075
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Here's the list from one of their websites.

Sinking Underway
Struck submerged object 40%
Prop shaft or strut 16%
Below waterline fitting 16%
Grounding 8%
Stuffing box leak 8%
Storm/knockdowns 8%
Above waterline fitting 4%

From a purely statistical point of view, this is interesting, but it and your earlier post "touting" the 40% ignore a basic statistical fact: this is only of boats reporting "encounters."

It completely ignores the number of boats who have gone around and haven't hit anything.
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
From a purely statistical point of view, this is interesting, but it and your earlier post "touting" the 40% ignore a basic statistical fact: this is only of boats reporting "encounters."

It completely ignores the number of boats who have gone around and haven't hit anything.

What I said was that 40% of the BOATS THAT SINK (while underway), sank b/c of hitting a submerged object according to BOAT US (claim files). It could be higher than 40% if there are boats that have sunk but the cause was not discovered b/c nobody ever found the boat or the people. I did not say 40% of boats that travel the world ever (reportedly) struck an object, nor I did I say that 40% of boats that do strike an object sink.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
When I rebuilt my boat I had deams of making long passages and with knowledge of the dangers of striking floating objects I reinforced the hull forward of the companion with four plys of CSM and woven roving and then a layer of 1/2 inch Airex core and two plys of CSM and roving on that. The Airex will help to act like the membrane in a windshield so that even if the hull is severely cracked it may not be penetrated.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,195
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
could the results possibly have been skewed by the responder saying"oh but i HAD to have hit something!" rather than admitting he was over canvassed or had something else wrong..... operator error, for instance, as many off shore in pacific have done-- too much canvas, open forehatch, etc.... ins will cover the hit something, but the other is s.o.l....and how about those uninsured....LOL--i donot trust an insurance carrier or anyone involved with insurance as far as statistics go-- stats are too easily skewed in a direction desired by the statistician. i learned that in statistics classes. is easy.
i also do not trust responders who need the insurance claim to pay em according to the info given
as far as inspection of the boat after the fact--how many will send someone to underwater inspect the sunk boat in godknowswhereville....
.is the soul who lost the boat against the ins co.
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Well, as people often like to say: "Garbage in, garbage out!" So, who knows for sure what the truth is? But there have been a few spectacular cases that seem authentic and perhaps illustrate the point.

A strongly-built boat that won't twist itself apart after days in confused seas, with a reinforced bow, perhaps even a water-tight bulkhead aft of it, and a full keel with a protected rudder that cannot be easily knocked off or bent, a small cockpit w/large scuppers and small companion way, and a hull design that allows the boat to right itself past a 160-deg roll w/o going all the way over, is probably better than one without those attributes, if going around the world. Hey, what do they call those things--bluewater cruising yachts?
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I agree with the exception of full keel. That would mean old designs like the one shown below are unsuitable for offshore use. That would surprise many including the designer of this and many others like the Saga 43, several of which have crossed multiple oceans.
 

Attachments

Aug 29, 2011
27
Catalina 27 mobile
thanks everyone for all the info,i may end up with another blue water boat before i attempt to circumnavigate.for now i cant afford it.i have already put backing plates on most of rigging.i may build a watertight bulkhead where existing forward bulkhead is.im going to put a solid shaft in the rudder. my biggest fear is losing the mast and being dead in the water hundreds of miles out.im not really worried about hitting anything,but i would like to be prepared for that anyway.im just going to beef up the rigging,carry alot of extras.o and also i may narrow the companionway if its not to much work.larger drains for cockpit a must.well ive got a lot of work to do.thanks
 
Dec 20, 2010
294
Yankee Condore 21 Halifax
Read the story about Super Shrimpie. This is the story of an English ex marine with little experience. He sailed his little 6 meter twin keel around the world. I can't remember how many years it took him now though. This was truly minimalist sailing. More often at not at night he opted to bob about minimalizing the risk of hitting something at speed. He used a sextant to navigate by as well. 6M is about 19 foot 6'' and a bit, at the time the smallest boat to round the world. He did have some hairy moments though. So it seems its more about comfort ie big boat. The bigger the boat the more work to sail it. He did make her seaworthy I repeat 'Seaworthy'.

Just my 2 cents worth,
Brina
is anyone on this sit considering it?done it?its my life long dream.i may attemt it in my catalina 27.i had a 33 tahiti ketch that would would have been perfect,but lost it in a divorce.id like to hear what u all have to sey
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
The companion threshold should be at or above the coamings. So many boats had the companion threshold about six inches above the cockpit deck. And many have a cockpit that would hold a couple of tons of water if you get pooped and they come with 3/4 inch drains.
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Companionway Hatch Modification

I would not be very comfortable even taking the Bavaria 38 to sea (I mean, really to sea) without modifying the companionway hatch configuration. Even though fairly narrow compared to a Catalina of similar size, it is not a seaworthy design. Fairly pitiful, actually. If seriously pooped, I'm certain the water would just burst right through the hatch boards and down into the salon. I'd then have to go find them b/c getting it again-- good luck there. I'd like to put some kind of deep continuous track along the threshold (which is about 6" above the cockpit sole, as you say) and up the sides a ways into which I can insert a couple of thick pieces of plexiglass hinged part way up, and lock them into place. When I need to go down, I can drop the top piece down and step over it. That would mean the two hinged pieces would stand to about 2' high, but only one foot when let down. Another piece on top would fully seal the companion way, but that one would be out most of the time while sailing. I saw a design similar to that recently on a Dufour.
 
Nov 6, 2006
8,661
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
The Albin Vega 27 has done a lot of cross ocean stuff.. here is a clip from Yachting Monthly:
Meanwhile after 46 days at sea and a stop in the Azores, Denis Gorman (below) became the seventh finisher of the challenge when his Albin Vega 27, Lizzie-G, arrived in America on Friday morning.
This was an across the Atlantic race back in July last year..
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Lots of small boats have circumnavigated. Shrimpie, the Vega Lorna Doone and other Vegas I believe, John Guzzwell in Trekka (20' 6"), and many others. But although small they were mostly well built. Their interiors were well attached, the companionways were smaller, and the cockpit wells weren't huge or if designed that way were made smaller somehow. Comfort is the biggest issue related to size, along with ability to carry food and water of sufficient quantity.
 
Jul 27, 2011
3,819
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
.. If seriously pooped, I'm certain the water would just burst right through the hatch boards and down into the salon. I'd then have to go find them b/c getting it again-- good luck there.
The book Overboard! by Tougias is the tale of a couple of boats caught in an Atlantic storm that passed between Cape Hatteras and Bermuda in the spring of 2005. One of the boats is a Bavaria 41 named At Ease that was trying to make it from Gloucester, VA to Charleston when it got hammered about 50 n. mi. off of Cape Hatteras.

From page 39: "He glances to his left and realizes he's looking at the overhead, which means he's lying on the port-side wall. The panic is replaced by adrenaline; he jumps to this feet, thinking, Another knockdown! He looks up the companion-way ladder. Torrents of green water avalanche down the steps, charging at the men. The companion way hatch is gone and there is nothing to stop the sea."

Actually, the boat rolled over in steep waves > 30 ft, and took a couple of knockdowns as well. They were rescued from the boat by the CG, and the boat was never see again by them. However, it was not actually sinking when they got off. If they had not blown out one port light and the companion way hatch boards, the boat may have survived it.
 
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