Changing the head next week-end on a Hunter31 - Tips?

[sarfata]

Hey everyone,

Recently boat a 1987 Hunter 31 and new here on these forums. The head is in pretty poor condition (pump not working, bowl green) so I figured I would just change it rather than try to repair the pump. The pipes are all in pretty good condition and do not seem to smell so I intend to re-use them.

Looks like a simple project but when I started looking into this, I found myself with one big question:
The current head seems to be bolted into the inner hull. I do not see any access to the "inside" side of them. Are the bolts inside epoxied to the hull? If not how do you not lose them when removing the old head?


Two more ideas I would love feedback on:

1 - We are currently using the boat for day and week-end sails so I think I am going to use fresh water rather than sea water to flush the bowl. My boat has an extra fresh water tank and we have way more than we need. I will keep a Y valve to switch to sea-water intake for longer trips. Any tips or comments on this idea?

2 - Been reading about electric head and I am specifically interested in having the macerator pump do its work before stuff is pushed to the waste tank.It seems like a great way to avoid clogged pipes and problems later on. Has anyone here done this on a boat this size? Any tips there? I am also interested in the extra convenience for guests.

Thanks for your help!

thomas

 

[Steve Dion]

I would not do this. Take a look at Peggie Halls book regarding using fresh water supplies with manual heads.

You can just rinse the toilet with fresh water when you depart each time. If you have a dedicated water source that you never plan on using for any other purpose it may be fine.

The bolts that hold the toilet down are lag bolts. Just unscrew them and you will be good to go.

 

[seadaddler]

Sea Era

I have a raritan sea era and love it and one of the best rated and raritan
makes very good heads for sure,
I have my sea era hooked up to sea water but keep the intake closed for sea water and have a separate spray hose hooked to under the sink to fresh water and use that to flush.
Never hook up sea water to any fresh water connections no matter what.:naughty:

 

[Stu Jackson]

Electric heads can use fresh water, but not all of them. Do your homework. Manual toilets should never use fresh water connections to drinking water. Ever.

Peggie Hall's Top Ten Hits

Head Replacement 101 - Installation of PHII Head http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3797.0.html

Head Odors 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.0.html

Head Odors 101.1 - "T" into sink drain: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.msg38216.html#msg38216

Head Leaks and Vented Loops 101.1.a http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5865.0.html


Head Odors 101.2 The Difference between KO & Odorlos (scroll up to Reply #2) http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=890493&highlight=odorlos

Head Odors 101.3 Flix of New Vent http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8185.msg57288.html#msg57288

Head Hoses 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5738.0.html

Head Pumps 101 Why just pouring water into the bowl is NOT a good idea http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5865.msg40604.html#msg40604

Fresh Water System Recommissioning 101 - Peggie Hall's "Cocktail" http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5836.0.html

 

[sarfata]

Thanks for all the reply!

(Repeat 3 times) I will not connect my fresh water system to the head intake. Thanks for the very clear advice I will use the faucet drain instead.

I just ordered Peggie's book on Amazon. I had heard about her while reading some other posts but never realized there was actually a book. Looks like there will be a lot to learn in there.

I have read all the links sent by Stu and I see that the head bolts pattern is not standard (should have guessed that too...). Has anyone ever found out how to access the other side on a Hunter 31?

I am adding two pictures of the current head. Not sure if I have enough space for an electric head with a pump. I will do a lot of measuring before starting buying a new head.

cheers,
thomas

 

[Stu Jackson]

I have read all the links sent by Stu and I see that the head bolts pattern is not standard (should have guessed that too...). Has anyone ever found out how to access the other side on a Hunter 31?

Thomas,

I suggest you go back and reread my links. Head Replacement 101.

The bolts are LAG bolts, there are NO nuts below.

 

[sarfata]

Stu,

I did read your post but I was not familiar with "lag bolts" and misunderstood what they are.

For anyone else reading this, this is what a lag bolt look like.

Thanks a lot!

thomas

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Your toilet is a Raritan PH II...rated best manual toilet in its class for nearly 30 years....and hands down, the best manual toilet still in production in the US..keep it lubricated, rebuild it about 5-6 years, it'll last 20+ years. Trust me, it IS secured to the head sole with lag bolts (no nuts...they back out..no below-the sole access needed). As for the bolt PATTERN, there is no "standard" configuration...when switching out toilets, there will always be holes or fill and/or drill unless you replace with the identical make/model and the mfr hasn't ever changed it.

Your bowl may be green, but it's porcelain...it'll clean up. I'd keep it and replace the pump and base, which will give you a brand new PH II for about half the price of a complete new toilet. The online store here sells it...the part # is PHIILBA.

There's a much easier way to deal with sea water intake odors than messing with a separate flush water tank...search the archives in this forum for "intake odor"...you'll also find it in my book.

Or you can buy a toilet designed to use pressurized flush water...toilets designed by the mfr CAN be safely connected to the fresh water plumbing. The Raritan "Fresh Head" is the first--and so far the only--MANUAL toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water to flush...check it out here: Fresh Head

Macerating electric toilets are nice, but it's really not necessary to puree your pooh before it goes into the tank or even while dumping the tank. Solid waste is about 75% water to start with...gets broken up pretty well going through the pump and plumbing...and dissolves completely in the tank within about an hour at most. Waiting an hour will also clear clogs that aren't caused by flushing something you didn't eat that won't EVER dissolve...but those will jam up a macerator, so having a macerating toilet won't help.

After you've had a chance to browse my book, you're welcome to send me an email (NOT a PM please!) with any more questions

 

[wufibugs]

Peggy, I meant to ask whether the holding tank vent line at the top of the tank has to always remain higher than the tank to properly vent odors?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Peggie, as always, is right. Sorry, I missed blowing up your pictures, good head. The LBA is what you should get. Some of what Peggie mentioned are in the links I provided before. Good luck.

 

[sarfata]

Thanks Peggie! Very honored to get advice directly from you. I got your book yesterday and already went through chapters 1,2 and 4 (I do not have any odor problem yet). The title does not do justice to your book in my opinion: It goes way beyond boat odors!

I will take your advice and stick with the PHEII. I guess I will start by taking it apart and cleaning everything (including walls and support) this week-end.

One of the reason for thinking about using fresh water is that the head intake is currently frozen closed (it has been for at least 3 years according to the previous owner inspection report). I plan on getting the boat out soon to change that valve. I will temporary hook up the sink drain or just use a bucket of water to test the new pump when setting up the new head.
Speaking of water intake, I do not think there is a vented loop between the pump and the bowl in my current installation. One more thing on the todo list.

For added fun one of the previous owners opened the top of the holding tank with a jigsaw and put a bladder in it. The tank seemed "under pressure" so my first step will be to check the vent and try to pump it out. (Attaching a picture).

After reading what Peggie had to say about bladder tanks I think I will consider trying to fit a traditional holding tank in that space (will take measurement this week-end).
Another option would be to re-convert it into a real holding tank but that might be hard because they probably made huge holes to get the pipes in. I will look into that too.

Thanks again everyone for suggestion and comments. This is very helpful!

thomas

 

[IH82BL8]

When I replaced the head on my H31 I had to drill new mounting holes (don't remember why). After the head was in place, I installed the seat and lid only to discover that the lid touches the front of the vanity and does not rest completely against the bulkhead. If you drill new mounting holes, keep this in mind.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Peggy, I meant to ask whether the holding tank vent line at the top of the tank has to always remain higher than the tank to properly vent odors?

Since your tank isn't likely to be totally above the waterline at any angle of heel, a vent thru-hull below the top of the tank is likely to take on water. However, as long as the thru-hull stays out of the water, the vent line can dip below the top of a tank and still function as a vent.

So where to run the vent line depends on whether you just want to vent the tank without regard for whether you're also gassing anyone within 50' of your boat, or whether you want to create the aerobic environment in the tank that's needed to prevent odors from occurring. A 1" vent line that's short (<5'), straight, and as close to horizontal as possible--doesn't rise steeper than 45 degrees--will do the best job of keeping the tank aerobic and therefore odor-free. Lots of discussion about this over the years and it's also covered in detail in my book (available from the online store here).

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I will take your advice and stick with the PHEII.

Nooooo...NOT the PH *E* II... you want the MANUAL PH II. [FONT=&quot]If it already has a motor, [FONT=&quot]get rid of it [FONT=&quot]along with the worn out pump an[FONT=&quot]d base.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Raritan PH II is an outstanding MANUAL toilet, but adding a motor turns it into a horrible excuse for an electric toilet. The motor only replaces the pump handle..the pump is still a manual pump. The motor pumps the toilet much faster, and with a much shorter stroke than pumping manually, which causes it to take longer to prime and therefore wears out the rubber o-rings etc much faster...and also causes the toilet to "choke" on flushes that deliberate pumping manually can push through...and it has a high amperage draw compared to most electric toilets. I know a lot of people who've added the motor who wish they hadn't...who've opted to disconnect it again permanently and put the pump handle back on. The PHE II (electric version of the PH II) also costs more than a real electric toilet.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For some reason sailors want to have it both ways--the "push button convenience" of an electric toilet that can be converted to manual in the event of a catastrophic power failure. But there's no advantage to that...'cuz if you don't have enough power to flush an electric toilet, you don't have enough to power nav equipment, lights, communication equipment or anything else either...but you DO still have a bucket! So whether you can flush a toilet or have to resort to using the bucket is the LEAST of your worries![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So if you want a manual toilet, the PH II is an excellent choice...but if you want an electric toilet, go with one that's designed to BE an electric toilet from the ground up, not a "hybrid." [/FONT]


...I will temporary hook up the sink drain or just use a bucket of water to test the new pump when setting up the new head.

I'd make that permanent, not just temporary.

Speaking of water intake, I do not think there is a vented loop between the pump and the bowl in my current installation. One more thing on the todo list.

Good plan.

After reading what Peggie had to say about bladder tanks I think I will consider trying to fit a traditional holding tank in that space (will take measurement this week-end).
Another option would be to re-convert it into a real holding tank but that might be hard because they probably made huge holes to get the pipes in. I will look into that too.

I strongly recommend that pull that whole mess out and replace it with a new tank....AND hoses! Your best source for a tank is Ronco Plastics (no relation to Ron Popiel and his VegoMatic)...the make TOP quality rotomolded water and waste tanks for a very reasonable price and have more than 400 molds...over 100 of which are non-rectangular. And they install fittings in the sizes, locations and quantity specified by the customer when they make the tank. I believe you can order through the store here at a good discount off their already very reasonable price. Download their catalog Ronco Plastics Marine Catalog and then get with me privately to figure out what size, shape and location will work best for you.

 

[Nelsonhow]

When I first got my H-30 about 10 years ago it went right into the water. After a few months I notice that the interior cabin was getting punky smelling so much that I could barely stay in the cabin. The holding tank was clean and empty. I did the hose test with a clean wet cloth and confirmed that all the hoses were permeated and also that the old head pump was not working. Not being able to stand it any longer I decided to remove and replace all the hoses and the head while in the water.

I purchased a head and all the necessary sanitation hoses and clamps using Peggy's recommendations. DBuy Peggy's book it's worth every penny!) On a nice day I rowed out to the boat on the mooring with all the parts. I unclamped the hoses and easily removed the head..... no problem. All the parts went into the dingy.

Next came the hoses. I disconnected them from the thru hulls. (I had plugs in case the valves didn't close but all was well). No leaks...this was like clock work how hard could the rest be. :Liar:

Well I pulled and pushed, tugged and swore at each hose. One by one they all came out except the last one to the holding tank. I go down on my hands and keen and pulled and tugged and pushed and swore like a true sailor some more. All of a sudden the last hose let loose dosing me liberally in the most smelly and vile concoction of you have ever had contact with. I immediately jumped in the water to wash off but to no avail. THE SMELL WAS WITH ME.

I climbed back onto the boat and proceeded load all of the hoses and old parts into the dingy. I closed up the boat (the new head would wait for another day) and rowed into the wind back to the dock. Eyes tearing, I gagged all the way due to the smell of the hoses and me.......

At the dock the attendant would not let me put any of the parts in the dumpster. Too smelly for them! :naughty: Well into the trunk they went. I gagged and coughed, eyes tearing all the way home.

I put them out for the trash man at home and even he would not take them. I had to finally double bag each part in plastic and dispose of them one at a time in the trash. Even the raccoons left my garbage pails alone for a few months.

My wife kept her distance for several days too.......:cry:

Well the next week I cleaned the compartment with Simple Green and Dawn dish soap and then a bleach solution. And the following week I replace the head and the hoses again using Peggy's recommendations. Although the head is plumbed to seawater I have yet to open the valve. I use a gallon jug of fresh water to flush the head.

Well it's done..... it works but to tell the truth, given the fact that I rarely overnight a Port-a-Poty would probably work just as well.....