there is usually enough wire on the harness to run the regulator outside the engine compartment and away from that heat. My Balmar ARS-5 failed and Balmar blamed it on the heat expansion and contraction. I installed the replacement outside the engine room and ran the temp sensor wire to the alt. things are working well.
Challenges Keeping Batteries Up at Anchor
- Thread starter Kings Gambit
- Start date
Good advice regarding regulator location; but, my problem was that the alternator temperature, as measured by the alt temp sensor, was exceeding the Alternator Temperature Threshold (AL1) (pre-programmed in the MC614). When the alt temp rose above the AL1 set point of 104C the MC614 would reduce the field output by approximately 50%. This would cycle until the batteries reached a sufficient charged the alt output would drop and subsequently the alt temperature. Once I got some serious air flowing across the alternator and adjusted the belt manager, the alternator temperature seemed to be happy.
We need to remember that the vast majority of "high performance" aftermarket alternators are based on "small case" automotive alternators. The Balmar, Electromaax or my own CMI alternators are all based on a heavily modified CS130D frame. While this frame is ooodles better than the older 10DN frames, that used to be used, they are still limited due to cooling capabilities.
These alts are capable of delivering a huge portion of their total output at a very low RPM. Low RPM = low cooling capability. High output at low RPM is part of the high performance design criteria for a cruising boat.. However this frame capable of spinning at upwards of 18,000 RPM continuously. At 18,000 RPM you'd get a LOT more cooling, yet we turn them very, very slowly in comparison.
While these alts are redesigned and hopped-up in numerous ways, they are still small case alternators.
A mistake many installers and DIY's make, due to what I do consider quasi-misleading marketing, so not entirely their fault, is to believe that a 70A, 100A, 120A or 150A high performance small case alternator can run at this output rating, in bulk, all day long. This = FAIL!
Nothing could be further from the truth. Even modified super-duty large frame brushless alternators, such as those based on a 28SI frame etc., can't run at full bore for hours on end. They do better than a small case, sure, but they still can't cut the mustard into a LiFePO4 bank unrestricted and non-temp protected.. I have seen numerous large frame alternators cooked, when folks believe incorrectly, that a large frame alt can run at full bore for hours on end. Even these very, very expensive large frame alternators require temp protection.
The only way I know of to get full output, or close to it, from any small case alt, is to remove the internal rectification and remotely rectify the alternator. This is what I have done on my own vessel but I am driving a LiFePO4 and do not really have the space for a large frame alt.
Bottom Line: If you desire a steady 100A output you buy a 120A or 140A output small case alt, and de-tune it in Belt Manager. If you desire a steady 150A output, with a small case alt, you buy a Balmar AT-200 and de-tune it...
Yes the Balmar regulators should not be installed in an engine bay. Especially not up high where the concentrated heat is.
This is the job of the Alt temp sensor. Balmar however has since changed the way it cools the alternator. I call it "Adaptive Temp Sensing" and have really been pushing Balmar to market it because no other regulator maker has it and it is significantly better than 100%>50%>100%>50% or 100>0%>100%>0%. It was a change made due to field requests and one Balmar did make while the engineer who designed it was still alive.. With the new adaptive temp sensing field output moves up and down in 5% increments and essentially finds the max output sweet spot.
I still prefer to use the alt temp sensor as an insurance policy and limit the max output in Belt Manager. This means a much longer life for the alt.
This is why limiting the alt in Belt Manager yielded significantly better performance than depending upon the old temp sensing circuitry. Sure you made a 5-20% decrease in max output but it is steady. With the new temp sensing there is no more ping-ponging but I still don't like bouncing an alt off it maximum all the time hence Belt Manager as primary limiting then alt temp sensor as an insurance policy..
In my article LiFePO4 On Boats (LINK) I have an entire section devoted to alternators. Ignore the LiFePo4 stuff and skip to the alternator part.
Also one area folks routinely screw up on (including the voltage regulator manuals), for optimal performance, is proper voltage sensing. Alternators & Voltage Sensing - Why It's Important (LINK)
I understand that bigger is normally better to dissipate the heat. But in most sailboat cruising cases, all we are asking the alternator to provide is say 3 hours (or less) at 70A. After that the battery bank will be in or around 85%+ SOC. The demand on the alternator will be much less thus the alternator heat subsequently decreases. For Kings Gambit application, would not a single pulley 100A alternator with an external smart multi-stage regulator (MC614) be suitable?
As full time liveaboards, we can't survive on solar alone with our present array of 450 watts. There just isn't enough direct sunlight every day to get anywhere near their rated output, and we live in the tropics. I added a windgen, and though it does exactly as advertised, it just can't make the amps w/o the wind.
Unless you want to look like the Spruce Goose, with lots of propellers and wings for your solar display, a small battery charging generator is a pretty good solution. Honda used to make (and may still?) a gas powered 12 volt only battery charging unit that was small and almost silent.
Otherwise, break the bank and live large with a diesel installation. Lots of perks if your admiral loves the "better things" in life, like air conditioning, microwave ovens, heating and don't forget that bread maker!
Unless you want to look like the Spruce Goose, with lots of propellers and wings for your solar display, a small battery charging generator is a pretty good solution. Honda used to make (and may still?) a gas powered 12 volt only battery charging unit that was small and almost silent.
Otherwise, break the bank and live large with a diesel installation. Lots of perks if your admiral loves the "better things" in life, like air conditioning, microwave ovens, heating and don't forget that bread maker!
Uh? Is that a joke?
One does not need AC in southern California when anchored out. We don't even use the microwave at home to cook anything except a knockwurst or two, to quick-bake a potato, or to re-heat leftovers. Use it to re-heat coffee. On the boat we fry the knockwurst and potato, or boil; there are no leftovers (that's why I always come home a few pounds light after a couple of weeks on the hook), and if the coffee gets cold b/f I drink it all, the ceramic mug sits a few seconds on the propane burner. Keeping the batteries up for heating using the Espar is the only issue; which I'm working here on solving--thanks to the great input available on this forum!
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NotCook
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- Dec 29, 2008
- 805
Hey Capta, what is your refrigeration drawing? We are working on convering to DC refrigeration (from AC - gag!), and were told we would only need to add 350 watts of solar to cover it (SeaFrost).
Kings, down here, we start putting blankets on the bed and wearing long pants and sweatshirts when it gets down to be 79!
We have 110 volt AC refrigeration (Sea Frost), so it's no draw on the system. I'm not prepared to go completely DC refrigeration yet. If I add a DC system, I'll still pull the boxes down with the 110 system (much faster) and try to maintain it w/the 12 volts.
You've got to remember, that's 350 watts under perfect conditions, which might be only an hour or three a day on average. And about 12 hours of zero watts in the dark.
I have a pretty large freezer with spillover and poor insulation with 2 of the old style seafrost plates and a 12 volt system. My 480w of solar keeps me above 80% SOC almost all the time.
NotCook
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- Dec 29, 2008
- 805
Yeah, for that reason, I'm trying to decide if I really want to remove the AC storage plates, or keep them and try to figure out how to fit the additional DC cold plates in there.
We have wind also, and the way the trades blow, that is a near 24 hour a day additional source. Over the week of this past Thanksgiving we did experience e days in a row of near constant rain and overcast, but so far in our experience, we haven't encountered many days when there are only 1-3 hours of direct sunlight! Our challenge is where to place the panels. We have one 123W panel on the davits, and there is room for one 300W panel on the pilot house. About the only other practical alternative would be to hang one on the rail back off the quarterdeck - not aesthetically pleasing, but doable.
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Are your plates single system or double system? My Seafrost plates have 2 complete sets of tubing for 2 separate compressors. I have an engine drive system and I used to have a 110v system. That was the old way of doing things. I removed the 110v compressor and the 12v replacement was the same footprint. So now I have 12v and engine drive both chilling the same 2 cold plates.
Not unless it is melting at an unsustainable rate. Compare the pounds you are going through to what you would exhale (about 2.3 pounds per day per person). A non-concern for most.
Direct sunlight, as in shining directly or almost directly down on the panels, not at an angle. Some tilt the panels to extend that period, but I wasn't interested in doing that.
Learning more about the Balmar 6 Series alternator. The 6 Series 150 amp comes with a dual-groove pulley; yet, few (if any) engines installed in the size range of my boat, for example, are equipped with dual-groove pulleys on the crank or water pump. High capacity alternators require, I was told, about 1 hp for each 25 amp of production from it. So, a 150-amp alternator needs about 6 hp of engine power to achieve its full output. Standard single-groove pulleys with the single belt cannot drive the alternator at 6 hp due to the belt slipping. The magnetic field resistance inside the alternator at maximum output forces the use of two standard drive belts, or a serpentine belt system, which grip(s) the pulleys adequately to drive the alternator at 6 hp without slipping. With the multi-stage external regulator, however, you can step down the magnetic field strength inside the alternator to a point where it produces only 110 amp (less hp required), which can be driven with the single-pulley, single-belt, system. Even with the serpentine belt system installed, you might still wish to recover engine hp to drive the boat, so would make use of the regulator there to step down the alternator output, making the saved hp available again to turn the prop, etc. So, the unit can be "tuned down" using the external regulator (purchased separately) to run with the single pulley/single belt; or, the alternative serpentine belt system can also be purchased and installed in addition to the regulator, to permit full output from the alternator.
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No challenges here. Eight kilowatt Genset does a good job keeping the 480amp battery up to snuff along with hot water, cooking, etc. Run it for an hour and a half every other day. That brings the bank voltage from 12.2v to 12.8v. Has worked for us over the years.
Mostly, just chatting with one of the technical guys at Balmar who was quite informative. Now need to discover how the unit will fit the mounting on the engine that the Hitachi now uses. Also, I chatted with a fellow at the Island last weekend who had three 100-watt flexible solar panels mounted across the top of the Bimini of his Bene 393 (nice boat). Appeared to be a very simple & convenient set-up. The price/watt of these flexible panels is evidently dropping. Of course, as I remarked at the beginning of this thread:no sun--no volts.
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Well, I got the Balmar 6 Series, 150-amp alternator installed on my Yanmar 3JH3e, and the external multi-stage regulator also installed and functioning. I ran into a snag, however. The system has a 70-amp battery isolator in place. I'm presently running on the one 1/2" belt with the Belt Load Manager of the regulator tuned down to 45% of alternator capacity (0.45 x 150 amp = 67.5 amp). Now what? Replace the isolator with a higher capacity one (160 amp) or remove it from the system? According to the professionals, the single belt option will drive the alternator only as high as about 110 amp of output anyway. But when I change over to the serpentine belt drive I'll want to run at the higher amps; so, that obviously will force the issue.
? According to the professionals, the single belt option will drive the alternator only as high as about 110 amp of output anyway. But when I change over to the serpentine belt drive I'll want to run at the higher amps; so, that obviously will force the issue.
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If you have an isolator that is diode based, then get rid of it. The diode based ones drop the voltage down to about 13.8 v which is not enough for bulk charging.
What you want is a charging relay, something like this one from Blue Sea. ML-ACR Automatic Charging Relay - 12V DC 500A - Blue Sea Systems At a 500 Amp capacity, it is overkill for your application, the other model is rated at 120 Amps and costs about half as much. There may be other similar products out there, just stay away from diode based combiner/isolators.
What you want is a charging relay, something like this one from Blue Sea. ML-ACR Automatic Charging Relay - 12V DC 500A - Blue Sea Systems At a 500 Amp capacity, it is overkill for your application, the other model is rated at 120 Amps and costs about half as much. There may be other similar products out there, just stay away from diode based combiner/isolators.
What an upgrade. Good stuff. You will definitely see a huge difference in your new system from the old. Wind generators and solar panels are nice (and green) but not like the real thing. No wind, like where we all try to anchor, overcast and shading minimizes the output of these 2 systems. A HO alternator is always at the ready. Just a couple of things that you probably have already considered but here goes.
At this high of a charging rate, heat at the batteries will definitely come into play. So the Balmar Battery Temperature Sensor (MC-TS-B) will be needed if not already installed. Also you must be bordering on the maximum charge rate your batteries will handle. I have commonly seen recommended rates of C/20 and C/10 and as high as C/5 and C/3. Maine stated in this thread (and elsewhere) "25 - 30% of Ah capacity when HOT". My US Battery 6V GC data sheet shows a charging recommendation Bulk Rate of: "Constant current @~10% of C/20 Ah in amps to 2.45+/-0.05 volts per cell (e.g. 7.35 volts +/-0.15 volts per 6 volt battery). Ensure that you verify with the manufacturer your maximum charge rate; otherwise, you run into the ramifications of overcharging. Ensure that you program your new regulator with the settings as recommended by MS and you are well on your way to Admiral (and skipper) happiness.