I am curious, how many people that have purchased a new Hunter, in the U.S., since 1997, think their boat is CE Certified? This question pertains to all Hunters.
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Sure it is Bob!
Bob, I am confused. Do you have a boat that isn't? Mine is. All you have to do is look in your owners manual for the answer. The factory owner's manual for my boat has a copy of the CE certificate and "Certification Details."
Bob, I am confused. Do you have a boat that isn't? Mine is. All you have to do is look in your owners manual for the answer. The factory owner's manual for my boat has a copy of the CE certificate and "Certification Details."
CE is a statement of seaworthiness
Bill: The CE Certification of a boat is awarded by the IMCI (International Marine Certification Institute) in Brussels. It is an assurance that a boat and its' hardware are designed and manufactured a level of seaworthiness , and that this level will be consistantly maintained. There are 4 catagories: 1. Catagory "A" - "Ocean" (The highest and most seaworthy), Catagory "B" - "Offshore", Catgory "C" - "Inshore" Catagory "D" "Sheltered Waters" Without a CE rating and certification all you have are the "assurances","no problems", "mumbo jumbo", and a long list of cited "sea stories" about how some soul made a circumnavigation in one of their boats. You'll also get "it's built to NMMA specs." Just for fun, ask how that exact NMMA spec that a boat is built to relates to the CE Catagory "A" - "Ocean" directives for certification. I also consider consider it an insurance policy to quality construction and design.
Bill: The CE Certification of a boat is awarded by the IMCI (International Marine Certification Institute) in Brussels. It is an assurance that a boat and its' hardware are designed and manufactured a level of seaworthiness , and that this level will be consistantly maintained. There are 4 catagories: 1. Catagory "A" - "Ocean" (The highest and most seaworthy), Catagory "B" - "Offshore", Catgory "C" - "Inshore" Catagory "D" "Sheltered Waters" Without a CE rating and certification all you have are the "assurances","no problems", "mumbo jumbo", and a long list of cited "sea stories" about how some soul made a circumnavigation in one of their boats. You'll also get "it's built to NMMA specs." Just for fun, ask how that exact NMMA spec that a boat is built to relates to the CE Catagory "A" - "Ocean" directives for certification. I also consider consider it an insurance policy to quality construction and design.
I "THOUGHT" it was until - - - - - -
Yes, I think, no, make that "thought, I bought a CE Catagory "A" - "Ocean" boat. When we were shopping for our boat in 1998, we had narrowed our search to the H$%) or the Island Packet 45. Seaworthiness has always been one of our top priorities and our idea of a "passage making" boat was one that was rugged enough to go anywhere, with systems to support such cruising. The CE rating was our single assurance of those attributes. When the question arose during the "sales pitch" and demo, we were assured by the salesman that the Hunter 450 was "CE certified Catagory "A." The reference to the Owners Manual in the baot confirmed that assertion. Since the Island Packet was $85K more, and both boats were certified CE Catagory "A", we bought the Hunter. I have always felt a certain level of "cpmfort" in that knowledge, until two weeks ago. While checking with IMCI on any directives covering engine access as it pertains to CE certification, I found out that my boat is NOT certified to any CE catagory. As far as I can find to date, the boat lacks quite a bit of CE Catagory "A" approved hardware, such as hatches, ports, locking thru-hulls, LP gas line plumbing, stove shielding, etc. I am continuing to review the directives to see just how deficient my boat might be from any certification. I guess to answer your question, Yes I thought I bought a CE rated boat. That is NOT what I have.
Yes, I think, no, make that "thought, I bought a CE Catagory "A" - "Ocean" boat. When we were shopping for our boat in 1998, we had narrowed our search to the H$%) or the Island Packet 45. Seaworthiness has always been one of our top priorities and our idea of a "passage making" boat was one that was rugged enough to go anywhere, with systems to support such cruising. The CE rating was our single assurance of those attributes. When the question arose during the "sales pitch" and demo, we were assured by the salesman that the Hunter 450 was "CE certified Catagory "A." The reference to the Owners Manual in the baot confirmed that assertion. Since the Island Packet was $85K more, and both boats were certified CE Catagory "A", we bought the Hunter. I have always felt a certain level of "cpmfort" in that knowledge, until two weeks ago. While checking with IMCI on any directives covering engine access as it pertains to CE certification, I found out that my boat is NOT certified to any CE catagory. As far as I can find to date, the boat lacks quite a bit of CE Catagory "A" approved hardware, such as hatches, ports, locking thru-hulls, LP gas line plumbing, stove shielding, etc. I am continuing to review the directives to see just how deficient my boat might be from any certification. I guess to answer your question, Yes I thought I bought a CE rated boat. That is NOT what I have.
CE Cert's
We have a new H260, with a cert of C and she's a dream to sail under normal conditions, but let the wind pick up and the chop get to 3 foot and we're fighting to stay in control... and we found ourselves "not" in control more than once. Weather helm is an understatement and even with a reefed main and partial jib, a good gust will take you to a 35 degrees heel as she turns to the wind... wether "you" want to or not. Definitely a loss of control. Better then any ride at Kings Dominion. There have been days where we're found we just couldn't sail in one direction, and I'm not taking about "in irons" either. More than once it's been the direction of our marina. We drop the sails and start the iron eagle.
We have a new H260, with a cert of C and she's a dream to sail under normal conditions, but let the wind pick up and the chop get to 3 foot and we're fighting to stay in control... and we found ourselves "not" in control more than once. Weather helm is an understatement and even with a reefed main and partial jib, a good gust will take you to a 35 degrees heel as she turns to the wind... wether "you" want to or not. Definitely a loss of control. Better then any ride at Kings Dominion. There have been days where we're found we just couldn't sail in one direction, and I'm not taking about "in irons" either. More than once it's been the direction of our marina. We drop the sails and start the iron eagle.
Greg: We're Not So Sure!
Greg (and others): We have been wondering about this one for some time. Our owner's manual has a page that says that all H340's "that display the plaque shown on the following page" are CE "A". Although our owner's manual has that page, we can't find that plaque anywhere on the boat! If you go to the Hunter website and go to the specification page for the H340, it says there that the H340 is CE "A". But we still can't find that plaque anywhere on our boat! Did the plaque just get missed when our boat was built? Are only the H340's that are built in the US and shipped to Europe in fact CE "A" certified? But for boats built for US sales do they use different hardware (i.e., less costly) and those boats therefore do NOT meet CE "A"? We have been wondering about this for some time. Maybe it's time for an inquiry to Greg Emerson. BTW, if you are intending serious offshore voyaging, CE "A" might not be adequate criteria. There are boats that "meet" CE "A" standards, and boats that "substantially exceed" CE "A" standards. There are many boats that "meet" CE "A" that we would not take on serious offshore passage making, including our beloved H340. None of this would have changed our decision to buy the H340. We expect to be coastal cruisers, we don't need battleship seaworthiness, and the H340 had all the features that we needed or wanted for our intended use. We LOVE 'Syzygy', CE "A" certified or not. Still,....it would be nice to know..... Carl and Juliana Dupre H340, s/v 'Syzygy'
Greg (and others): We have been wondering about this one for some time. Our owner's manual has a page that says that all H340's "that display the plaque shown on the following page" are CE "A". Although our owner's manual has that page, we can't find that plaque anywhere on the boat! If you go to the Hunter website and go to the specification page for the H340, it says there that the H340 is CE "A". But we still can't find that plaque anywhere on our boat! Did the plaque just get missed when our boat was built? Are only the H340's that are built in the US and shipped to Europe in fact CE "A" certified? But for boats built for US sales do they use different hardware (i.e., less costly) and those boats therefore do NOT meet CE "A"? We have been wondering about this for some time. Maybe it's time for an inquiry to Greg Emerson. BTW, if you are intending serious offshore voyaging, CE "A" might not be adequate criteria. There are boats that "meet" CE "A" standards, and boats that "substantially exceed" CE "A" standards. There are many boats that "meet" CE "A" that we would not take on serious offshore passage making, including our beloved H340. None of this would have changed our decision to buy the H340. We expect to be coastal cruisers, we don't need battleship seaworthiness, and the H340 had all the features that we needed or wanted for our intended use. We LOVE 'Syzygy', CE "A" certified or not. Still,....it would be nice to know..... Carl and Juliana Dupre H340, s/v 'Syzygy'
I have a 2001 450. In the owners manual is a copy of the certification that states the catagory, sea and wind capabilities. Len Fagan
CE
I can't guarantee it but from what I can see, the equipment is the same whether the boat is built here or in England. I suspect that all of the equipment, hatches, ports, etc. meet minimum CE requirements. I do not think that Hunter would be so stupid to advertise the boat as having certain CE capabilities and not being able to meet them. IMO, that would be fraud and I suspect if that were the case, owners could insist on the boat brought up to specs or return the boat. There may be an upcharge to the authorizing body to put the plaque on the boat and they are required by law to have them in Europe. Also the individual manufacturers of components are probably the ones who must apply for a CE rating. Why don't one of you who have a boat in this debate call Hunter and request an explanation.
I can't guarantee it but from what I can see, the equipment is the same whether the boat is built here or in England. I suspect that all of the equipment, hatches, ports, etc. meet minimum CE requirements. I do not think that Hunter would be so stupid to advertise the boat as having certain CE capabilities and not being able to meet them. IMO, that would be fraud and I suspect if that were the case, owners could insist on the boat brought up to specs or return the boat. There may be an upcharge to the authorizing body to put the plaque on the boat and they are required by law to have them in Europe. Also the individual manufacturers of components are probably the ones who must apply for a CE rating. Why don't one of you who have a boat in this debate call Hunter and request an explanation.
My 450 also has the pages stating certification-
I have a P450 purchased in May of '98. Pages 34 and 35 of the factory supplied owners manual state that the boat is certified to CE Category "A"- "Ocean". I have received an answer from Hunter which tells me I do NOT have a CE Certification on my boat. In checking with the IMCI and going throught the directives to which CE rating categories are determined I discover that they list all of the hardware manufacturers and the SPECIFIC MODEL of their hardware that is required for the certification. As an example, to be certified Category "A", the hatches from Lewmar need to be their model "Ocean". I do not believe that is the model that I have on my boat. I also believe that all thru-hulls need to be the "lockable" type. Again, I do not have these on my boat. There are also things like soolid tubing LP gas lines, stove shielding requirements, that are not on my boat. The only real way to see if your boat is CE certified is that the hull number will contain a "CE" in the number. No "CE", no certification. I also know what pages 34 and 35 of my manual state. Confused, yes. Perturbed, more so.
I have a P450 purchased in May of '98. Pages 34 and 35 of the factory supplied owners manual state that the boat is certified to CE Category "A"- "Ocean". I have received an answer from Hunter which tells me I do NOT have a CE Certification on my boat. In checking with the IMCI and going throught the directives to which CE rating categories are determined I discover that they list all of the hardware manufacturers and the SPECIFIC MODEL of their hardware that is required for the certification. As an example, to be certified Category "A", the hatches from Lewmar need to be their model "Ocean". I do not believe that is the model that I have on my boat. I also believe that all thru-hulls need to be the "lockable" type. Again, I do not have these on my boat. There are also things like soolid tubing LP gas lines, stove shielding requirements, that are not on my boat. The only real way to see if your boat is CE certified is that the hull number will contain a "CE" in the number. No "CE", no certification. I also know what pages 34 and 35 of my manual state. Confused, yes. Perturbed, more so.
More of an explanation
I have HULL #18, when the boat was commissioned I came across pages 34 and 35 which state that my 450 was CE Certified. I specifically asked were was the plaque, I got "it was coming". My dealer never presented me with that plaque. I forgot about it. Now the funny thing is that Hull #17 or 19 got CE Certified after my boat was commissioned. He did it as a private indivigual. It was the first CE'd 450A. Then why was there a certificate that specifically denotes the 450? A couple of months ago I contacted Greg of Hunter. The subject was if my boat had a Galvonic Isolator. Later boats contain them. I got a message back that stated that they didn't start using them until after CE certitification was obtained for their european boats was obtained???? This started me thinking, you mean Greg that my boat is not CE Certified??? NO BOB YOUR BOAT IS NOT CE CERTIFIED. You should have asked us to have it certified!!!! I contacted CE, NO BOB YOUR BOAT IS NOT CE CERTIFIED. Question, is CE Certification and "Category A" rating connect. YES, YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER. Response from CE- "The Hunter 450 was certified by IMCI in 1999. As far as we can tell, no renewal for 2000 was made." Hunter now says that they build U.S. boats to NMMA STANDARDS. So now, do you guys understand why I am asking the question if you think your boat is CE Certified? The manual says the boat is Category A, there is no NMMA classification for category A. Hey Hunter are you there? I believe that several other models have the same mis-.............
I have HULL #18, when the boat was commissioned I came across pages 34 and 35 which state that my 450 was CE Certified. I specifically asked were was the plaque, I got "it was coming". My dealer never presented me with that plaque. I forgot about it. Now the funny thing is that Hull #17 or 19 got CE Certified after my boat was commissioned. He did it as a private indivigual. It was the first CE'd 450A. Then why was there a certificate that specifically denotes the 450? A couple of months ago I contacted Greg of Hunter. The subject was if my boat had a Galvonic Isolator. Later boats contain them. I got a message back that stated that they didn't start using them until after CE certitification was obtained for their european boats was obtained???? This started me thinking, you mean Greg that my boat is not CE Certified??? NO BOB YOUR BOAT IS NOT CE CERTIFIED. You should have asked us to have it certified!!!! I contacted CE, NO BOB YOUR BOAT IS NOT CE CERTIFIED. Question, is CE Certification and "Category A" rating connect. YES, YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER. Response from CE- "The Hunter 450 was certified by IMCI in 1999. As far as we can tell, no renewal for 2000 was made." Hunter now says that they build U.S. boats to NMMA STANDARDS. So now, do you guys understand why I am asking the question if you think your boat is CE Certified? The manual says the boat is Category A, there is no NMMA classification for category A. Hey Hunter are you there? I believe that several other models have the same mis-.............
Must be some kind of mistake-
I checked my boat and there is no CE anywhere in the serial number! It starts with HUN and then nothing but numbers. I can't find the plate that Bob talks about either! Does this mean my boat isn't certified like it says in my manual? This has got to be some sort of a mistake at the factory. Maybe the plate is located somewhere hard to find. They wouldn't be allowed to put the certification certificate in the manual and have sales people telling everyone the boat is certified if it wasn't true. I am going to call Hunter to find out.
I checked my boat and there is no CE anywhere in the serial number! It starts with HUN and then nothing but numbers. I can't find the plate that Bob talks about either! Does this mean my boat isn't certified like it says in my manual? This has got to be some sort of a mistake at the factory. Maybe the plate is located somewhere hard to find. They wouldn't be allowed to put the certification certificate in the manual and have sales people telling everyone the boat is certified if it wasn't true. I am going to call Hunter to find out.
Their Website
I was under the impression that my 2001 380 was CE certified as category A. My manual also has that page, but I like everyone else was unable to locate the plate. I just checked their website and they are definitely advertising the boat as Category A. http://www.huntermarine.com/products/h380/h380specs.htm I, like the rest of you, would really like to know what's going on here. Have we all been misled? If so, what do we do about it? Marty
I was under the impression that my 2001 380 was CE certified as category A. My manual also has that page, but I like everyone else was unable to locate the plate. I just checked their website and they are definitely advertising the boat as Category A. http://www.huntermarine.com/products/h380/h380specs.htm I, like the rest of you, would really like to know what's going on here. Have we all been misled? If so, what do we do about it? Marty
Get ready for the "mumbo jumbo"
I actually made a decision to purchase the boat based upon the resprentation of the dealer, and the supporting documentation shown in the factory supplied "Owner's Manual." I am sure that we will all be directed to read the disclaimer at the bottom of the specs. Fact is, "standard equipment", whatever that is, is not the same for that required to meet CE Category "A" requirements. I am sick and tired of having to listen to "caveat emptor" speeches. What's right is right! I know what I was told, and I know what I read! I feel had!
I actually made a decision to purchase the boat based upon the resprentation of the dealer, and the supporting documentation shown in the factory supplied "Owner's Manual." I am sure that we will all be directed to read the disclaimer at the bottom of the specs. Fact is, "standard equipment", whatever that is, is not the same for that required to meet CE Category "A" requirements. I am sick and tired of having to listen to "caveat emptor" speeches. What's right is right! I know what I was told, and I know what I read! I feel had!
Ec View
My boat, bought in England, has the CE plate inside the companionway. It shows the classification, B, the no. of people and / or the weight of luggage. It would only be fitted to boats sold within the EC. Quite a useful guide when buying and a very effective barrier to trade from outside fortress Europe! Everything from a paperclip to an automobile must be CE certified!!!!!!!
My boat, bought in England, has the CE plate inside the companionway. It shows the classification, B, the no. of people and / or the weight of luggage. It would only be fitted to boats sold within the EC. Quite a useful guide when buying and a very effective barrier to trade from outside fortress Europe! Everything from a paperclip to an automobile must be CE certified!!!!!!!
Island Packet
Island Packet builds all boats to CE certifeied category and installs the CE placard in ALL boats whether they are delivered domestically or to the EU. The philosophy is that all of their boats are built and equipped to CE and domestically delivered boat may be taken to the EU. A domestic boat is delivered with a 110 volt AC input. EU boats are built with 220 volts. A domestic boat going to the EU needs only have the electrical AC changed to 220.
Island Packet builds all boats to CE certifeied category and installs the CE placard in ALL boats whether they are delivered domestically or to the EU. The philosophy is that all of their boats are built and equipped to CE and domestically delivered boat may be taken to the EU. A domestic boat is delivered with a 110 volt AC input. EU boats are built with 220 volts. A domestic boat going to the EU needs only have the electrical AC changed to 220.
S ...
CE is some kind of European mumbo-jumbo, no offense meant to any body from over there, put together as a pratical market barrier and perhaps or perhaps not, has a relationship to the capabilities of a particular product. George, I gotta say that after following these threads for a couple of months that you f'd up when you selected your boat and are still trying to get someone else, Hunter in this case, to make it up to you. I don't know anyone who has not made modifications to his boat to make it easier to sail, service, operate, safer, etc.. I made the mistake with our 42 by not really checking out the well for the anchor rode but am in the process of modifying it, without Hunter. Get on with it.
CE is some kind of European mumbo-jumbo, no offense meant to any body from over there, put together as a pratical market barrier and perhaps or perhaps not, has a relationship to the capabilities of a particular product. George, I gotta say that after following these threads for a couple of months that you f'd up when you selected your boat and are still trying to get someone else, Hunter in this case, to make it up to you. I don't know anyone who has not made modifications to his boat to make it easier to sail, service, operate, safer, etc.. I made the mistake with our 42 by not really checking out the well for the anchor rode but am in the process of modifying it, without Hunter. Get on with it.
Agree with Bill's analysis; yet.......
I don't think Hunter Marine's silence in this matter is very smart. Whatever the cat dragged into this chatterbox still requires some careful cleaning up and is not likely to walk away by itself. An old Dutch saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The Hunter Marine Corporation George describes is not the company I have known for a decade. A bit of diplomacy would probably have gone a long way on both sides; certainly further than petulant, selfdestructive behavior. Keep the negative advertising up and a lot of owners (including George!) may well see the resale value of their vessels go down by a not insignificant amount. This is surely one of the more destructive tantrums I have seen in a while. Where, oh where is the Hunter rep with the lollypops??? Flying Dutchman
I don't think Hunter Marine's silence in this matter is very smart. Whatever the cat dragged into this chatterbox still requires some careful cleaning up and is not likely to walk away by itself. An old Dutch saying goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The Hunter Marine Corporation George describes is not the company I have known for a decade. A bit of diplomacy would probably have gone a long way on both sides; certainly further than petulant, selfdestructive behavior. Keep the negative advertising up and a lot of owners (including George!) may well see the resale value of their vessels go down by a not insignificant amount. This is surely one of the more destructive tantrums I have seen in a while. Where, oh where is the Hunter rep with the lollypops??? Flying Dutchman
Perspective
>Henk, if Bill's analysis is indeed correct, and CE certification serves as a market barrier, then what impact do suppose the lack of certification has on resale value IF originally marketed as CE certified? >Bill, this post was originated by another owner. I gather your evaluation of the purchase process applies to all owners participating in the referenced discussions? >Henk, if you have reviewed the forum in a manner sufficient to justify your conclusions, you are aware that is has been the content of responses, not silence, which has elevated George's concern.
>Henk, if Bill's analysis is indeed correct, and CE certification serves as a market barrier, then what impact do suppose the lack of certification has on resale value IF originally marketed as CE certified? >Bill, this post was originated by another owner. I gather your evaluation of the purchase process applies to all owners participating in the referenced discussions? >Henk, if you have reviewed the forum in a manner sufficient to justify your conclusions, you are aware that is has been the content of responses, not silence, which has elevated George's concern.
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