Pearson to toy with
Catalina? now that's funny! lots of ole wives tales being slung around here!
Catalina? now that's funny! lots of ole wives tales being slung around here!
- Status
Porsche/Sailing
I paid $7900.00 for my 944 Turbo and needed to replace the Clutch and some other stuff so add another $3000.00 for it. So I have $11000.00 in the car. So for $11k I have one real cool car. Looking though the paper the other day I could have bought a Honda for the same money with the same milage. How many of those do you see on the way to the mall?? We have 100k on the car and that comes out to about 6500 miles a year. Not bad for a 16 year old car. My 28.5 is an 86 and with the sail inventory I have would not sell it for less than $24000.00. I have a full set of UK Tape Drive 155,108,main and a crusing kite. Plus some older Dacron and a practice spinnaker from a T Ten. Not to mention allot of new upgrades folding prop running rigging and so on. I can't think of a better way to spend a weekend than to blast up to the boat in the Porsche. With just the wife and I. When you add the price I have in the car and the boat togather it is still cheaper than some of the average car's on the road today. What's the average price of a new Minivan or an SUV $30,000.00 + . Face it Boats and Sport Car's are toys, that are wants not needs. Togather my wife and I have 4 cars and 3 boats. We each have a fun car for the summer she thinks her 92 Honda Prelude is the coolest car on the planet. I have a 1995 work truck and we park the fun cars and drive the Work truck and our 1994 122k miles Jeep Cheroke in the winter. So togather all our cars is still cheaper than say a new Ford Explorer. The other boats are Sunfish we sail during the week close to home. Also the 928 or Shark was on the top of the list till I found this looks like new 951. (FYI The Porsche world calls the 944 Turbo a 951 it was the number Porsche gave it duing producton)The used 944 market is full of cars in the $8k range and under. I just needed to wait 15 years to have a car I have always wanted at such a cheap price. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
I paid $7900.00 for my 944 Turbo and needed to replace the Clutch and some other stuff so add another $3000.00 for it. So I have $11000.00 in the car. So for $11k I have one real cool car. Looking though the paper the other day I could have bought a Honda for the same money with the same milage. How many of those do you see on the way to the mall?? We have 100k on the car and that comes out to about 6500 miles a year. Not bad for a 16 year old car. My 28.5 is an 86 and with the sail inventory I have would not sell it for less than $24000.00. I have a full set of UK Tape Drive 155,108,main and a crusing kite. Plus some older Dacron and a practice spinnaker from a T Ten. Not to mention allot of new upgrades folding prop running rigging and so on. I can't think of a better way to spend a weekend than to blast up to the boat in the Porsche. With just the wife and I. When you add the price I have in the car and the boat togather it is still cheaper than some of the average car's on the road today. What's the average price of a new Minivan or an SUV $30,000.00 + . Face it Boats and Sport Car's are toys, that are wants not needs. Togather my wife and I have 4 cars and 3 boats. We each have a fun car for the summer she thinks her 92 Honda Prelude is the coolest car on the planet. I have a 1995 work truck and we park the fun cars and drive the Work truck and our 1994 122k miles Jeep Cheroke in the winter. So togather all our cars is still cheaper than say a new Ford Explorer. The other boats are Sunfish we sail during the week close to home. Also the 928 or Shark was on the top of the list till I found this looks like new 951. (FYI The Porsche world calls the 944 Turbo a 951 it was the number Porsche gave it duing producton)The used 944 market is full of cars in the $8k range and under. I just needed to wait 15 years to have a car I have always wanted at such a cheap price. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
still LOL @ Cliff
cant help but laugh buddy but, you sold me! I have to disaggree with one statement you made although; "face it boats and sports cars are toys, that are wants not needs" in so far as boats go, my boat is not a want it is a NEED!! I gotta have a sailboat!! and for the record, in addition to my Explorer which is my "work truck" I have a 71 VW Bus I tool around the beach in and my better half has a 53 MG, aint as fast as your Porsche but, it bet it turns just as many heads. and as the boat is docked in our back yard we usually just walk, unless we are packing for the weekend and we take the push cart down to dock.
cant help but laugh buddy but, you sold me! I have to disaggree with one statement you made although; "face it boats and sports cars are toys, that are wants not needs" in so far as boats go, my boat is not a want it is a NEED!! I gotta have a sailboat!! and for the record, in addition to my Explorer which is my "work truck" I have a 71 VW Bus I tool around the beach in and my better half has a 53 MG, aint as fast as your Porsche but, it bet it turns just as many heads. and as the boat is docked in our back yard we usually just walk, unless we are packing for the weekend and we take the push cart down to dock.
The Numbers
I use the Numbers as a guide to a boats overall performance. After all most of us sail on weekends or days off. The difference between some PHRF numbers can be a huge factor in buying a boat. Not from a racing stand point either. It could mean out running a storm or being able to sail 5 or 10 miles farther on a weekend trip in the same time frame as a slower boat. I had a friend who bought a Oday 272. It was a nice boat but from a performance point of view going to the same place as us 25 miles away the time difference between us getting ther and him getting ther was huge. After a while sailng with comperable set up boats and good sails After a few hours of sailing we had a hard time even seeing him. He was so far behind us. We had the 25.5 with shoal draft for trailering. PHRF Numbers are based from boats racing. Also when sailing JAM or Jib and Main the Number changes to correct this. On our 28.5 we change from a 174 in Spinnaker to a 184 in JAM and we race in a JAM Class. Overall the numbers should not be a deciding factor but they should be a big part of it. When sailing with a group don't you tend to keep and eye on trim so your not the last one ther or is that just me? Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
I use the Numbers as a guide to a boats overall performance. After all most of us sail on weekends or days off. The difference between some PHRF numbers can be a huge factor in buying a boat. Not from a racing stand point either. It could mean out running a storm or being able to sail 5 or 10 miles farther on a weekend trip in the same time frame as a slower boat. I had a friend who bought a Oday 272. It was a nice boat but from a performance point of view going to the same place as us 25 miles away the time difference between us getting ther and him getting ther was huge. After a while sailng with comperable set up boats and good sails After a few hours of sailing we had a hard time even seeing him. He was so far behind us. We had the 25.5 with shoal draft for trailering. PHRF Numbers are based from boats racing. Also when sailing JAM or Jib and Main the Number changes to correct this. On our 28.5 we change from a 174 in Spinnaker to a 184 in JAM and we race in a JAM Class. Overall the numbers should not be a deciding factor but they should be a big part of it. When sailing with a group don't you tend to keep and eye on trim so your not the last one ther or is that just me? Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
Hey Ken
Red Dog is in the Shop being Repaired as we type. She will be back ready for action for the Mill's Race. But we will be faster than last year, we have been working on some stuff looking for speed. For those that don't know we had a Port/Starboard collsion during a race. We were on Starboard. Did close to $10k in damge. Cliff Red Dog
Red Dog is in the Shop being Repaired as we type. She will be back ready for action for the Mill's Race. But we will be faster than last year, we have been working on some stuff looking for speed. For those that don't know we had a Port/Starboard collsion during a race. We were on Starboard. Did close to $10k in damge. Cliff Red Dog
Well Dan
Too bad you are not local so I could show you my stern ;-) I don't know which Catalina you sail but I consistently beat(actually smoke) Catlinas as big as 30 ft. Tim
Too bad you are not local so I could show you my stern ;-) I don't know which Catalina you sail but I consistently beat(actually smoke) Catlinas as big as 30 ft. Tim
well Tim
I sail a C30 tall rig w/wing keel, my friend next door has a Pearson 28 but, I dont hold that against him. we are still friends! and for all his bragging he has yet to "smoke me"! come on down anytime, I aint much on racing but you usually can catch the smoke coming off my stern from the meat Im burning while sipping a Dewars. Ill be sailed many a mile while your still thawing out up thar!
I sail a C30 tall rig w/wing keel, my friend next door has a Pearson 28 but, I dont hold that against him. we are still friends! and for all his bragging he has yet to "smoke me"! come on down anytime, I aint much on racing but you usually can catch the smoke coming off my stern from the meat Im burning while sipping a Dewars. Ill be sailed many a mile while your still thawing out up thar!
Chris, you'd do well to check
the Practical Sailor Book(s) "Practical Boat Buying." It has write-ups on both boats and references that they came in different keel configs, so you want to make sure you are comparing similar set-ups. These are not boats you'd trailer-sail for an afternoon jaunt. Make sure you are comfortable with the mast raising/lowering procedure, and talk to people who have them. Check the owner reports on Sailnet.com Different folks have different criteria - for one family, sleeping comfort is everything, for another it's galley layout, for a third it's cockpit size. So it is best if you have some idea of what you are looking for in the first place - what are your priorities?
the Practical Sailor Book(s) "Practical Boat Buying." It has write-ups on both boats and references that they came in different keel configs, so you want to make sure you are comparing similar set-ups. These are not boats you'd trailer-sail for an afternoon jaunt. Make sure you are comfortable with the mast raising/lowering procedure, and talk to people who have them. Check the owner reports on Sailnet.com Different folks have different criteria - for one family, sleeping comfort is everything, for another it's galley layout, for a third it's cockpit size. So it is best if you have some idea of what you are looking for in the first place - what are your priorities?
Cliff, my wife bought that 944 of her's while I
was taking the boat to the virgins. I've learned a few things about it. Porsche redesigned it that year (1986) so that their dealers had to do most of the repair work. I'm a hotrodder so that just pisses me off. The 944 is also the car that nearly put Porsche OUT OF BUSINESS. That's why they are so cheap. The engineering is outrageously poor, like that rubber clutch you just replaced or the BALL bearings instead of roller bearings holding the rear axles. (not used on American cars since 1959) If you are one of their customers who I see standing at the service desk with a checkbook and not a clue, then enjoy. You are their man. Let's talk sailing. *5
was taking the boat to the virgins. I've learned a few things about it. Porsche redesigned it that year (1986) so that their dealers had to do most of the repair work. I'm a hotrodder so that just pisses me off. The 944 is also the car that nearly put Porsche OUT OF BUSINESS. That's why they are so cheap. The engineering is outrageously poor, like that rubber clutch you just replaced or the BALL bearings instead of roller bearings holding the rear axles. (not used on American cars since 1959) If you are one of their customers who I see standing at the service desk with a checkbook and not a clue, then enjoy. You are their man. Let's talk sailing. *5
Don’t be a Slave to PHRF
PHRF numbers are expressed as the number of seconds per mile. So if the Hunter rates a 201 and Catalina a 216 (San Francisco PHRF), then the Hunter gives the Cat 15 seconds per mile. Or in Cliff’s vernacular, it is 15 seconds per mile faster. So theoretically, after 25 NM, the Hunter would be six minutes ahead or somewhere less than a half NM out in front. That is if both boats are sailed “to their PHRF numbers”. Real world that doesn’t happen very often. Fifteen seconds a mile isn’t going to make much difference in trying to out run weather. The major design criteria for Catalinas/Hunters/Odays in this size is the ability to launch and retrieve from a trailer. That gives them all the roughly same beam, hull shape, displacement and sail plan. Pure physics. The result is they all have the same comparable performance (give or take 15 seconds). Pick the one you like the best. If you still insist on using PHRF as a decision criteria, it would steer you towards a sport boat like a J24 (150) or Melges (90). There you'll get a real jump in performance, sort of like what you get when you drive a Motorsport BMW.
PHRF numbers are expressed as the number of seconds per mile. So if the Hunter rates a 201 and Catalina a 216 (San Francisco PHRF), then the Hunter gives the Cat 15 seconds per mile. Or in Cliff’s vernacular, it is 15 seconds per mile faster. So theoretically, after 25 NM, the Hunter would be six minutes ahead or somewhere less than a half NM out in front. That is if both boats are sailed “to their PHRF numbers”. Real world that doesn’t happen very often. Fifteen seconds a mile isn’t going to make much difference in trying to out run weather. The major design criteria for Catalinas/Hunters/Odays in this size is the ability to launch and retrieve from a trailer. That gives them all the roughly same beam, hull shape, displacement and sail plan. Pure physics. The result is they all have the same comparable performance (give or take 15 seconds). Pick the one you like the best. If you still insist on using PHRF as a decision criteria, it would steer you towards a sport boat like a J24 (150) or Melges (90). There you'll get a real jump in performance, sort of like what you get when you drive a Motorsport BMW.
I agree with George
But if all that really matters is a few seconds on the race course, then get a PHRF "beater". If getting to your destination faster than everyone else, just get a much faster boat for as little money as possible. Come on guys a few seconds per mile won't mean much unless you are racing, if it really mattered you'd get a real fast but squirely 40+ foot old IOR racer for little money. The market is flooded with them & they are cheap. Doesn't mean that they are fun to sail or cruise on, but they will beat the ratings given to them.(Remember, none of these boats we are talking about are much slower/faster than the other) I've said it before, but I'll say it again. "This is what it comes down to. When you sit on the boat, and when you sit in the saloon,etc., the boat you buy should bring a smile to your face. And when you walk away from a nice weekend on the boat you end up turning back to look at the boat and you smile because you love the way it looks and makes you feel." At least that how my boat makes me feel
But if all that really matters is a few seconds on the race course, then get a PHRF "beater". If getting to your destination faster than everyone else, just get a much faster boat for as little money as possible. Come on guys a few seconds per mile won't mean much unless you are racing, if it really mattered you'd get a real fast but squirely 40+ foot old IOR racer for little money. The market is flooded with them & they are cheap. Doesn't mean that they are fun to sail or cruise on, but they will beat the ratings given to them.(Remember, none of these boats we are talking about are much slower/faster than the other) I've said it before, but I'll say it again. "This is what it comes down to. When you sit on the boat, and when you sit in the saloon,etc., the boat you buy should bring a smile to your face. And when you walk away from a nice weekend on the boat you end up turning back to look at the boat and you smile because you love the way it looks and makes you feel." At least that how my boat makes me feel
Are you more confused Chris??
We have covered it all from Cool cars to fast boats. I agree with George that all 3 boats and ther PHRF numbers are close enough to not be much of a factor. So it all comes down to what Tom says. If one boat feel better than another then take it and run. I just wanted to throw the 25.5 into the mix it does get over looked some of the time. All will trailer the same with the Hunter being the biggest of them all in over all size but all very close to being at the same weight. Here in Ohio we are on the hard for the winter both the Porsche and the boat are put away for the winter and for some of us in the Snow Belt this is our only outlet for sailing. I also need to correct my thought's on the need vs want comment. Sailing for me is a need not a want. My wife tells me that I need to go to the boat on the weekends that it replenishes my soul and it sure is fun going ther in the Porsche. As for owning the Porsche it is a blast to drive, mine is a 88 so most of the production bugs have been worked out remember it is a 16 year old car. My kids are almost gone I have one still at home out of 3 and he is a junior in HS and thinks I am weird. To him I am an old guy driving a car that he drools over and ask's all the time if he can drive it. (Not bloody likely) I am 41 self employed ( I am just a plumber) have a cool fast car and to some a yacht at the lake to me just a Hunter 28.5 and a wife who loves me dearly but thinks I am a goof. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
We have covered it all from Cool cars to fast boats. I agree with George that all 3 boats and ther PHRF numbers are close enough to not be much of a factor. So it all comes down to what Tom says. If one boat feel better than another then take it and run. I just wanted to throw the 25.5 into the mix it does get over looked some of the time. All will trailer the same with the Hunter being the biggest of them all in over all size but all very close to being at the same weight. Here in Ohio we are on the hard for the winter both the Porsche and the boat are put away for the winter and for some of us in the Snow Belt this is our only outlet for sailing. I also need to correct my thought's on the need vs want comment. Sailing for me is a need not a want. My wife tells me that I need to go to the boat on the weekends that it replenishes my soul and it sure is fun going ther in the Porsche. As for owning the Porsche it is a blast to drive, mine is a 88 so most of the production bugs have been worked out remember it is a 16 year old car. My kids are almost gone I have one still at home out of 3 and he is a junior in HS and thinks I am weird. To him I am an old guy driving a car that he drools over and ask's all the time if he can drive it. (Not bloody likely) I am 41 self employed ( I am just a plumber) have a cool fast car and to some a yacht at the lake to me just a Hunter 28.5 and a wife who loves me dearly but thinks I am a goof. Cliff H 28.5 Red Dog
Porsche stuff
Hey, As a big time Porsche fan I can't let those inaccuracies go by. The 944 was redesigned in 1986 (actually mid way through 1985) but it had nothing to do with dealer work, it was to make the car nicer, faster, etc. Regarding the engineering, I must disagree with you. Rather than go into a long laundry list of items, I will leave it at this: How many other cars from the 80's do you still see being driven? How many Nissan 240 / 260 / 280 / 300 Z cars are still on the road? How many Toyota Supras? I see many 944's being driven on the street to the race track, then on the track (club events, not racing) then driven home in comfort. Let me know if anyone wants more Porsche info. Sailing related info - I have a 1981 Catalina 22 and I am interested in buying a Catalina 30. Barry Barry Lenoble lenoble@optonline.net http://members.rennlist.com/drive944/
Hey, As a big time Porsche fan I can't let those inaccuracies go by. The 944 was redesigned in 1986 (actually mid way through 1985) but it had nothing to do with dealer work, it was to make the car nicer, faster, etc. Regarding the engineering, I must disagree with you. Rather than go into a long laundry list of items, I will leave it at this: How many other cars from the 80's do you still see being driven? How many Nissan 240 / 260 / 280 / 300 Z cars are still on the road? How many Toyota Supras? I see many 944's being driven on the street to the race track, then on the track (club events, not racing) then driven home in comfort. Let me know if anyone wants more Porsche info. Sailing related info - I have a 1981 Catalina 22 and I am interested in buying a Catalina 30. Barry Barry Lenoble lenoble@optonline.net http://members.rennlist.com/drive944/
Umm Barry I still drive a 1978 280-Z
and if you go to california you see alot more of them. (To me the original "z"'s were the classics...not to be confused with the "zx"'s) And back then it wasn't "Nissan" .....it was "Datsun" ;-). Please remember the 240's, 260' and 280's were made in the 70's (http://www.zhome.com/)....not the 80's ...thats when they came out with the zx's The reason you might not see alot around here is not the engineering of the car, but rather the rust effect in the NE
and if you go to california you see alot more of them. (To me the original "z"'s were the classics...not to be confused with the "zx"'s) And back then it wasn't "Nissan" .....it was "Datsun" ;-). Please remember the 240's, 260' and 280's were made in the 70's (http://www.zhome.com/)....not the 80's ...thats when they came out with the zx's The reason you might not see alot around here is not the engineering of the car, but rather the rust effect in the NE
Sorry, but in VA everything is taxed!
Even computers, if used in a business! :^( There's personal property tax on boats, cars, trucks, RV's, ATV's, and anything else of significant value if used in a business. BTW, that tax rate can be as high as 4.5%. Fortunately for us, our boat is berthed in MD (no tax), and our older cars are not considered of much value, so we pay only a modest amount of tax on them. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Even computers, if used in a business! :^( There's personal property tax on boats, cars, trucks, RV's, ATV's, and anything else of significant value if used in a business. BTW, that tax rate can be as high as 4.5%. Fortunately for us, our boat is berthed in MD (no tax), and our older cars are not considered of much value, so we pay only a modest amount of tax on them. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Old things
I have always sought out the older "classic" models when buying toys. I have built, restored and raced many Triumphs. They are no longer in business either. I still drive my 1991 Audi 90Q becasue I love the styling and performance. That was the last year for that generation of 90. Previously I drove a '90 Coupe Quattro(only about 1500 imported). I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Pearson went out of business because they built an inferior product. Actually just the opposite. They built boats too well. I look at my Pearson as a classic much like my Triumphs and Audis. It is 27 years old and it looks as good today as it did new. I would not buy a Catalina any more then I would buy a Ford or Chevy. No offense to anyone with Catalinas, Fords or Chevys. They obviously make a good product based on sales. I would just rather have something unique. P.S. Remember that Pearson pioneered FRP construction starting with Dinghys in the 50s. I feel Catalinas, O,days and others would not be as affordable today if it were not for companys like Pearson. Tim
I have always sought out the older "classic" models when buying toys. I have built, restored and raced many Triumphs. They are no longer in business either. I still drive my 1991 Audi 90Q becasue I love the styling and performance. That was the last year for that generation of 90. Previously I drove a '90 Coupe Quattro(only about 1500 imported). I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Pearson went out of business because they built an inferior product. Actually just the opposite. They built boats too well. I look at my Pearson as a classic much like my Triumphs and Audis. It is 27 years old and it looks as good today as it did new. I would not buy a Catalina any more then I would buy a Ford or Chevy. No offense to anyone with Catalinas, Fords or Chevys. They obviously make a good product based on sales. I would just rather have something unique. P.S. Remember that Pearson pioneered FRP construction starting with Dinghys in the 50s. I feel Catalinas, O,days and others would not be as affordable today if it were not for companys like Pearson. Tim
Tim, if you follow
that logic with Pearson and FRP contruction, I guess you would have never seen a Triumph or Audi without Henry Ford. I would never say that Pearson is not a good boat but, take great exception to the idea that it is either faster or better than a Catalina. BTW, if you look around you probally have to admit if you are honest that there are more 60s Mustangs still on the road than any other car of the era. and if I remember my high school days correctly, the ole Cobra's could run with anything that came across the Atlantic or the Pacific! I am told by many Pearson owners how they can show me their stearn, a good friend I sail with all the time has a Pearson 28. he has never "smoked me" as so many Pearson owners brag they can. and it aint cause he is not a good sailor either, he has been at for 20 years. Im happy with my Ford and my Catalina.
that logic with Pearson and FRP contruction, I guess you would have never seen a Triumph or Audi without Henry Ford. I would never say that Pearson is not a good boat but, take great exception to the idea that it is either faster or better than a Catalina. BTW, if you look around you probally have to admit if you are honest that there are more 60s Mustangs still on the road than any other car of the era. and if I remember my high school days correctly, the ole Cobra's could run with anything that came across the Atlantic or the Pacific! I am told by many Pearson owners how they can show me their stearn, a good friend I sail with all the time has a Pearson 28. he has never "smoked me" as so many Pearson owners brag they can. and it aint cause he is not a good sailor either, he has been at for 20 years. Im happy with my Ford and my Catalina.
Your last sentence
Sums it up. Whatever one is happy with and a little friendly racing between sailors is good fun. Many sailors don't race(organized) but every time they are next to another boat they are. Good point about Ford. I like the Mustangs and Cobras although it was really only a Ford by name and Engine. Carrol Shelby used a British design and basically conned his way into that car. Great story. he told Ford he had a race car that needed an engine and told the chasis company he had an engine that needed a body while not having either! One note though; the Cobra was fast but did not handle as well as the Ferraris. The GT40 fixed that and was very competitve against the Ferrari. Tim
Sums it up. Whatever one is happy with and a little friendly racing between sailors is good fun. Many sailors don't race(organized) but every time they are next to another boat they are. Good point about Ford. I like the Mustangs and Cobras although it was really only a Ford by name and Engine. Carrol Shelby used a British design and basically conned his way into that car. Great story. he told Ford he had a race car that needed an engine and told the chasis company he had an engine that needed a body while not having either! One note though; the Cobra was fast but did not handle as well as the Ferraris. The GT40 fixed that and was very competitve against the Ferrari. Tim
thanks Tim
as the ole fellow says "whatever blows your skirt up"! and I dont race "organized" but your right, anytime two sailboat meet up on the water you got a race! BTW, Ive always wanted to visit your area up there! but, in the summer of course!
as the ole fellow says "whatever blows your skirt up"! and I dont race "organized" but your right, anytime two sailboat meet up on the water you got a race! BTW, Ive always wanted to visit your area up there! but, in the summer of course!
Summer in Maine
Yeah, you folks from Florida only need to wear 1 parka up here in the summer IF you ever make it up here I would be happy to take for a ride around the bay. Tim
Yeah, you folks from Florida only need to wear 1 parka up here in the summer
IF you ever make it up here I would be happy to take for a ride around the bay. Tim- Status