Catalina Status

[jaysweet]

I love this idea, but do you think it’s possible to make the economics work?

The true answer is: I don't really know. But we're creeping towards a world (or "sailing world") where most of the domestic boat manufacturers have gone out of business, and we're awash in old fiberglass boats that are sitting up on jackstands in crowded boatyards, probably never to see the water again. I went down to Deltaville VA the other weekend to see a boat (which was in the water in a slip), but oh man: I've never seen more boats on the hard in my life than I saw in this boatyard!!! I mean, I'm in a marina in the mouth of the Patapsco that has more than its share of boats on dry land (at least half of which will probably never sail again), but I've never seen the kind of numbers I saw down in VA. My instincts are that there are plenty of nice 35-40 foot boats that could be had for yard storage fees down there. Why would you want to lay up a boat from scratch if you could start with one of these (former) beauties, do some sanding, some gelcoat, some systems work, and have a nearly new boat? I mean, I'm not paying for it, but it does seem like an opportunity.

 

[NYSail]

Regarding the collapse of the new boat market: I know certain manufacturers have done quite a bit of refurbishing of their own boats. But maybe someone could run a factory that does nothing but refit older sailboats? They could do 2 slightly different types of work: 1) refit boats brought to them by current owners, and 2) buy boats for very cheap, refit them to a high standard, and sell them for nearly new prices. Presumably #1 could be done more efficiently in a factory and #2 would avoid one of the most difficult parts of new boat manufacture, which is laying up the hulls and decks. Maybe #2 would also help to fill in the down times when #1 gets slow, so they can keep their workers employed on a steady basis.

Also: add Caliber to my initial list of (more recently) failed US sailboat makers.

The fiberglass hull will last, the issue becomes the core. If the boats were solid fiberglass or impervious to water, refurbishing old boats would be a no brainer. A wet core equals a big investment.
But I like the idea!!

 

[jaysweet]

The fiberglass hull will last, the issue becomes the core. If the boats were solid fiberglass or impervious to water, refurbishing old boats would be a no brainer. A wet core equals a big investment.
But I like the idea!!

Fair enough: wet core replacement would be a big deal, so that's a good point. I suppose there are enough near derelict boats out there that you could pick and choose which to purchase for rehab?

 

[dlochner]

The point (or the hope) would be that the work could be done much more cheaply in a factory-like setting, where the labor is kept 100% employed all the time, compared to the DIY situation it's getting compared to, where someone takes 7 years to refit a boat in their spare time.

A huge difference between building a new boat and rehabbing one, is the work flow and sequence. When systems are installed in a new build there are no obstructions. The boat is built from the bilge up. Wiring runs, hose runs, and access to various parts of the boat are relatively unrestricted, work can be completed easily and quickly. In a major refit of an old boat, labor costs go up because as all DIY boat owners know, nothing is easily accessible. So something that might take an hour on a new build, takes 3 hours on refit.

One important part of a major refit is getting the hull looking good. Sanding, fairing, and painting a hull takes a lot of man hours. On a new build it goes much quicker, there is only minor repairs and polishing to get the hull fresh out of the mold looking good.

 

[pgandw]

The reality is that the economics don't work. Many of these boats have leaks that have caused the deck cores to rot. It's actually cheaper in most cases to make a new deck molding than to rip it apart, recore, and refinish. Raw materials are more for brand new, but labor is considerably more for recore. I don't know about the upper end, but at the trailerable end, if a recore/refinish is needed, the price to do it professionally brings the price of the recored boat up to the price of a new. As a customer, which would you choose?

Stuart buys sound hulls, and only half the deck is cored in a Mariner. Say Stuart buys a Mariner hull for $1K. It doesn't need recoring, but just the refurbishing (standing & running rigging, decent sails, cushions plus polishing, cleaning, and painting) is going to push the selling price above $12-15K, depending on what the buyer wants in the way of refurbishing. With the average condition used Mariner going for $3K (nice condition might get $5K), there are only a limited number of buyers willing to pay that much of a premium for refurbishing. And there are even fewer buyers for a new Mariner - $50K for a "sail away" package.

On the other hand, Rhodes 19s (use the same hull as Mariner, but keel instead of CB, cuddy instead of cabin, more complex rig) are actively raced. Therefore there are new Rhodes 19s sold every year, which keeps Stuart open. Another example: Flying Scots also sell new hulls every year because of demand from racers.

Fred W

 

[Blitz]

FYI - another example was The Cape Dory 36 being built with the same molds as the Robinhood 36 in Maine in the 90's. Also, after Superstorm Sandy I know of at least one that was repaired and updated at their facility in Georgetown, Maine. It is a beautiful boat but realize that it is for a select few who could afford it.

 

[jssailem]

While there are mechanical issues, like wet decks and mold, I think the real challenge is cultural. If you look at houses as an example, the market is busy with remodeling and upgrades. You tube and reality tv stars buying old homes, rebuilding them then selling them for gobs of money to customers who want a place to live.

The idea of a boat is too different than a place to call home. Butler made money because people with homes wanted the dream of getting away. He gave them their dream in an affordable package. A New to them boat. With new smell and the promise of fulfillment.

While there are dreamers who see an old boat and imagine themselves splashing through the water, the good old boat is a compromise with monetary limitations. Added to the problem are the limitations of scale. When rebuilding an old boat many of the challenges require one off solutions. This contributes to time consumption and labor expense.

Rebuilding my boat has been a labor of love. There is no way I’ll ever recover the time and financial expense I have consumed. Yet I’ve been more the compensated by the memories.

I’ve been reminded that memories don’t pay the bills. And to that I say, phooey! With a smile.

 

[rgranger]

This isn't an entirely new idea. About 15 years ago, I read From a Bare Hull, a book that was actually published back in 1975.

Amazon.com

The book tells the story of a man who purchased nothing more than a laid-up hull and built the entire boat from scratch. It was a major source of inspiration when I restored my Coronado 23. I gutted the boat down to the stringers and then rebuilt her from the ground up.

 

[Rjm st.petersburg]

Here are recent pictures of Catalina Yachts taken about a month ago. As you can see there is still severe damage to some of the buildings from the hurricanes. There were a couple of hulls in progress with no one working on them. The owner did say they were sold and they were working on them. There were only 3 or 4 people on site, didn't look like much was getting worked on. They did have a new 8KW generator sitting in the lobby.

 

[jaysweet]

I just looked on the website for the Annapolis Sailboat Show https://www.annapolisboatshows.com/sailboat-show/boat-list/ and noticed that there will be 5 Catalina models on display, 3 of them listing "Catalina Yachts" as the company. I suppose the other 2 might be left-over boats in a dealer's inventory, but to have 3 listed by the company is encouraging. I'll admit that it would take some guts (and an iron clad escrow account agreement) to put down real money on a new build with a company in this kind of a state of flux. Still: a good sign!

We are planning to attend, probably, subject to weather and a few other things.

 

[jaysweet]

Very interesting article here, with some stats on sailboat production: State of the Marine Industry

"90% of all sailboats in the world are built by Beneteau, Jeanneau, and Hanse. Every other builder is fighting for the last 10%. This is simple. These three builders build on an assembly line, where every other builder still builds boats one at a time. 2026 is the first year no sailboats over 25 feet were being built in America."

 

[shemandr]

A lot to unpack there.
90% production sounds high to me. Maybe keel boats over 30’. Or boats for the American market. But what about South Africa, down under and Asia. Not to mention the catamarans.
No doubt our higher environmental and safety standards make it more difficult for American builders. And labor costs. I agree there probably isn’t much sailboat building left for tariffs to protect. What about sport boats and dingy’s?
As for the reasons Americans are moving towards powerboats I think that’s largely the author’s speculation. I’m sorry he didn’t include the shortage of dockage, the high cost of insurance, high cost of maintenance, and the difficulties of cruising on a slow boat.i.e. it takes time. And when you get there the moorings are taken or anchorage filled. It surprised me that so many pontoon boats were displayed at Newport. But it shouldn’t because they fulfill the way many people want to use the waterways.
As for the cost of powerboats, especially the larger faster center consuls I agree with the author. At the Stuart Boat Show a couple of years ago I was hard pressed to find a center consuls of 25’ for under 250K. I think it’s a bubble. The Covid buyers soon grew tired of boating and the used market has softened.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[jaysweet]

A lot to unpack there.
90% production sounds high to me.

Yeah: I'd agree that the "State of the Marine Industry" article might have quite a bit of speculation.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

The list is longer than that and it has been going on for longer. I'm thinking in particular of my beloved Ranger line designed mostly by Gary Mull. The molds went through a succession of builders with mergers and reselling. The end result, in my opinion, is that the product got so far away from the creative passion of the designers and original builder that as soon as economic conditions got bumpy, they bailed.
I think that what happened with the sailboat industry in the 80's and 90's should constitute a course in business schools. Sometimes there is more to be learned from what went South than from what worked.

There was a big recession at the time that many good sailboat manufacturers bit the dust. Double digit interest rates were brutal too. And the price of petroleum sky rocketed, which brought the price of fiberglass up too. And then the government put on a luxury tax which included sailboats, which didn't help sales at all. Islander, Pearson, C&C to add to the list above were victims as well. Eventually C&C was purchased (I think by Brunswick) and carried on later.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Catalina is now being reserrected and back in production under C&T Composites LLC. as of July and August. In addition True North Yachts led by CEO Pat Turner restarted manufacturing in Largo FL. all according to Scuttlebutt Sailing News. It's a smaller organization now, but they plan to expand, but are currently building boats. As production increases, so will the size of their team. They are building the boats that were left on the line now with additional production and new designs in the future.

 

[rgranger]

They are building the boats that were left on the line now with additional production and new designs in the future.