Catalina 42 around the world ??

[Rodney]

Owners?

Ed & Eric, do you have the boat name or better yet, the owner's names for these 2 C42s you mention had problems in rough weather? I am sure insurance claims must have been filed, etc. I would like to get in touch with the owners if possible. In fact, I'll bet the factory would be interested as well.I can certainly understand if you wish to keep that info confidential though. E-mail me direct via the owner's directory on catalinaowners.com

 

[Gerry Douglas]

The Factory wants the Facts

The postings on this list were forwarded to me by a Catalina owner who questioned the validity of some items posted on this site.  As the builder and designer of the Catalina 42 I also question some of the information posted . We have good communication with many of our customers and I think we would have heard of these kinds of problems.  Please provide hull number(s), owners namers and contact information and I will follow through .  The Catalina 42 has been sailed a lot of bluewater miles and the incidents you report are not typical. The 42 is CE certified Catagory A, And built to plans approved by The American Bureau of Shipping for Offshore Racing Yachts. This is not a lightly built boat .I invite you to compare the standing rigging, hardware and laminates to other similar production boats.  I look forward to your response. Cordially, Gerry Douglas

 

[RichH]

So Gerry ..... why no easily reached handholds, ...

no sea berths, scarce deep and ample storage in the C42?Is 45 gallons of water really enough for a 1000+ mi voyage? If I add the optional fuel tanks where do I put the other needed stores?Sure these questions are rhetorical and perhaps a bit facetious because most folks who buy an 'ocean' boat never take it there .... and you must follow your 'market' etc. to stay in business.Is a 'pullman' berth appropriate for an 'ocean' voyage? How does one rig lee cloths in one? ... and the remaining technical question is (and was unanswerable when I was looking at a C42) what ARE the designed Factors of Safety of critical design elements (@ 30° heel)? ... comments? Even that the C42 is FAST, when I looked at one it didnt come up to my personal tastes for long distance voyaging (storage, sleeping while at sea, lots of handholds, tankage, redundancy, etc. etc.). I do however complement you and your company on the massive upgrades in craftsmanship and quality in the past few years. I do hope the present cost of marine fuel helps you and the other sailboat builders. regardsRichH

 

[OldCat]

Water Capacity of a C42

RichH: Water Capacity of a C42 is 111 gallons, not 45. Please see the link to the Catalina website below.

 

[Phil Herring]

RichH, a little respect, please

Rich, I'm not sure what your credentials are as a sailor but I'm pretty sure you haven't designed some of the most popular sailboats of the past 20 years. Gerry has, and I believe that entitles him to considerably more respect than you have shown him here. Gerry made no claims about any of the topics you mention so I'm not quite sur where your questions are coming from. To me, the answers are self-evident. If you look around the sailboat business today you'll see that exactly _none_ of the top four builders offer boats with the kind of offshore features you're asking about. There's a reason for that: hardly anyone cares to buy those features. If you want the boat you describe, go buy it. If that doesn't suit you, go design it. But don't disrespect Gerry and Catalina Yachts for because they didn't build it.

 

[Rick D]

Bluewater Sailing?

I guess I'm a bit confused by what constitutes 'blue water sailing'. Is it the two to four week sail from the west coast to HI? Is it the 1000 miles to Baja, MX from San Diego? Is it the Azores from Bermuda? Is it a six-month cruise? A year? Maybe two?I'm not taking a shot at some design attributes vs. another, it's just that we throw these terms around and get in weighty debates without a common definition.Since the far greater percent of the average cruise will be at one port or another, a boat's liveability is important, isn't it? Certainly tankage and stowage are important, but different people have differing needs for them and they can be modified.I guess my point is that I have met a lot of people cruising on a lot of different boats, and very few are here on these boards since they are out there doing it. And, many on boats we would consider deficient in some way or another. So, just what IS the definition of bluewater by which we evaluate a boat's criteria? Rick D.

 

[Dave]

Competition

Catalina Yachts is a business. Their goal is to make money, as much as possible, serving their market. This market is full of competitors. To make money they must offer the best value to their customers for the market they serve in order to get market share. Boat features will be driven by what sells, customer demand. Phil is right on with his comments. Anyone that wants features not on the C42 is either looking at the wrong boat, or should order custom modifications to the vessel either by Catalina if available as options or by a third party provider of modification services.Many very capable "blue water boats" have been smashed up by the angry seas. This month's edition of Soundings has four stories of rescues this past May in the gulf stream in a storm with 40 foot breaking seas. Some pretty rugged craft had to be abandoned or sunk and lots of personal injury including 1 death. Some guy sailed across the Pacific in a 10 foot boat (maybe shorter), I'm sure we could all find fault with the handholds not to our personal taste. If you read Endurance you will find a captain taking a small open boat hundreds of miles in frigid conditions from Antartica in order to rescue his whole crew trapped on the ice. No one would consider this craft a "blue water boat." A lot has to do with the capability of the skipper and the equipment on board (sea anchor, series drogue, storm sails, etc.)Dave

 

[RichH]

Wasnt meant as a putdown ......

The original poster was expressing the viability of choice for a circumnavigation. Such sailing can be deemed to have specific needs of personal safety as well as redundant strengths. That a boat by design may operate well and safely by 'mechanical considerations' is only part the question and doesnt make it an automatic high choice candidate for circumnavigation or long distance passages when the important 'human' needs of storage capacity, tankage, and being able to traverse the cabin with less personal risk in a heavy seaway (whick I think is VERY important) ... is 'minimized' (even as viewed by personal preference), etc. etc. etc.. I may be old fashioned but for a seaway I think one needs secure handholds conveniently located so that one doesnt have to be in limbo and let go between handholds thus continually increasing personal risk. Even with 'market pressures' for dockside entertaining, cavernous interiors etc., comparatively little stowage (amidships), small side decks, lack of adequate bulwarks, inconvenientl sail controls, bottom shapes that continually 'pound', etc. etc. etc. ... not something Id want to be in for a 3+ year circumnavigation especially when their are 'other' choices .... especially outside of the 'production boat' genre. To me a 'Pullman berth' is simply an unsafe place to be when on the ocean and so relegate even the strongest and most seaworthy of boats ... to 'coastal' status - my preference based on MY experiences. My personal credentials include quite a bit of dynamic structural engineering (but not composites) so after working with critical saftey of components for a long time one would expect to have a 'mental shopping list' of 'preferences'. Im not putting down the Catalina design per se ... just expressing/implying that there are perhaps other and perhaps better choices for a **circumnavigation**. Lets just say that the 'temper' of this thread has become 'heated' and impassioned based on 'brand loyalty' by others. If you, Phil, translate or transfer that into disrespect, then there is no more to say. As regards the constant BeneHuntaLina bashers, it WOULD be of benefit for Gerry or other Catalina (or Hunter or Bene) personnel to make themselves occasionally available on such an open forum .... to discuss and perhaps dispel such 'perceived misconceptions' about thier designs. Would probably benefit all. 

 

[Rodney]

Handholds

As far as handholds in the cabin, there is a sturdy handhold on each side of the companion way, one at the face of the galley sink "island" on the port side, one directly opposite on the bulkhead between the doors to the aft cabin

 

[Bill]

I think we got this covered

We pretty much have this topic covered and the questions resolved.

 

[Don s/v Tellico]

This is a recurring topic around here...

with all the brands. Kudos to Gerry Douglas for posting here AND letting us know who he is. The original poster here seemed to be asking an expert about the layup of the hull, indicating they have experience and knowledge enough to ask an expert's opinion. Unfortuately the thread "rounded up" to the typical blue water question. Seems to me that anyone planning to do serious "blue water" cruising, as in crossing the seas, etc., etc., or whatever it means, should be doing a lot of homework and hopefully have a lot more knowledge than most of the folks here. And if they don't then how serious can they really be?There must be literally thousands of decisions one has to make before embarking on such a trip. I think pullman berths and handholds are something a serious sailor should know about, evaluate and be prepared to address. Most books and articles I've read cover them in detail. (Ironically, the original poster here liked the layout...the builders must be getting it right.)Not to discount the exchanges here, but let's face it: some have done it, some haven't, and most of us just dream of it. Unfortunately, those that apparently do have some knowledge and experience choose to preach or criticize, rather than share it in a meaningful way.

 

[Bil sv Makai]

Laughs on the previous response

I got a good laugh with the previous response. I absoutley agree with the comments. I thouroghly believe that everyone should reserach and learn as much as they can before buying the boat(we owned several boats before settling on the one) to crusie and get as much boat handling experince before setting out. BUT, since we have been out here for the last 1 1/2 years we found that to be the opposite of what people do!A large portion of the cruisers we have met (that did't quit in the Bahamas) had little or no experince in sailing before buying and setting off cruising. The learning curve was steep and will always be steep even for the experinced, but expericne helps one work through the next set of problems (and there always are more).I am a firm beliver in reading, a going to classes, bumming rides, challenging oneself local and small increments and sailing before setting out. Not just sailing on sunny day. We used to go out on the Bay when the winds hit 30 plus just to get exposure and practice for heavier weather. Sail with and talk to cruisers who have been where you are going, it will help prepare. It prepares you for what you still have to learn that can only be gained by the cruising experince.The best advice I can give is be adaptable, get educated, and have fun. It is worth it and we are thankfull for every day we are out here.sorry about stepping on the soap box

 

[Will Green]

Your response are appriciated

As the person who posted the origional question I wish to thank everybody for their input.Both Eric with his delivery experiences and Rodney and others who are owners, also Gerry Douglas as builder.The whole displacement thing with boats is slowly changing, ironically much slower than the technoligy that drives it. The Lightest layed up boat I have sailed on was an open class 60 "Panic Major" that I helped to deliver to New Zealand, to my knowledge this boat has been around twice, first time as "Nouvelle Observer" in the 91 BOC.The layup on this boat was such that a scew driver had been dropped at one time from the lower speaders and the blade had penetrated the cabin roof and was visible in the cabin with the handle on deck.The lesson seems to be not how heavy the boat is but how it is put together.For this reason if Gerry or somebody else could direct me to any information on lay up schedules and deck hull bonding on the 42 Mk 1s I would appreciate it.Everybody do well and lets not forget which piece of the boat is the weakest link.Thanks Will..

 

[Eric]

Catalina 42

Kevin, Bill, Will, Franklin, et al,Yeah, we have pretty much hashed this out. I guess what it comes down to is percentages. If you are going to do a circumnavigation, you want the most stand up, bullet proof hull you can buy. There are major differences based on $.I like the Catalina boats. Sorry if I was misunderstood. They are great for everything up to very long or rough passeges. I guess I am a bit concerned that that people argue the fact. People are out there who could misinterpret the facts, and get into real trouble.Take care all. This was enlightening. Eric

 

[Kailani]

It's truly interesting to learn how...

folks are eager to express opinions supported by volumes of rhetoric but offer few facts. It's interesting to note that while authors such as Ed and Eric list plenty on symptoms, they offer little in the way of circumstances, one of the reasons I frequent this forum. For example; how old were these vessels? In what condition was the rigging? Hull maintenance history? Auxiliary condition and performance? Simple details such as ‘were the various doors closed in the cabin while underway?’ Did the crew even know the integrity benefits keeping companionways closed during rough passage? (This is a recommendation 'printed' in some of the Island Packet brochures).I own a Corvette. Its skin is made from fiberglass. 80,000 miles of factory recommended maintenance has kept the vehicle squeak free. A colleague with fewer miles, and even less respect for items such as curbs and potholes, complains about his endless rattles.In Alameda there are two Islander 36's, side by side. One, a 1980 listing to starboard, handrails missing, and jib shredded. The second, a year older... is in Bristol condition. It has just returned from Hawaii.Today's vessels are designed using sophisticated CAD (computer aided design) resources capable of creating fiberglass-based geometries, often superior in strength to corrosion susceptible woods and metals. These same design tools create automobiles which are lighter [for fuel economy], yet stronger and, as a consequence, safer. It doesn’t disprove heaver is less better, it proves lighter can be as strong or stronger.I applaud Gerry Douglas for his input and desire to defend his product. After all, if the Catalina was as incapable as some might assert, he would not be a member of the top 5 three sailboat manufacturers in the world. My only criticism for Gerry is that he had to have the post 'forwarded'.

 

[Bil sv Makai]

The right boat

Alot of peole argue about the various qualities and suitablity of boats. Some I agree with others I don't. Since we have been cruising in the Caribe for the last 1 1/2 years we have met people from all over the world in every kind of boat you can imagine, from Hunter/Legends from england, Benetaues from Austrailia, to Catalinas from the US to home made 25 foot boats from Spain. My favorite is the 75 foot custom sloop by a single handler from Austrialia that was a couple million bucks.The point is that many boats people say they would not travel in around the world do go and do it safely. We have seen some boats come in that I am amazed that they haven't sunk.It is important to understand your needs and when you chose the boat and what you and the boat will be capable. Each person makes his choice but it should not be solely based on cost. Feeling and being secure and comfortable in your boat is part of the good experince and a safe trip.

 

[Kailani]

A follow up with blue water caveats

The sailing experience I'm seeking has little to do with 'blue water' capability. Whatever I sail, it's maintained to a state of condition which will allow it to perform anywhere within it's design scope. I firmly believe, most production sailing vessels, properly maintained, are blue water worthy.I sail a 1995 Hunter Legend 35.5. During my research on the seaworthyness of this craft, I discovered in 1990, a 35.5 sailed from Seattle to Hawaii capturing a first place finish in the double-handed Pacific Cup. A year later 11 35.5's were sailed from New York to Bermuda to race in the Omega Gold Cup. These boats competed in conditions aggravated by Hurricane Grace. Following this event, 10 of these vessels competed in the Burmuda Gold Cup.Finally, in the 1998 Trans-Atlantic (Dayton to Bermuda) a 35.5 finished third in his class, sailed by a four member family.Although not a 35.5 endorsement, a friend in SF just completed a navigation around cape horn in his 15 year old Beneteau. The video footage indicates the boat took a lot more than the crew. Heavier shrouds and a new storm jib were the only preparations needed to his well maintained production platform.I would bet every skipper referenced above would consider their respective experiences 'blue water'. Maybe they prefered a vessel with a bit more feel and spray in their face.

 

[Franklin]

Not so fast....

"I firmly believe, most production sailing vessels, properly maintained, are blue water worthy."I don't fully agree with this. Hunter only gives 33' and above a CE Rating of A (blue water). Only the 31' of the smaller boats doesn't have a D rating. We are talking D...and in almost failing. So I wouldn't even think about taking anything smaller more then a days sail out. Now I don't know about the other production boats but my guess is that they are about the same.

 

[Kailani]

Not sure which Hunter Marine URL

You're using. All non-trailerable Hunter models, except the 25', specify a 'B' rating, or better, by the IMCI folks. This classification (which requires an IMCI inspector) reads: "Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4m (13') may be experienced." Most blue water sailors who pay attention to seasonal trends rarely encounter these conditions.But this is really not the point. Vessel selection, weather consideration and crew capability are just a few of the considerations that should be factored into a voyage, regardless of distance or destination. Prior to acquiring my sailboat, I read a number of books, most based on logs, written by folks who ventured to sea in sub 30' vessels. While none were Hunters or Catalinas, several were quite aged. Log of the Mahina and Kawabunga come to mind. Since these folks survived to publish books, it appears they may have compromised comfort, not safety, to accomplish their blue water goals.It would be a shame to abandon a sailing dream due to a boat size, brand or cost perception.

 

[william]

Only unsinkable sailboat

This is the only sailboat rated unsinkable. This boat will comfortably sail anywhere on the globe, around cape horn, exceeding 8 knots. I am very interested in buying one someday.