Catalina 36 Main Halyard Recommendation?

[jviss]

Time to replace the main halyard. I've had StaSet-X, 7/16" (I think) these past 13 years. Not crazy about it. It drags through the fairleads and masthead sheave a bit. Would prefer something slimmer, smoother, more flexible, more "slippery." but with comparable low-stretch characteristics. Any recommendations?

NER says 7/16 for boats 35 to 40. Catalina uses 3/8, I think.

Thanks,

jv

 

[Stu Jackson]

jv, I've not heard much good about Stay Set X, and you're not the first. I made the mistake of using regular Stay Set on our main halyard. Stretches too much. I've heard good things about Samson - good hand low stretch. No need to over or under size it, check your manual for the proper size. Ours are 3/8", work well.

 

[jviss]

Thanks Stu. Which Samson rope, XLS?

 

[Brian S]

I just had an email yesterday from Vela Sailing Supply, talking about halyards. For cruising boats, they recommend New England VPC, which is a Vectran/polyester blended core with a polyester cover, or Sampson MLX Dyneema/Innegra core with a polyester cover. Of course, they don't say what Innegra is made of on the www.innegra.com web site, but I would suspect it is an ultra high modulus polyethylene similar to Dyneema. Both of these lines should have the line spliced to the shackle.

For greater strength and less weight, you might consider a Vectran cored line like Yale Crystalyne or New England V-100, but I have heard the Vectran doesn't like to be flexed all that much. Perhaps it's fine over a mast sheave. It would certainly be the preference of a racer, especially with the cover stripped for less weight aloft, but only stripped for a racer who wants to regularly inspect and replace about every 3 years.

I used VPC for my control lines, even though it was described as not particularly flexible. From what I've seen of it, it would be fine for halyards. Next time I need main and jib halyards, I will probably save much money over the Yale Crystalyne I bought, and I'll just use VPC.

The Vela article said that Dyneema is good for spin halyards, due to it's ability to take dynamic loads.

Brian

 

[Brian S]

Oh, and also the Vela article confirms what many have already said, that double braid polyester is no good for halyards because it's too stretchy.

Brian

 

[jviss]

Thanks, Brian. I just spoke with Rigging Only in Fairhaven, MA, and they recommend VPC, too, in 11mm for this application, which is just about 7/16". How does it feel in the hand, say, compared to plain double braid stuff?

 

[Brian S]

Jviss, I think it feels about the same as Sta-Set, considering the cover is pretty much the same as Sta-Set. It's got a bit of that shiny Sta-Set sheen to it. In the small diameter stuff I used for outhaul and reefing line, it feels about as stiff as fresh Sta-Set, maybe slightly stiffer.

Brian

 

[Gunni]

VPC is superior to Sta-Set and Sta-SetX for halyards, and the price is very close. It isn't the braid, it is the material, vectran is much lower stretch. Just changed mine out.

Rope: spec. stretch:
sta-set 4%
sta-setX 2.4%
VPC 1.65

 

[Stu Jackson]

Gunni, you're right, Stay Set is much too stretchy.

jv, I don't know specifically which Samson is best for halyards, but I would venture to guess that either the WM website or Samson's would be able to tell you. IIRC, WM has a pretty good graphic for halyard selection. Not suggesting you buy from them, just a good resource.

3/8" is a reasonable "hand" for the halyard, (6/16", right?) so 7/16" would give a better grip, but I personally don't think it's necessary. We alternate between raising it from the mast and from the cockpit.

Good luck.

 

[jviss]

VPC is superior to Sta-Set and Sta-SetX for halyards, and the price is very close. It isn't the braid, it is the material, vectran is much lower stretch. Just changed mine out.

Rope: spec. stretch:
sta-set 4%
sta-setX 2.4%
VPC 1.65

Those numbers don't jive with what I have; where'd you find them?. I can't find the stretch figures on NER's site, but it's in the West Marine catalog. What I just got was:

Stretch (all at 20% breaking strength):

Sta-Set: 2.8%
Sta-Set X: 1.95%
VPC: 1.4%

Bear in mind, though, that it's not so simple to compare, since for the same diameter line the stronger ones are operating at a lower percentage of their breaking strength, and will therefore stretch less in length; and, VPC is not available in the same diameters as Sta-Set and Sta-Set X.

Breaking strength:

3/8" (.375") Sta-Set 5,100 lb.
3/8" Sta-Set X 5,300 lb.
10 mm (.394") VPC 6,500 lb.
7/16" (.4375") Sta-Set 7,000 lb.
7/16" Sta-Set X 7,700 lb.
11mm (.433") VPC 8,500 lb.

So, the stronger line will stretch probably much less, and, according to Jeff at Rigging Only, will not stiffen up as quickly under the same load.

For example, at 1,000 lb. load over a 70' section, and assuming linear interpolation of stretch as a function of load applies in proximity of the specified rate, we get the following actual stretch:

3/8" (.375") Sta-Set 23.1"
3/8" Sta-Set X 15.5"
10 mm (.394") VPC 9.0
7/16" (.4375") Sta-Set 16.8
7/16" Sta-Set X 10.6
11mm (.433") VPC 6.9"

Some interesting observations ensue, for example, 7/16" Sta-Set for nearly the same stretch s a lot stronger than 3/8" Sta-Set X, and it handles much more nicely (but, it costs more).

 

[Joe]

If you build a "tapered" halyard your problem will be solved. A hi tech, single braid, dyneema core with a softer, hand friendly cover. It is the core that gives a double braided line its strength rating.... the cover improves cleat protection and handling.... so the premise is get a super strong, smaller diameter core for the job and cover it with the more comfortable cover from a less expensive double braid line. There is 1/8" size difference between core and cover.

For instance, you could use a core of Samson Amsteel(which has a protective UV coating)....1/4" is super strong and cost effective(around $1.60/ft), then cover the lower half that is handled and cleated with the cover from 3/8" Samson LS. You use the unwanted core of the double braid to messenger the amsteel replacement into the cover.

There are two splices.... the "taper" splice where the cover is buried into the core....

and the "luggage tag", a large eye splice that allows you to bend the shackle on and off easily.

Splicing instructions are in the Samson website.

If you go HERE you will have a better picture of my suggestion. A phone call will put you in touch with an expert who can help you sort out the details. Of course, they will also build the halyard if you choose.

The advantage of the tapered halyard is that you can use a smaller diameter line... with the super high strength of the smaller diameter dyneema core running more freely through the sheaves......lighter weight up top.... price is comparable, or even lower, to a larger diameter, high grade double braid such as VPC.... and the satisfaction of installing a custom, high end application.

You can also achieve the same objective by stripping the unwanted portion of the cover from a high performance double braid that has a dyneema core, such as Samson Warpspeed.... but then you're essentially paying for the larger size cover.... when you only want the strength of the core.

Just something to consider.

1/4" AmSteel tensile strength is rated at 8600#..... whereas 7/16 VPC is rated at 7500.

 

[Steve Dion]

JV: I think if you contact Dave or Phil at SBO they can give you some guidance on line. I have to agree that the Sta-set X is not a great piece of cordage. We had problem on our H'31 with it absorbing water and not wanting to go through the sheaves.

 

[Gunni]

Those numbers don't jive with what I have; where'd you find them?.

Practical Sailor (via subscription login)

That is the manufacturer's stated stretch.

tested strength (15 ft):
sta-set - 2"
sta-setX-1.3"
VPC -0.9"

 

[jviss]

Practical Sailor (via subscription login)

That is the manufacturer's stated stretch.

tested strength (15 ft):
sta-set - 2"
sta-setX-1.3"
VPC -0.9"

I still don't follow. Are you saying that PS tested 15' lengths to determine the stretch? And then what do you mean "that is the manufacturer's stated stretch?" Surely you shouldn't need a PC subscription to learn NER's specs, but then, I can't find it online.

Further, if I interpret your post correctly, you're saying that the 15' pieces stretched 2", 1.3", and 0.9" - but at what load? And even so, this doesn't add up the numbers you gave previously. For example, I get 1.11% for 2"/15', and 0.72% and 0.5% for these figures, not 4%, 2.4%, and 1.65% in your first post.

What am I missing here?

 

[jviss]

If you build a "tapered" halyard....

Thanks. I hadn't considered that, and I certainly won't be doing that this season, I just need a quick-to-acquire conventional halyard. I'll splice an eye in the end and attach a keypin shackle, like this, that doesn't need the luggage-tag feature:

By the way, the shackle in the pic you show is over $200. The Ronstan halyard shackle I use is about $25.

 

[Stu Jackson]

NER website, seems to have the same "cartoon" that's included in the WM catalog.

http://www.neropes.com/PleasureMarine.aspx

I didn't dig any deeper.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks. I hadn't considered that, and I certainly won't be doing that this season, I just need a quick-to-acquire conventional halyard. I'll splice an eye in the end and attach a keypin shackle, like this, that doesn't need the luggage-tag feature:

IMHO, Wichard makes a much nicer halyard shackle. I've used those captive D rings on our smaller boats (C22 & C25), but I bought this one and it works great with a simple bowline. It's the one with the blue composite on it, couldn't find it on the WM website, though. Maybe they've discontinued it and replaced it with the MX series.

 

[jviss]

IMHO, Wichard makes a much nicer halyard shackle. I've used those captive D rings on our smaller boats (C22 & C25), but I bought this one and it works great with a simple bowline. It's the one with the blue composite on it, couldn't find it on the WM website, though. Maybe they've discontinued it and replaced it with the MX series.

I've used the Ronstans for 13 years on my C36 with no issues. I spliced an eye, though. A bowline knot lowers your breaking strength by about 1/3.

I think a bowline in 7/16" Sta-Set X would be so big I wouldn't be able to raise the main all the way!

That Wichard is nice, but it's not a key-pin shackle, the pin threads in, right? Also it's about $55, I think. I like the speed and ease of a key-pin - I can often one-hand it.

 

[Maine Sail]

I also have a 36 footer but use 3/8" halyards not 7/16". With the newer high tech lines you can drop a size and still have less stretch and virtually no creep. I currently use 100% Yale products, the Yale brothers are members of our club and great guys. i keep it local when I can plus they build tremendous line. I could not be happier with my Vizzion, ULS Yacht Braid and Crystaline.. One thing about the high tech lines is that rain does not affect creep / stretch.

 

[rardiH36]

I think a bowline in 7/16" Sta-Set X would be so big I wouldn't be able to raise the main all the way!

Only recently, by looking closely at the cover illustration of my new Profurl C-350 installation manual, did I become aware of the "Halyard" knot. And I used it for the exact same reason you cite. Unlike a bowline, the halyard knot can cinch up tight against the shackle. Anybody actually use the thing? Here's a link to tying instructions:

http://www.jeanneau-owners2.com/hintsandtips/id137.htm