Catalina 27 radio installation

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Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
"Compass and a hand on the tiller may have prevented the tragedy..."

that's specious and just silly. though I have searched and not found anything official and definitive as to the cause of this tragedy, it would seem falling asleep or miscalculating one's position and course, is prone to disaster no matter the use of technology or lack thereof.

I'd count my blessings to be on that race and have a working GPS and chart plotter. now, a recalcitrant autopilot or having someone not well-versed in programming it ... not so much. in the fog, with islands nearby and a soporific helmsman, I'd take my chances with my GPS .. thank you very much. fog or not ....

"Sometimes the simplest tool is the best..."

no profundity here .. as clearly, sometimes the simplest tool is not the best.

daniel
 
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Faris

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Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
balderdash - I respectfully disagree with your premise.

You can't really claim to "respectfully" disagree when you've already described my position as "balderdash". It's kind of like saying, "No offense, but you are an idiot."

But, I'm not here to argue. Just keep it civil. We're only talking about navigation - it's not religion or politics.

You are essentially making the argument that good sailors use their tools well, regardless of what they are. I couldn't agree more, but then you extend this by asserting, if I understand you correctly that, essentially, better tools make for a better sailor.

It's kind of like saying that a person is a better carpenter if he/she has a better hammer. The tools do not make the sailor. Skills, knowledge, and judgement make the sailor. And, though it's not my purpose, I could argue that compass navigation enforces more skills, knowledge, and judgement than GPS navigation. If you have these traits, even a compass failure won't be a real problem.

But, I reject that the GPS is really substantially more capable when landmarks are visible. All of the capabilities you listed for the GPS, I can readily perform using a compass, chart, and situational awareness. This takes continuous practice, the benefits of which are eroded by habitual reliance on a GPS.

You can't argue against this point - that navigational skills fade with lack of exercise. My point, if you read carefully, is essentially that if you want to have sharp navigation skills using a chart/compass, you need to exercise them, but that it is not really necessary to exercise GPS skills. Those skills will be there when you need them.

That is, if you navigate by compass, the GPS will still be there when you need it. If you depend on the GPS, your compass skills won't be what they should be.
I believe that really good sailors know how to use all the tools available to them, and they are not mutually exclusive.

I completely agree. I, in fact, occasionally use my GPS to double-check my accuracy, check my speed, etc. I just don't rely on it. And, this is my point - that relying on a piece of equipment (whatever it is), one is only as good as one's equipment is reliable.

It is not my assertion that, if a person maintains compass/chart skills, that there is anything wrong with using a GPS. I am only saying that if you don't maintain these skills, you will be a weaker sailor (overall) than one who does. This seems pretty uncontroversial.

Now, as long as the GPS remains working and/or you never venture into a region where it is really much of an issue either way, you will get along just fine (as I mentioned). I am talking specifically about the skills of the sailor - skills you strengthen by using a compass, but which atrophy when relying on a GPS.

So, to simplify, I am saying that it is better to have compass skills than not. That a sailor with them is stronger than a sailor without them. And, that you only get them and keep them through habitual use.
we all get the chart/compass argument and many see it as a badge of honor

I just view it as a basic skill if you travel more than a day or two from familiar waters. Most people don't do this, so, as I mentioned previously, it really doesn't matter for most people.
I [...] gladly embrace the accuracy a GPS chart plotter affords me. it allows me to easily evaluate multiple scenarios, flag possible conflicts, precisely navigate to specific points in local waters or other oceans.

Yup, all of those things are great. It is certainly nice to have them. Can't argue against that. But, do these make YOU a better sailor, or are they just capabilities of your GPS device?

Now, you may claim/argue that you personally have good skills using various means (not just GPS). That may very well be true. But, my assertion is not that YOU or that SOME PEOPLE don't maintain these skills. It is that, in general, reliance on a GPS and not exercising other skills erodes these other skills and therefore diminishes one's capabilities as a sailor.
Essentially, you are outsourcing these capabilities to an electronic device. Granted, the device does them very well, but reliance on it creates a dependency in most human sailors, and that dependency is potentially dangerous if one puts oneself in situations where the inability to get a reasonably accurate fix would be dangerous.
how does that work? dead reckoning makes grand assumptions of where you were and where you now are based on potentially fatal speculative projections and reliance on a point of reference that may not exist.

I'm not sure how you do it, but this doesn't sound like what I learned. I learned to navigate, first on land doing search-and-rescue, then by air as a pilot, and finally by sea. I've learned that, just as with a GPS, it is good to know your confidence factor and to operate within the margin or error.

It is true that it occasionally requires you to make a leap of faith from one known location to the next point where you are confident. But, this is where situational awareness (which only comes through practice) comes into play. If my last known fix was 3 hrs ago, and I have been following a compass heading of 172 at an average speed of 5 kts, if I am navigating by compass alone, I should know off the top of my head where I am more or less. If I am relying on a GPS (notice I said "relying" and not "using") - then probably not.

Accuracy? Well, when all is functioning as it should, there is no doubt that a GPS is more accurate. But, I also think about a sail I had last summer in the San Juans when a thick fog rolled into a channel that got as narrow as 1 nm. The GPS (which would have been very nice to have), could not get a fix. Of course, since I had two GPS devices, it was prudent that my crew continue to attempt to get a GPS fix, but as skipper, I didn't need to scramble to get out a chart and try to guess where I was because I already had good situational awareness. I just monitored my watch and speed and kept a mental picture of the landscape as we sailed a tense 90 minutes in the stuff before it cleared enough to reveal that we were precisely where I thought we'd be. After the fog lifted, the GPS confirmed that we were where we could clearly see we were.
no matter the means, you must always have an awareness of your approximate position, stay ahead of the boat in determining future actions, and anticipate failure with a secondary plan of action.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that relying on a GPS, human nature being what it is, these skills will not be as strong as they are in one who does not rely on GPS.

Hopefully you understand what I am actually asserting now, but I'll use an analogy: By extension, your argument is that, because autopilot is very useful, frees up your time and mind, and flies with great precision, that it makes you a better pilot if you have it.

Of course, it does not. But using it does make you more dependent on it.

There is no doubt that it does all of those nice things, and that it makes flying more pleasurable, etc. But, it doesn't make you a better pilot.

Conversely, flying without an autopilot helps keep your skills sharp. You can always turn it on if you want, but you can't turn on your skills with the flip of a switch.

As another analogy, one should not assume that because one has a book on one's bookshelf, that one has knowledge of its contents. Using a GPS does not give one the skills of the GPS - it only allows one to borrow them at the pleasure of the GPS.

One final thought: I've made the qualifier that the compass is really only as good as GPS when landmarks are clearly visible. But, in fact, when sailing in open water, compass navigation is MUCH more critical. The best use of equipment, in my view, is to use the GPS once or twice a day to verify position and get a "last known position", but to use compass and chart for all else. This is because GPS failure, if you rely on it, can be devastating in this situation. One is much better off continually refining one's skills without it, but using the technology available to test/hone those skills and to get known positions.

Again, to recap:
GPS: Useful
Compass/chart: Useful

GPS: More subject to complete failure, less prone to error
Compass/chart: Less subject to complete failure, more prone to error

GPS: Requires very little skill and does not reenforce good habits.
Compass/chart: Requires more skill and promotes good habits

GPS: Proficiency does not carry with it the requisite skill for compass/chart navigation
Compass/chart: Proficiency carries with it most of the requisite skill for GPS navigation

GPS: Allows precise situational awareness
Compass/chart: Requires good situational awareness

GPS: Does not require the navigator to accurately calculate projected position in the absence of reliable navigational information (this is both a pro and con)
Compass/chart: Requires the navigator to be able to estimate position in the absence of reliable navigational information (again, both a pro and con)

GPS: Superior or at least adequate when navigational failure is not particularly problematic.
Compass/chart: Superior when navigational failure is problematic, since it is less prone to failure.

GPS: Superior when extreme precision is desirable
Compass/chart: Superior when constant awareness of approximate position is desirable (which is most of the time)

GPS: Chart, position, heading, speed, projections, etc. are all in one device that can fail entirely with electrical problems or battery failure
Compass/chart: Chart is in one place, heading is in another, speed is estimated or displayed in another place, fix and projections are done in the brain. Failure of any piece (except the brain) does not cause a complete system breakdown.

GPS: Perfectly fine, and perhaps superior, for casual sailing. Very useful tool for all sailing.
Compass/chart: Indispensable for open water navigation. Very useful for coastal navigation.

GPS: Safety and efficacy are dependent on sailor skills, knowledge, and judgement
Compass/chart: Safety and efficacy are dependent on sailor skills, knowledge, and judgement

GPS: Has its place. Is not a substitute for compass/chart.
Compass/chart: Has its place. Is not a substitute for GPS.

In general: It is much better to have and be skilled in both, but given the choice, I would much rather have a compass & chart and be skilled in compass navigation.
 
Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and we are not that distant in our beliefs. when I say GPS, I am really saying GPS and electronic chart rendering. I see no difference in using a GPS, keeping a running fix, and knowing with the same lack of precision, my position, as I would with a compass and chart. I simply think that the electronic system yields more information which, if used judiciously, can make for a better sailor potentially. not better perhaps, but certainly better informed. I include knowing SOG, COG, XTE, and other data parameters in my statement as part of the GPS side of the argument.

perhaps I don't view using a compass and chart as anything particularly difficult. certainly not at a level where using a GPS or autopilot would endanger my existence. or perhaps, I view the retrieval of data from a modern GPS system as really coming from one heck of a good compass, and use it accordingly.

you might get a chuckle out of this ... I have well over ten thousand hours as a pilot. I've had several engine and landing gear failures, but one of the most memorable failures was when I noticed fluid gushing out of the instrument panel and watched the compass drain itself and die. even old, simple, and established technology can fail it would seem.

it's a tiring argument nonetheless. I understand your position, and I hope you see glimmers of the logic within mine. I have no doubt you'd sail rings around me, and it would be nice to meet up with you and compare notes. no apologies for using my GPS chart plotter though :)
 

Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
"Compass and a hand on the tiller may have prevented the tragedy..."

that's specious and just silly. though I have searched and not found anything official and definitive as to the cause of this tragedy, it would seem falling asleep or miscalculating one's position and course, is prone to disaster no matter the use of technology or lack thereof.
Think about it, if you were charting your course on paper, you would have noticed an island in the way, crank your chartplotter out far enough and it drops off the scale, when you set course by hand, you have to think about it, pushing a couple of buttons is a mindless task. Steering by hand keeps you awake, watching the AP can put you to sleep, an alert watch surely would have seen or heard an island ahead.
I'd count my blessings to be on that race and have a working GPS and chart plotter. now, a recalcitrant autopilot or having someone not well-versed in programming it ... not so much. in the fog, with islands nearby and a soporific helmsman, I'd take my chances with my GPS .. thank you very much. fog or not ....

"Sometimes the simplest tool is the best..."

no profundity here .. as clearly, sometimes the simplest tool is not the best.

daniel
Wasn't going for profound, just practical...

As I said before, try turning off the toys and just go sailing.
 
Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
"As I said before, try turning off the toys and just go sailing."

you've made a poor assumption in thinking that I don't.

I spent two hours on the ferry and another three on a school bus today, with 70 4th and 5th graders enroute to the Seattle Science Center with my schoolteacher wife. I've enjoyed this discussion during the trip .. time flew by quickly and my iPhone typing skills have improved immensely.
 
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Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
"As I said before, try turning off the toys and just go sailing."

you've made a poor assumption in thinking that I don't.

I spent two hours on the ferry and another three on a school bus today, with 70 4th and 5th graders enroute to the Seattle Science Center with my schoolteacher wife. I've enjoyed this discussion during the trip .. time flew by quickly and my iPhone typing skills have improved immensely.
Sorry, all I have to go on is your writing...:D
 

Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
Danni is a common diminutive of Daniel, as is Danny and Dan, check your thesaurus...it's right there next to your computer obviously. :D

But back to the matter at hand, have you swung your compass with the chartplotter both on and off? Is there a difference?
 
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Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
initially, I took note that the chartplotter location seemed to have zero influence on the compass, electronics on or off, and made the decision to install it vertically below the compass. I haven't swung the compass per se, but did take note that it correlates well and ostensibly identical to my flux-gate autopilot compass. as I have said, I don't find that great of utility in the compass generally, real world, and gladly accept its lack of precision. I also have a handheld compass, should I find myself needing to find Long Beach in those gnarly seas :eek:

having said that, tomorrow we are to be out sailing and I am interested to see just how poor my chartplotter display of heading and COG is, compared to the compass. I will check the cardinal points in a limited assessment dependent on conditions, and evaluate which one I would prefer in the context of safety in most all situations.

it's not that I take manufacturers recommendations lightly, but in this instance, I took it upon myself to judge what was published for liability purposes, and the physics behind my installation.

I do know that the chart plotter compass is far more stable, more intuitive, and easier to follow than the conventional compass .. day, night, calm, or gnarly 5' seas within telephone coverage. I've said all I want to here, and I hope it has been of benefit whether one disagrees with me or not. I'll have more to say on my blogsite, and will even attempt to justify why I think radar-reflectors are a waste of money, and why those monies spent on AIS are a far better investment and may save your life.

as to addressing a stranger, and fellow sailor and contributor, by the diminutive instead of their posted name is just rude, and this from someone who won't divulge their own proper name. you are consistent however.

www.doublereef.net
 

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Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
Taking your ball and leaving? Why not post your opinions here, I'll even start calling you Daniel... It's fairly common to abbreviate screen names in replying to posts, a shortcut if you will, sort of like not using caps in your posts.

And you know my name is Tim, lighten up, focus on the sailing.
 
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Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
I enjoy discussions here vis-a-vis Catalina 27 and their owners, and am hopeful my ideas and projects might be of some interest. for other topics of a more general nature I think there are other venues that are more appropriate.

I am interested in using technological advances to increase safety, and though there are issues to be addressed such as this compass argument (and good points were made on both sides I think), as in aviation I believe that ultimately sailors will benefit. yes, there are potentials for error, but I should note that drivers fall asleep at the wheel, and sailors collided with islands long before the advent of GPS and the autopilot. it's sad to think the tragedy we speak of could have been avoided if the technology was used correctly. Radar with proximity alarm comes to mind .. island or cargo ship, and an alert crew of course.

daniel
 

jrowan

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Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
"Most of us never leave sight of land and rarely get so far away from a safe port that we're ever in any real danger of wandering until rations give out and we are forced to eat a loved one in order to survive."

Hey Faris, maybe you should warn your potential guests & family before they get on your boat that they are a future possible meal should you get stranded on a desert island! LOL. You guys need to relax & take a chill pill, or better yet a beer or something. Say where did that gut keep his "spare mast" in his cockpit locker? hah.

As for me, I use GPS & every modern convenience that technology affords, within reason, as did all sailors before us. If I told someone 40 years ago that I could use a small box to tell me anywhere I was within a couple of feet they would think that was Star Trek technology. That said, if the governments go broke & can't afford to keep launching very expensive satellites for GPS tracking then it may not be around for generations to come. A compass always works & never needs batteries or any digital circuit boards which can & will fail. If GPS is all you rely on then you are bound to get caught with your pants down. Being cautious & prudent is the best attitude for all sailors.
When we are away from shore you have to be self sufficient for however long the journey lasts, be it a day or a month. You can't prepare for everything, but to just hope for the best - well, ignorance is not bliss.

ps. My GPS did fail at the beginning of the season, & my wife's i phone made an excellent GPS backup. Go figure.
 
Jan 22, 2008
423
Catalina 30 Mandeville, La.
Hey, don't want to un-hijack the thread, but regarding the radio installation... What kind of antenna do you use on HF and what do you use for RFground. How's the performance? I don't spend enough extended time on my boat to justify an hf radio, but do intend to add it when i move to something larger. I'm just curious what works for other hams. Where do stand on code - no code? Just kidding.
 
Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
hijacking a hijacking? that's just wrong! :)

I found I must use the dreaded smiley-face as too many tend to misinterpret my skewed sense of humour. I'm using an isolated backstay fed with Gto-15 from a MFJ unbalanced to balanced antenna tuner. the Icom IC-7000 has an optional auto-tuner that really works well and will load anything, anywhere. I sold that with my Hallberg-Rassy and can't justify another one on a non-cruising boat without Airmail and saildocs. twisting a few dials to load-up on the limited ham bands is relatively painless.

grounding on a sailboat is one of the most misunderstood subjects for sailors to wrap their heads around. I went through some fairly extensive engineering studies that convinced me that sintered plates, copper-foil and wire counterpoises are not worth the efforts. simply ground to a bronze thru-hull and be done with it. I have an engineering lab and brought much of it on my previous boat, and discovered that the copper matrix in the bottom-paint could produce an effective counterpoise at HF frequencies. my findings were highly controversial but certainly worked out for me. I remember sitting at the nav-station sipping a lovely Bordeaux with my wife and talking to a ham in Italy on 20-meters as if he was sitting in the salon with us. additionally, I seemed to always be able to access Pactor email when others in the anchorage could not. keep your grounds separate. go simple and enjoy.

code forever? nah .. but I do wish there was some form of testing to better delineate those that value and respect the privilege and the morons that do not.

NF7Z
www.doublereef.net
 

Faris

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Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
maybe you should warn your potential guests & family before they get on your boat that they are a future possible meal should you get stranded on a desert island!
That goes without saying. All crew is subject to being eaten ... that's just basic teamwork.
 

Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
That goes without saying. All crew is subject to being eaten ... that's just basic teamwork.
Lucky you, my crew is usually old and tough, any suggestions for condiments and seasonings to keep on board...just in case?

I agree it was a terrible thing to open the public airwaves to the unwashed no code masses, why some of them have had the effrontery to take and pass the Extra class test. :snooty:
 
Mar 6, 2012
35
Catalina 27 Roche Harbor
it's a Lotka-Volterra model, of predator and prey evolutionary dynamics within a constrained system.

how large do you allow the population to grow before it's growth causes the system to fail. if I may, let me say that the present testing process requires little, such that I could make the argument for not testing at all. no testing or overly restrictive testing that causes the system to fail from insufficient contributors.

as an amateur radio operator for almost fifty years, I've seen changes that I believe don't serve the hobby well and are not within the framework of why the spectrum was first allocated. I don't view it as a public spectrum, but something fragile, mutable, and easily deleted by committee. what I listen to on 20-meter SSB sounds much like VHF channel 16 on a weekend. not necessarily chaos, but not far removed.

I don't hold the answer, and understand the hobby has morphed into something far different from the views Hiram Maxim may have held. CW testing seems arcane, but I do think extended testing of a practical nature would be of benefit. I think the same holds for the privilege of boating on the waters.

and the spectrum is most certainly constrained.

back to sailing ...
 
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Timo42

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Mar 26, 2007
1,042
Venture 22 Marina del Rey
Except that the number of hams per capita is declining, not increasing, and if not for the bump from the unwashed no coders, the decline would be steeper still. While I agree that the chaos on certain frequencies can be intimidating, much as the winlids who don't check for a clear frequency before firing up their pactor modems can be annoying, it is a free country, and the airwaves are held in trust for the people, unwashed or not.
 
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