Catalina 27 radio installation

[navigateur]

I just finished my radio installation on my C27 and thought it might be of some interest. it seems to be a reasonable compromise for a sailing ham, though some might bemoan the loss of storage space.

give it a view at www.doublereef.net

sent from my iPhone on the boat

 

[Timo42]

Hey Danni, isn't the chartplotter a bit close to the compass? Garmin wanted 2' of separation. Same with radios. Mine is on a Ram double swingarm so I can monitor it from the cabin or the cockpit.

 

[navigateur]

you ignored my comment about swinging the compass, which is essentially a recalibration and table of offsets. in aviation we must correct for anything added to the panel with correction factors on a correction card. it's not all that critical on the boat, as with GPS I am far more interested in COG or the displayed heading from my linearized flux-gate compass. my bet is that you and many boaters haven't swung their compass or recognized that the magnetic compass is an inherently inaccurate measuring device.

for the record, after the install the compass was not affected much at all. certainly within the margins of aggregate error from all sources. should I need to see the chartplotter display from anywhere else I use the iPhone or iPad via the remote Raymarine apps.

thanks for visiting.

 

[Timo42]

I suppose the compass is more of a decoration with all the electronics...

I wonder if there is any variation depending on bluetooth communication, just seems to make more sense to minimise interference, rather than compensate for it. But given that most recreational sailing in small boats is done within sight of land in known waters, probably a moot point.

And yeah, I have swung my compass, tried to do it on the trailer, but found out it made a difference.

 

[navigateur]

to be honest .. from a pragmatic & engineering perspective, the compass is a dinosaur. true, should one's batteries die en masse and satellites fall from the sky ... I want my compass. otherwise, it's an ornamental anachronism with little practical value.

as a pilot and modern-day sailor, I have little interest in magnetic north, other than some charting landmark references using compass bearings .. which almost seems a bit silly with our GPS precision and charting capabilities. I have paper charts available and sextant at the ready. I'm even fluent in celestial navigation, but I'm not intending to fool anyone. indeed, it's a borderline novelty these modern days.

it's mostly academic now ... those that tend to resist and affront are generally those that spend far more time at the computer than on the water. or so one might believe ...

you know my name is daniel, Timo42. show some respect and class and address me by name and not some sophomoric and jejune disregard, to which, this forum rises above.

daniel

 

[weinie]

jejune? I had to google that one.

 

[navigateur]

I know ... jejune sounds strange. then again, so does someone extrapolating a BlueTooth interference on a compass from watching Andy Griffith reruns and getting annoyed each time a jet flies over their antenna!

 

[Timo42]

Lighten up Francis...

I wouldn't consign the compass to the dustbin of history just yet, why this last Sunday we were out between Marina Del Rey and Palos Verdes ripping along at 6kts closehauled in 5' seas, too far offshore to sight on landmarks to maintain course, I found it far easier to maintain a magnetic heading than interpret the heading gyrations on the small screen of the chartplotter. Things are a bit different and they happen a lot faster in small boats.

 

[navigateur]

good point .. I just use my ADF tuned to KFI.

I was being facetious of course. the compass may be all one has, and it doesn't require batteries. I can display data in a large format on the chartplotter and would probably use COG to get back to land. besides, in 5' seas my compass isn't of much value, and if cloudy my sextant wouldn't help either.

 

[Timo42]

Play nice, trying to have a serious discussion here...



Actually you would be surprised how much easier it is to use the compass in that situation, try it some time. The 27 is a lot more stable than my 22, but I've been out in as heavy a sea as a reasonably sane person would want in both.

 

[Jon_E]

One of the previous owners installed two compasses on my boat, one on each side of the companionway.

I don't know if I would have done it, but there they are and I rather like it. Not only is the redundancy comforting to me as skipper, but my crew doesn't have to keep moving for me to see it should they be leaning with their back against it on long passages.

If it were not for differing tastes and preferences, all boats would be the same.

 

[navigateur]

I can't posit too strong an argument against the compass. after all, celestial navigation is a passion of mine. and, I agree that chasing a digital readout can be challenging. however, most chartplotters afford a linear display, rolling road, HSI, or some form of circular presentation. and, you might end up where you desire when land finally comes to view

I am quite sure my iPhone would get me home in your situation. arguably, the compass utility is far more effective as a heading indicator than the conventional compass.

 

[Timo42]

Considering that most phones die when you sneeze on them, do you really want to whip out your Iphone when you have spray coming over the cabintop?

 

[Faris]

Disclaimer: I am in no way a technophobe. I am actually a serious tech junkie. I design the stuff, program it, and use it all the time. I live and die by my Android, netbook, and a number of other assorted goodies including a wide variety of GPS devices. In fact, I make my living remotely using an array of the latest hardware.

However: I have learned that there is NO substitute for the lowest-tech solution possible, and that ALL technology fails. Period. The more complex, the more points of failure.

I would take a compass and a chart any day over a half-dozen GPS devices. Navigating in this manner forces you to be more acutely aware of your location and orientation at all times. It makes you a better sailor. Period. Navigating by GPS, in an emergency, the way you find your location to broadcast over the radio (assuming the radio is working) is by looking on the GPS (assuming the GPS is working). Navigating by compass, you already know off the top of your head where you are.

Sure, you may say that this is just a matter of how you use your equipment. True enough. However, let's be honest and not make claims that people are as disciplined as they should be when navigating by GPS except perhaps in bluewater conditions.

But, (and this is a big "but"), if you rely on GPS as your primary means of navigation, unless you are very conscientious and disciplined, your ability to navigate by other means will be nonexistent or shaky at best when it comes time to use it, i.e. when your GPS dies and you need to know where you are. This isn't a judgement - it's just human nature. We get complacent.

But, let's be realistic. Most of us never leave sight of land and rarely get so far away from a safe port that we're ever in any real danger of wandering until rations give out and we are forced to eat a loved one in order to survive. So, if your GPS gives out, how bad is that really? In most cases, not at all.

A simple GPS failure is not any more likely to send you careening into the rocks as Y2K was going to make airplanes fall from the sky. Sailors spend so much time worrying about crazy what-if scenarios that it makes one wonder how most of us ever function in the real world.

I recently met a sailor who carried a spare mast. Yup, a spare mast ... and two extra tillers. At some point (and I recognize that it is different for everyone), you just have to accept that there is some risk involved and that overpreparation just gets in the way of the enjoyment of the thing.

Some people get around using only GPS, and, for the most part, there's no problem with that. Sure it is subject to failure more readily than a compass. But, frankly, so what? It makes it very easy to get from point A to point B in an enjoyable manner.

But, at the same time, the compass is certainly not anachronistic. It is does its job perfectly and is no more complicated to use than a GPS when you know what you're doing. There are pros and cons to both instruments, but the GPS is not better simply because it is newer.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Navigation

Well presented, thanks. I happen to agree. Dutton's remains one of my favorite reads.

 

[navigateur]

an alternative view ...

"I would take a compass and a chart any day over a half-dozen GPS devices. Navigating in this manner forces you to be more acutely aware of your location and orientation at all times. It makes you a better sailor. Period."

balderdash - I respectfully disagree with your premise. I know it's the popular mantra used to separate the real sailors from the rest of us Neanderthals, but frankly ... I think it is overreaching and disingenuous. I believe that really good sailors know how to use all the tools available to them, and they are not mutually exclusive. we all get the chart/compass argument and many see it as a badge of honor, but is it actually a safer form of navigation? I think it is not and gladly embrace the accuracy a GPS chart plotter affords me. it allows me to easily evaluate multiple scenarios, flag possible conflicts, precisely navigate to specific points in local waters or other oceans. I argue, with qualifications, that it makes for a better sailor. at least, for the ones that take navigation seriously enough to understand the tools, acknowledge the inherent constraints and required contingencies. as we all should.

I do believe, as a flight instructor, that understanding the compass and chart, dead reckoning, and the essentials of weather are mandatory requirements. as I do as a sailor. I also recognize the benefit and utility of using radio navigation, radar, AIS, and electronic chart plotting in the context of safety.

“Navigating by compass, you already know off the top of your head where you are”

how does that work? dead reckoning makes grand assumptions of where you were and where you now are based on potentially fatal speculative projections and reliance on a point of reference that may not exist. and, if it isn’t a specious proposition, how would that yield greater positional awareness than a GPS chart plotter? as in flying, no matter the means, you must always have an awareness of your approximate position, stay ahead of the boat in determining future actions, and anticipate failure with a secondary plan of action. this has nothing to do with a compass and chart, a passel of satellites, or having Duttons or Bowditch on the shelf.

as an engineer, I understand long-division and how to find square roots. as a pragmatist, I chose to use the tools that afford a faster and far better calculation, attain an accurate solution, and use my newfound time to explore other design ideas and their solutions. the corollary in sailing, is that I can use the tools to be safer and more aware of where I am and what surrounds me.

I understand your position. I couldn't use celestial navigation without a compass. I simply have grown tired of generalizations that presuppose a level of ignorance and displaced cognizance because one opts for an alternative solution, that in my estimation, presents me with a safer, accurate, and more efficient method of navigating.

daniel

 

[Timo42]

I dunno, I'm just a simple mechanic, but it seems to me that over reliance on technology can bite you in the ass, ie the recent tragedy in the NtoE where it appears that the autopilot ran the boat into an island.
That and it takes some of the fun out of sailing, have you ever turned off all the electronic gizmos and just sailed?

 

[navigateur]

as someone said here, we may all roll differently and that’s perfectly acceptable. useful discourse breaks down when you start making this personal. I have never understood this supposition that if you use electronic instrumentation, you must be incapable of using a compass and reading a chart. or … that you won’t have secondary paper charts and the proclivity of using your vision to look for traffic and obstacles.

I would have thought that even a simple mechanic would choose to use the best tool to accomplish the objective, even if hydraulic or electric. I never had problems transitioning from sophisticated aircraft to flying my open-cockpit 1929 Fleet biplane, and I seem to manage well enough on the sailboat with or without the fancy dodads

I actually find enjoyment using the electronics and not dealing with lead-lines and speed-logs. then again, I really enjoy celestial navigation .. so perhaps this discussion is moot.

 

[navigateur]

I didn't realize they had attributed that tragedy to an errant autopilot as of yet. an errant helmsman would be far more accurate. when I first heard the story and read the collective opinion that this might be the cause, I thought just the opposite. rather than a chart and compass and the potential for great uncertainty in their position, if only they had set waypoints and a routing to periodically alarm the person on watch to increment the waypoint and assess and reaffirm their actual position.

 

[Timo42]

More precisely, the collective opinion seems to be the crew erred in relying on their gps to locate them and steer the boat and weren't keeping a proper watch, the dead straight spot track into the cliff supports that. Compass and a hand on the tiller may have prevented the tragedy...

Sometimes the simplest tool is the best...

In any event my position wasn't anti technology, it was against compromising a basic tool through the addition of "the latest and greatest widget".