Catalina 22 vs Cape Dory 25

Aug 19, 2014
3
Catalina 22 Dillon, CO
Hello. I'm interested to get some outside perspective on a decision I'm faced with. I currently own a mid-eighties 22' Catalina Capri. We've had it for 3 years and really enjoy sailing it, although we don't get out as often as I'd like.

We sail on Lake Dillon in Summit county in Colorado. Sailing there can be tricky due to shifting winds, and my wife is still not entirely comfortable under what I consider to be the most enjoyable conditions, with a good, strong wind and the boat heeling over a fair bit.

A friend of ours is selling his 1977 25' Cape Dory, and I'm considering making the change. We'll get a good chance to see the boat this weekend.

I would be interested to hear any opinions on how these boats compare against one another, specifically which one is a better boat for mountain lake sailing, where the weather conditions can change quickly . Thanks in advance for weighing in on this!
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
The CD 25 is nearly twice the displacement, plus is longer, than the Capri 22, on a narrower beam of just over 7'. It won't be as lively, but it might be tender initially and will probably feel cramped below. Basically, a full-keel, heavy displacement vessel (that belongs in the ocean) versus a light displacement one with a fin keel (that doesn't). SLOW!
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,081
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
KG has it right. You're comparing apples & oranges. You might want to do some Google searching on the two boats and read up on the CD. Nice boat, too, but a completely different experience.
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
and my wife is still not entirely comfortable under what I consider to be the most enjoyable conditions, with a good, strong wind and the boat heeling over a fair bit.
Actually, instead of looking for a new boat you might try controlling your boat in a way that puts your wife more at ease with sailing. If heeling too much makes her uncomfortable, then control (reduce) your heel--i.e., keep the boat flat. You can do this by learning how to use the sail controls on the boat; or, if the boat lacks all the necessary ones, have them installed. Sail off the wind more. If you must go to weather ease the heeling by lowering the traveler, perhaps easing the mainsail some to reduce pressure; or reef the main or apply back-stay tension, use a cunningham, or roll up some jib. You should try to build confidence that the boat is safe, that it can be handled in a blow, and that YOU know how to do it! Good sailors try to keep the boat flat b/c it's faster that way than if heeled over excessively. For every husband-wife couple we encounter while sailing we encounter probably 6 to 7 single-handing guys or two pals sailing, together, etc. Typically, the wives won't sail with them, they say. I wonder why?
 
Aug 19, 2014
3
Catalina 22 Dillon, CO
Thanks for the advice! I'm still relatively new to sailing and was leaning toward sticking with the Catalina, continuing to learn more about how to handle the boat in varying conditions, etc. Your comments confirm that that is the right plan.
 

Ted

.
Jan 26, 2005
1,272
C&C 110 Bay Shore, Long Island, NY
Catalina 22 vs Cape Dory

You're getting some good advice. Also, since the seller is a friend of yours, ask him/her to take you and your wife for a sail on the Cape Dory. I think you will be able to answer your own questions after that. If you think that a bigger, heavier boat will satisfy your wife's vertical security issues you will have a viable option. All sailboats heel. Some more than others in a given condition. Control it, get use to it or move on. Only you and your wife can make that call. Many people who are afraid of sailing for fear of a capsize don't realize how much effort it takes to actually accomplish that trick. Tell her that she only needs to start worrying when the masthead hits the water. I tell my new guests that it has to heel 119 degrees and the masthead will be fully submerged below the water before the boat completely rolls. (True number) Most of the time that helps ease their anxiety.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,469
-na -NA Anywhere USA
As a former dealer specializing in smaller sailboats to include Precision, MacGregor, Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau and others as well, I always told my customers to keep the max heel to no more than 14 degrees. Otherwise, you will scare the tar out of others to include children and women and sir, you mentioned your wife. Too often men do that and many girlfriends and wives quit sailing and this is something for them to have a pleasant experience is to keep from heeling over too much.

A good friend who use to sail and race in the Mediteranian taught me that most hulls when heeled over too far will have more wetted surface; thus, more friction slowing the boats down advising to sail faster on a flatter hull by reducing sail and/or letting the sails out depending on the winds, currents and of course any obstruction for example sailing too close to shore on an inland lake with the wind coming over the trees blocking the winds near shore.

By the way, that friend won many races and after applying that on many boats to include the Capri 22, it made sensce and I use to race and win when others were in disbelief. Suggest trying that with the understanding no more than 14 degree heel.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Red,

The guys offered some good advice here. The bottom line however, is what is better for your wife & you? All sailor have different requirements on what works for them. What type of sailing/cruising do YOU want to do?

I had a C22 & it was fun in my earlier years but, I grew to not like the boat. I tell everyone new to sailing that a small day sailor is the best way to start out. This will TEACH you how to sail due to it's size, quick response & reaction time but, it sounds to me that it's time for you to move up based on your post.

Be aware, alot of problems between couples happen when one feels uncomfortable on the boat. Some women differ from the testosterone driven passions of men. What I have found over the years is that comfort works best for women.

I can tell you plenty of stories of wives & girlfriends that lose the passion for sailing because the boat is either too small for comfort, too tender, too low to the water & subject to differing wind & wave conditions. They just don't feel as safe
& there is little room below & amenities suffer.

I believe your day sailor, drop centerboard days may be over. Tender is fun in the beginning but, comfort is paramount for your guests. It's time to move away from roughing it. Wouldn't it be nice to almost stand straight up below? Wouldn't it be nicer to sail a more straight & controllable course. No rolling like with the C22 bathtub shaped hull & not tender cause now, you will have a full keel.

Your questions tell me your inner mind wants you to move up. I know I will get some grief from C22 owners but, I've been there & did that. I moved up when I was ready & I never looked back. I think you may be there.

CR
 

slaume

.
Feb 21, 2014
105
Cape Dory 30 C Noank
I don't believe that one boat does not belong in a lake. A boat belongs in the water and there are some that do not belong too far off shore.

If your winds are typically light and the waves never get too large you may be happier with the Catalina. If things get blustery then the Cape Dory will come into it's own. I sail a CD-30 and a Typhoon before that. These boats are fairly slow in light air but love it when things pipe up a bit. The heavy ballast and long keel make for a very stable boat. The narrow beam will allow the boat to heel to about 15* (or 14) and then harden right up. I have had my boats heeled pretty hard but I should have reduced sail before it got that bad. Usually 20* is about the maximum and you have to work really hard to put the rail in the water. The narrow beam also makes for a very smooth ride. I have come off of some waves that I thought would bury the bow and pound the the boat but she just eases back into the water with her head held high. The newer flat bottom designs will pound you to death in heavy chop compared to these boats.

So what you are giving up in, light air, speed and maneuverability you gain back in comfort and stability.

The Cape Dory is also a very well built boat with very nice hardware, a traditional style and lots of beautiful woodwork. If you don't want to maintain teak, the Catalina would gain some points.

If your main concern is comfort and not necessarily space than there is no comparison. If you want as much room as you can get and intend to race around the buoys then I would go with the Catalina.

For classic good looks the is no contest and that does matter too, Steve.
 
Jan 22, 2008
296
Islander Freeport, 41 Ketch Longmont, CO
Being a Colorado sailor, I can offer a few perspectives. AS you know conditions go from calm to hurricane force and back to calm in about as much time as it takes to read this sentence and with about half as much warning. I'm on Carter Lake in the foothills and so share you experiences although I don't have to deal with the cold water you have in Lake Dillon. We moved from a H25 to a H28 several years ago and haven't looked back but for us it was tiller to wheel, outboard to inboard and port-a-poti to full head.

The CD weighing in at 4000+ lbs is considerably heavier and more stable coupled with its narrow beam and full keel it will sail more upright. it will be slower in the light airs but it will handle the waves you get on Dillon better than your Capri. It does have more creature comforts below like an enclosed head, etc. which make it a little better for longer term (more than over night) stays. On the down side it has a smaller cockpit so not as much room for family and all of your friends but still comfortable for 2 couples and will be slower to respond in the light airs.

I would recommend you try it out, see what the Admiral thinks and how comfortable she is, for me that was my deciding factor. I wanted her to have as much fun as I do and so for us bigger is better.

Good luck and keep us posted on your decision.

Victor
 
Aug 19, 2014
3
Catalina 22 Dillon, CO
I really appreciate all of your replies. We're heading up this afternoon and will be giving the Cape Dory a go tomorrow. We're also going to spend some more time this weekend in the Catalina working on reducing the heel a bit and staying under the 14 degrees recommended by Crazy Dave.

It may be time to start using the traveler. I haven't touched it since we bought the boat, other than to double-check that it was locked down tight.

Or, maybe we'll love the Cape Dory. We'll just have to see. I hope the weather cooperates to give us an opportunity to see what she's like in different conditions.

Cheers,
RedBarnGuy
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
To reduce heel, learn to reduce sail and reduce draft. If you don't do those two things, then you have to steer off the wind to keep the sails on a reach or a run to reduce heel. Boats heel when we sail to windward ( beat). We can either NOT sail to windward, or we can reduce sail or reduce sail draft to reduce heel. To reduce sail draft, haul the outhaul on the main, haul your mainsheet while balancing it with your traveler, and pull your genoa cars toward the stern. That will tighten the foot of your sails by hauling them aft, and it will draw against the center of the sails. A shallower draft will reduce the lift produced by the sail and reduce the heel in the boat. Reefing is reducing sail. It should be self explanatory. Less sail also means less lift. Not sailing to windward is incredibly inconvenient when you are against a lee shore or your destination is to windward! So learn to reduce sail by reefing, or reduce lift by making the draft shallower.

You really cannot simply let the sails out further while maintaining the same tack unless you let them luff in the wind or balance them with the traveler, which is not good for them. Haul your sheets til the sails are just past luffing, or ease your sheets til your sails begin to luff and then haul them slightly til they stop luffing. That is the correct set. There is more to it in terms of tightening the leech, the luff, the foot, etc to get the perfect set, but start by reducing draft or reefing the sails to reduce heel.

Learn to watch the tell-tale strings/tapes on your sails. You probably have one or more tell-tale tapes on the leech of your main. They will act in 3 ways: 1. Trail straight back off the leech of the sail. That means the air pressure between the windward and leeward sides of the sail is balanced. This is optimal. 2. Dangle or swing forward on the windward side. This means the air pressure on the leeward side is greater than the windward side. Your sail is close to luffing or is luffing. You are stalling the windward side of the sail. Your sheet is probably eased too far! 3. Dangle or swing forward on the leeward side. This means the air pressure on the windward side is greater than the leeward side. Your sail is probably hauled too tight, and you are stalling the leeward side.

You also probably have tell-tale yarns near the luff of your genoa. They do the same thing as I described in 1, 2, and 3 above. They should both be trailing aft to indicate proper balance.

If your main has more than one tell-tale on the leech, start by getting the lowest one right, and then you will adjust the balance between the mainsheet, traveler, boom vang, and cunningham to help shape the twist of the sail as you move upward, away from the foot. Worry about getting one right at first. The rest are more about twist and getting all the energy from your sail, which you should do no matter how much sail you have out or draft you have in them.

When adjusting your traveler: move it to leeward when sailing down wind, and move it to windward when sailing upwind. Moving it to windward when sailing upwind will allow you to haul the boom over the center of the boat and thus point higher into the wind. Hauling the mainsheet in this instance will also create a shallower draft. Easing the traveler to lee when sailing down wind will allow the boom to swing wide, and easing the mainsheet will allow a deeper draft too. There are sailors who never change the traveler! This is not right. They are slow! Many boats have travelers that seem like an afterthought. That is unfortunate. They give up a huge performance advantage to boats with effective travelers, on all points of sail.

The positioning of your mainsheet on the boom will also effect sail shape: midboom sheets will draw against the center more and effect the draft more. Endboom sheets will flatten the leech more.

So you see, you can do a lot to reduce heel while sailing the course you want with good power! Yes, some boats want to heel more according to the depth of their keel and center of gravity.

Hope this helps!

Thanks,

Andrew
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Hope this helps!
I don't think it's helpful. I don't think you've gotten the fellow's "problem." He wishes to reduce the heeling force on the boat, presumably while sailing to weather, as that is when the heeling force is typically greatest. He does this by lowering the traveler to leeward during gusts, or in a fresh or strong breeze---not by pulling it to windward--as one of several actions that might be taken.

RBG: sit the wife on the weather side of your Capri 22 just forward of you and let her control the traveler. Make sure it can move easily even if loaded. Center the traveler car initially. Start sailing as you normally would close hauled or close reaching. When a gust comes and the boat starts to heel too much ask her to ease the traveler down to leeward. The boat should respond by flattening out some. When the gust has passed ask her to pull it back up to the center position or even slightly windward of center. If the Capri still heels too much with the traveler all the way to leeward you can also tension the back stay if it's adjustable, and tension the outhaul on the clew of the mainsail. If still going to weather in gusts that threaten to heel to boat excessively with those adjustments in place, "feather up" in the gusts. Bring the boat higher to the wind until the headsail starts to luff only slightly. Do this slowly; as you come up the wind pressure will ease and the boat will flatten. You do not want to tack so take care to keep the wind on the correct side. After the gust passes, you can resume your close-hauled course. If after all of this you're still not feeling comfortable most of the time, roll in some headsail or change to a smaller one, and/or reef the mainsail if it's reefable and/or find a point of sail more off of the wind such as a beam reach.
 
Last edited:
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Ok, well, I disagree. I believe I explained exactly how to reduce heeling force. I also explained other functions, so he may further understand how his boat works. You may disagree if you like, and so may I. Let the OP take it as he may.

Thank you,

Andrew
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Guys,

there is alot of disagreement in this thread. RED has two children & his wife that he is thinking about moving up to a steadier boat.

All C22's get squirrely in gusty/shifting winds. They are also tender in weight distribution. This is FACT. They have a bathtub hull, a drop down centerboard & low freeboard.

This is fine for the more adventurous types but, different folks have different thoughts on what type of sailing they want to do. Red knows how to set sails & course. However in his area, winds can be problematic & can cause "White knuckle" moments. He does not want his wife to lose her enthusiasm in sailing either. But, this is proof that it may be time to move up. A full keel has an advantage over a fin relative to stability, steady tracking & less tender.

I did the C22 for a number of years, see my earlier post. It became time for me to move up & I feel RED may just do the same. It's not as much about sail sets, as it is in the size of boat, tenderness & comfort for HIS family. Give the guy a break, he wasn't asking about setting sails, he was asking about moving up. Why some go off on tangents, I don't know? Staying within the opening context will produce more.

There are always different courses for different folks.

CR
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
captnron said:
All C22's get squirrely in gusty/shifting winds. They are also tender in weight distribution. This is FACT. They have a bathtub hull, a drop down centerboard & low freeboard.
I'm not sure if we're discussing the same boat. He says it is a Capri 22 which we know is a Catalina, but it's not a Catalina 22 with the drop-down centerboard. I believe the Capri 22 is a fractional rig sloop with a fixed keel that can be a winged keel; and there is a shoal draft version, evidently. They also come in Tall Rig, which--if that's the one he has, then there is some of the problem w/ heeling not knowing how to use the "control features".

Switching to a bigger, heavier, more stable boat is fine w/ me!! Go for it. Cape Dory's are excellent crafts, as we've mentioned already. I love 'em. I used to sail the Cape Dory 28 in FL in the 1990's. However, the saloon walk-thru was too narrow to snug my Coleman cooler in the wide orientation where I could just open the top toward me and get a beer; had to stow it lengthwise and put stuff around it to hold it in place, etc.:D
 
  • Like
Likes: loblox
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Kings,

You are correct in your thinking. So if having two children & a wife, where white knuckle problems arose, I know you would think along the same lines. Sailing should be about comfort & safety, not fear. Thanks for the backup pal.

CR
 
Jun 8, 2004
853
Pearson 26W Marblehead
I agree w capt. Ron Your talking apples vs oranges here With an nervous wife and 2 kids You might be better off with a heavier keel boat. A cape dory 25 will heel over just so far and then round up into the breeze It is not going to capsize. As soon as your wife understands this she will be less aprehensive. catalina 22 on the other hand is a tender boat at half the weight. In any case its your decision
 
Jan 22, 2008
507
Catalina 310 278 Lyndeborough NH
I have a Capri 22 (standard rig, wing keel) and a Cape Dory 25.

The Capri 22 is fun to sail in winds up to 20 knots. An experienced sailor can comfortably sail I higher winds. It has lots of cockpit space and enough room for four to sleep closely.

The Cape Dory 25 is heavier and can handle higher winds easier due to the 1700 lbs of ballast. The cockpit is smaller. The cabin has only 5' of headroom. The outboard cannot be tilted out of the water. It must be lifted out.

So which is better?

I prefer sailing the Capri 22 for day trips and simple overnighters. We've learned to reef early and use the traveler for higher winds. The Tall Rig version is better for low winds. Reef sooner!

For going further away from the shore, the Cape Dory 25 is preferred. It is slower, but more stability.

It is much easier to trailer the Capri 22.