Can't get out of the Slip! Wind

Roy10289 · Apr 30, 2009

In response to Bill. A downwind exit is great,but the same downwind slip is a bear to get back into again!!! N'est pas? I agree that thought before chosing a slip is important,but as we can not stop or control the direction of the wind it is only 1 factor in the equation.

Joe · Apr 30, 2009

"But I couldn't get the boat unhooked and me on it at the same time"

If the wind is blowing you off the dock, release your bow line, keep your stern and spring lines doubled around the cleat leading back to the cockpit. This will hold the boat in place till you're ready to depart, at which time you can slip the lines from cockpit, letting the wind push you away from the dock before shifting the boat into gear and moving off.

Take a look in "Chapman's" or any good boathandling book to get some ideas about maneuvering your boat in various scenarios.

sand sailor · Apr 30, 2009

nice dock line holder

NC-C320 · May 1, 2009

High Winds & Springlines

I've read a number of recommendations here and elsewhere that say always, use a springline to snug the boat up against the dock so you can put on remaining lines. Most of these posts suggest a pretied spring line, either midships, or on quarter, or on bow, depending on how one is approaching the dock. My boat is 11' 7' wide in a 14' wide slip and carries most of this width to the stern (normal docking is backing in). The prevailing wind is such that the approach must be downwind/crosswind (wind at a 45 degree angle both in fairway and after turn is made into the slip). While backing is the normal approach, if the wind is high, at some point keeping control over the boat will require too fast an approach, and in this condition, docking would be temporarily bow into the slip. Most of my sailing is single handing, and often, when there is someone with me, they are not frequent boaters, so they are prone to do something other than what is needed. I have a number of assists (buddy lines either side of slip, sometimes a safety line to catch the boat from coming down hard on the finger pier (it's downwind, and it's here that I'm subject to damage the boat, so I want to stay off the pier), and lastly, a quick hook up procedure for stern and bow lines from the steering station. It all works relatively well in my dock, but if I go to a transient dock, then I don't have these. Therefore, the concept of using a spring line is attractive.

From the moment that the loop on a pretied springline is dropped over a piling, there is slack between the piling and the cleat, but the boat must be moving at sufficient speed to maintain rudder control, and when the slack is gone, the boat is going to be jerked to a stop...not good for the boat. If I stop the boat with the engine to avoid this jerking tight, then the wind, in an instant, is going to sweep the boat down onto the finger pier. How do proponents of the springline handle this.

If I back into the slip, propwalk tends to pull me away from the finger pier (my danger place in high cross wind), but if the wind is significant while moving at minimum steerage speed, the wind easily overcomes any attempt for prop walk to move the boat upwind, and the boat will drop down onto the finger pier hard (could put permanent fenders on the finger pier, but don't want to come down hard on it in any case.) Suggestions? Also, if we successfully get the slack out of springline, the narrow bow is going to be drawn up hard against the upwind/outboard piling. The bow pulpit extends over the edge of the boat here, and it's going to slam against the piling before the hull does...I don't need a bent pulpit. Also, if I am successful in getting the bow snugged against the piling, is there enough lever arm so that backing the engine at any speed is going to overcome the crosswind and hold the stern upwind away from the finger pier? Also, when the wind is high, the boat is bouncing up and down in the chop, while the fixed pier is not moving, adding another probable source of damage and reason not to be against the finger pier.

If the spring line is led aft and I try to adjust/lengthen it as the boat moves through the slip, that gets a bit tricky. One mistake or lapse, and it's all going to be bad.

Departing the dock bow first, with the wind trying to blow me down onto the piling, and once into the fairway, down towards fairway deadend, where the boat will be trapped...nearly happened once several years ago..., using a spring line is tricky because I can't start the turn upwind in the fairway until about 30 ft. of my 32 ft lenght is out into the slip. With only about 2 feet clearance between the boat and the two pilings, in any significant crosswind, I going to be swept down onto the leeward piling before I clear the dock while the bow is also rapidly swept downwind towards the dead end, where there's going to be major damage. Comments?

Sorry to be so long, but it's the details that give the problem. I've seen a number of suggestions regarding Jack Klang's book and video...but I saw a couple of video clips posted on the Latitudes and Attitudes site, and the spring line demonstration, to me a least, seemed pointless: no wind (supposedly up wind) with glass like water. Under the demonstration conditions, you didn't even need the spring line...just motor slowly up and stop against the dock. Maybe the book and purchased video is better. Anyway, I'd appreciate any comments on how to handle my situation other than go sailing another day. Thanks.

Stu Jackson · May 1, 2009

Getting away

Joe said:
...keep your stern and spring lines doubled around the cleat leading back to the cockpit. This will hold the boat in place till you're ready to depart, at which time you can slip the lines from cockpit...

Joe's right, only thing to clarify is to make the midships spring line work, the boat HAS to be in idle or a bit higher and in forward gear.

Stu Jackson · May 1, 2009

NC-C320 said:
From the moment that the loop on a pretied springline is dropped over a piling, there is slack between the piling and the cleat, but the boat must be moving at sufficient speed to maintain rudder control, and when the slack is gone, the boat is going to be jerked to a stop...not good for the boat. If I stop the boat with the engine to avoid this jerking tight, then the wind, in an instant, is going to sweep the boat down onto the finger pier. How do proponents of the springline handle this.

NC-C320,

The boat should be going pretty slowly by the time you get to this stage of the process. I usually take the boat out of gear until I get close, then click her into gear at idle or just above as I position the spring line. Therefore, there's little of a jerk involved except for me. The nylon docklines that should be used stretch anyway. By this time the rudder is not doing anything, and your (minimum) forward motion puts you in a position to snag the cleat.

If it's windy, it's a hot landing anyway, and "timing is of the essence," which is why even with guests on board I, too, tend to do it myself.

For those of you new to this concept, I recommend practicing on a big side tie empty dock, perhaps even better than your slip, for the first few times. That way you can get in the groove for understanding the boat's motion once you engage the spring line, plus you don't have to worry about the other side of the dock or your neighbor's boat. When approaching the dock, come in straight at it, bow first, and then slowly turn to get the boat parallel to the dock. Kick the stern around if need be. Remember, the boat is curved from the front to the back, so doing it this way gives you a feel for current and windage at the dock once you get there. I find port side to to be best, if I have a choice, for two reasons: 1) our fuel tank fill is on the port aft quarter; 2) prop walk helps you bring the stern into the dock. YEA, a GOOD reason to LOVE

prop walk! Finally - see I TOLD ya there was a reason!

I'll take some more time to review the rest of your very good questions and well presented discussion.

Thanx,

Stu

PS based on your 30 feet of the 32 foot line, have you considered getting a longer one? I did suggest to Hermit that the spring line length be as long as the boat. Ours is 40 feet for 34 foot boat, and it's not a single inch too long.

Roger Long · May 2, 2009

NC-C320 said:
I've read a number of recommendations here and elsewhere that say always, use a springline to snug the boat up against the dock so you can put on remaining lines.

I'll repeat and expand my statement that this is a good method but it is an advanced one because it requires good coordination between crew and helmsman to get it set up. I don't use it much because I do enough singlehanding that it's easier to do things the same way even when I have help. My boat is so quick on the helm and there was usually so much cross current and wind at my old slip that it wasn't practical to stop steering a moving boat to attach the spring and then get back on board again to apply power.

There is the trick of dropping a premade loop over the cleat but my finger pier was short enough that the boat needed to be pretty much stopped by that time and tight enough that I would be in a pickle if I missed with the loop. Boat stopped six inches off the dock, ashore with bow and stern lines in hand, I could deal with just about anything. Often I would put the bow line on the mid dock cleat as a spring and pull the stern in against it.

I don't like to trust cleats at strange docks until I've kicked them and many have bollards or timber runners that you can't attach a line to quickly anyway. All the minimal engine use practice helps when I dock away from home.

My 32 foot boat is small enough that I can move it as necessary with the docklines. Add a few feet and I'm sure I would be doing things differently, probably putting a spring line on first and using the engine.

NC-C320 · May 2, 2009

High Winds & Springlines

Stu,

Thanks for your reply.. When I say that I must get 30 ft. of 32 ft. boat length out of the slip before I start to make my turn upwind and up freeway, it's not the springline length that I'm talking about. It's that with this boat carrying the wide beam width to the stern, the boat physically will not clear the outboard piling if I start the turn anytime prior to getting this much of boat out of slip. If I was bow in on the slip, the turn could be started earlier, but I have bump out seats at the stern that, given the slip length, won't allow the stern lines to be crossed to accommodate wind tides if the boat is bow in, so I need to keep it in slip stern first.

Another marina or slip of different size really isn't practical since the marina and slip are part of my homeowner complex (slip comes with condo/house). There is a possibility of a longer slip, but I was temporarily in one of these, and because they have midship pilings either side in the slip, tying up the boat so as to accommodate wind tides and line stretch was problematic, and my shorter slip actually suits the boat better.

One of the links to instructional video on docking showed bringing the boat alongside the outboard pilings parallel to fairway and perpendicular to slip, and then warping the boat into the slip using springlines. I can't do this either since pulpits and anchors of adjacent boats extend into the fairway and would damage my boat if I was to try this. Additionally, because of need to back in, the relatively narrow slip width, and wide boat width at stern, again you couldn't start this warping procedure except at very near the stern (within 2-3 ft. of stern), thus leaving most of the forward part of the boat well forward of the warp/pivot point allowing the wind to have a large amount of leverage in opposition to the warping forces and warping leverage arm.

I guess I'm looking for a silver bullet here, but more and more it looks like "wait for another day" might be the answer here. That's too bad, since we miss lots of good sailing days with higher winds. Thanks for any further suggestions.

Stu Jackson · May 2, 2009

NC-C320 said:
...and the spring line demonstration, to me a least, seemed pointless: no wind (supposedly up wind) with glass like water. Under the demonstration conditions, you didn't even need the spring line...just motor slowly up and stop against the dock.

In demonstrating and explaining the midships spring line technique, it is important to note that it is NOT necessary to use it ALL of the time. If it is not required, just use regular dock lines. But it's also a good time to practice. I learned the technique from an old Don Street excerpt in a sailing video (VHS), OK, OK, at least it was NOT Betamax!

Even on days with no wind I use it at the fuel dock on the Estuary here because of currents and being singlehanded. Sometimes we use it at our slip, sometimes we just glide in and grab the dock lines with our boat hook. I don't get off the boat without having all the dock lines attached to the boat, and I don't leave the dock by staying on the dock and disconnecting the boat, I take the dock lines off the boat from the boat, bow first, then stern lines.

Your physical situation with your short dock and pilings frankly has me stumped, and I can't help to explain more about the application of midships spring lines than I have because I do not have the experience with pilings that you and many others have described. Ed Schenk had a doozie a few months ago, you may want to find his posts and go back and read some of the answers.

Years ago we had a temporary summertime slip for our C25 up in the California Delta, in Hollandside River resort. There were very short finger piers, two boats wide, with pilings set outboard, and the summertime Delta wind was abeam and very strong in the afternoons when it came time to dock. Nasty, nasty, nasty. Since it was a temporary slip for us, I learned how to creosote the front of my T shirts by trying to hook up to one of those pilings. I never did get it right, but learned how to do it very quickly! Some of the regulars there had hanging lines off the pilings with garden hose hooks, and made it look like child's play. Another time we had a side tie to a long guest dock with both inside and outside positions, but the winds were from dead ahead and the dock had cleats, and it was easy.

With the C25 we used the aft dock cleat as a spring line by dropping the dock line loop over the jib sheet winch. That, too, works, similar to the midships spring.

Based on the other topic about docking in today's threads, it appears that making your home slip as comfortable as possible is the key to success. I do recall, however, that in Ed's case, he moved!

I don't trust strange docks, but haven't gone quite so far as to get off the boat to kick them first before I trusted them. Very often the condition of the surroundings give you a good idea as to the potential quality of the cleats. Rundown marinas are pretty easy to spot, and leave many other things to be desired beyond cleats.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a solution that works for you.

Franklin · May 2, 2009

Stu:

I think it was you who taught me that 4 years ago. I used it when I was first learning to back into the slip. It worked great except it was hard for me to leave the helm and go loop the cleat and get back to the helm. I started slowing down more and more because the slower I went, the easier it was to get the line around the cleat.

One time I was going very slow but somehow missed the cleat, so I hopped off the boat to get it around the cleat, but by that time, the boat had stopped, so I just walked it the rest of the way in with the spring line. That's when I realized it was just easier to hop off the boat with a midship line and a stern line in my hands and control the boat that way. Been doing it ever since and works at any dock (my mentor kept asking me "what ya going to do when ya have to dock where they don't have long fingers").

To me, the key to docking a boat is going slow, very slow, anticipate how the wind will effect the bow, and have dock lines attached to the boat and ready to grab as you hop off.

Now maybe in 30 years from now it will be dangerous for me to hop off the boat then I'll go back to looping the cleat and hope my aim gets better with age

Stu Jackson · May 2, 2009

Slow docking

Franklin said:
Now maybe in 30 years from now it will be dangerous for me to hop off the boat then I'll go back to looping the cleat and hope my aim gets better with age

Franklin, glad it works for you! Now, I'd be very glad to join you in 30 years from now!

But re-read my reply #15 - by then neither one of us is gonna be hoppin' anywhere. Given my leg, all I'm doin' now is hoppin'!!!

We both may get slammed for saying go slow, because so many of our fellow skippers are having a danged hard time with sideways winds at their slips. That's what makes a hot landing so much fun, eh?

Your idea of "gently steppin' down :naughty: to the dock" and using the spring line from the dock is intriguing. All the more important to use yours and Roger's important advice to Hermit and Jeanette to FIRST loop the line around a cleat and not to pull the boat with the line.

KandD · May 4, 2009

The winds were insane last week!

The winds were fierce last week, we had to move our boat back home from boat-show exile; it was thursday before the winds died down enough to feel comfortable enough to make the long voyage... and that's just because we wanted our floating dock back. Send me a pm and I'll show you how we're "setup" to try and not look like bumbling idiots coming in and out of the marina. It's pretty much what everyone else has said... forward spring-line followed by aft-stern and leisure attachment of the bow. I can idle in forward against the stern and spring to hold the bow against the dock. We also dock into the winds when they come from the S-ish; which helps.

Brian M H23 · May 4, 2009

I'm with Franklin and the midship spring line crew. Every time that I am single-handing and I want to come in, I'll first, in open water, put a midship and stern line on the cleat, thread them under the lifelines, then to the back of the boat. Three fenders go out on the dock-side. As I approach the dock, I go into neutral, lock my tiller, and stand at my shrouds with dock lines in one hand, shroud in the other. As the boat comes up to the dock, I step off, hook the spring line on the cleat and use the 180 degree turn to slow the boat.

I do have to admit, my boat only weighs 3000 lbs!

Ron20324 · May 4, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Is a spring line rope with stretch like anchor line is or is it something different altogether?
Kand D -I will send you a PM.

HS, when anchor lines die, they often end up as dock lines in a new life.

NC-C320 · May 4, 2009

Docklines (Including Spring Lines)

Ron20324 said:
HS, when anchor lines die, they often end up as dock lines in a new life.

Ron, you are probably correct, and for sure, I've seen old broken halyards, used as dock lines (not much shock absorbing stretch either.) I've also noticed that the boats that get banged up against the piers in the storms are usually the same ones that use these recycled junk lines. Sometimes, boaters do nutty stuff. Your boat is going to be tied at the dock when the storms come and you'll not likely be around to help it through. Why not give your boat the best chance to come through without damage by providing it with a set of good lines. It's not that expensive and the lines will last a long time.

Ron20324 · May 5, 2009

NC-C320 said:
Your boat is going to be tied at the dock when the storms come and you'll not likely be around to help it through.

Guest, on behalf of all the other sailors on this forum I'll take exception to your comment that we'll not LIKELY be around, etc.. Any storm that would test the limits of our docking arrangement is a storm that any self-respecting boater would find themself down at the marina looking out for his craft. As for me, I live 200 yards from my slip and most LIKELY, I'm there every day.

kloudie1 · May 6, 2009

Look at these guys, Hermit.. I bought a set of black double braid docklines from them and have been happy.. Best price I could find. Rope quality is good.. not excellent. http://www.webriggingsupply.com/pages/catalog/rope/docklines.html#A