Can you point higher by using the traveler?

[SailArkansas]

Thanks Don. I know I have a little rake in the mast because if I release the wheel the boat heads up on her own. I would think the forestay adjustment would only be meaningful if the stay is sewn into the sail. I have had two boats where the forestay was sewn into the jib. Since those boats did not have backstays I used something called a magic box to tension the jib halyard. If the stay is not and the sail is hanked on, then forestay adjustment would just put extra tension on the hardware wouldn't it?

 

[Todd Smith]

SailArkansas,

The forestay tension ( adjusted with the backstay ) affects the sag of the forestay, which is not the same thing as jib halyard tension.

A jib is cut with a certain sag designed in. The stronger the wind, the more the sag. More forestay tension reduces the sag. So you use the backstay adjuster to keep the sag constant.

 

[NancyD]

Are there are any situations (other than when you are tacking) when the traveler should be set to leeward?

 

[Don Guillette]

MancyD: Nice to see gals interested in sail trim. Actually, over the years, I've found gals are better at overall sail trim than guys!!

I'm not sure about your question so i'll just ramble on. Let's assume you're closehauled in about 10 knots of wind. The best position for the traveler would be where it positions the boom at about the centerline. On a Newport 30 I used to sail and race on I could get away with the boom past the centerline. At the centerline position your boat should be giving you everything she has and you should be heeled over about 15 degrees. If you wanted to ease off the power you would drop the traveler down towards the water line, which would bring the boat back on its feet and you'd slow down. To crank up the speed just pull it up again to a point where you are comfortable.

Not sure I answered your question. If I didn't just fire away and I'll take another shot at it.

 

[Alan]

Nancy, when tacking the traveler is set to windward not leeward. The idea is to get the sails to help turn the boat which minimizes the amount of rudder needed. The rudder acts like a brake pedal in your car. Turning the rudder slows the boat down. If the sails can help to turn the boat less rudder is needed and the boat maintains better speed.

The traveler is set to leeward anytime the boat is sailing off the wind. On a beam reach for example, the traveler would be set to allow the boom hang off the aft corner of the boat (with the proper amount of mainsheet).
When sailing to windward in puffs the traveler is used to control the power (and heel) by decreasing the angle of attack (moving the traveler to leeward)

 

[NancyD]

Thanks - we have been keeping the traveler centered when sailing on a reach, using the mainsheet and vang to control the position of the boom. Now that Hurricane Earl has moved past us, we can get out sailing and try using the traveler too!

Nancy

 

[Cayennita]

When tacking (in a race) we moved the traveler to windward to help the boat get around. If you drop the traveler you will need more helm to get the boat on the next tack. When going around a weather mark you dump the main to help the boat turn downwind. If you have the jib sheeted all the way in and need to come up a few degrees to make a mark, then bringing the traveler up will give you that but with a loss in speed. Both sails must work together, same as a bi-plane. Head sail helps the main.
If you are sailing upwind, and there is a lot of wind, drop the traveler, crank the back stay and vang. On my J-36 we adjust the forestay turnbukle as well as the shrouds before a race for the expected wind and sea conditions. Cruising is more relax and I would put a lot of tension on the forestay, and not be bothered with it.

 

[Bill1565]

If I pull the traveler over to the windward side as I trim the sails, will that let me point higher? My thought is it would give a few degrees without altering the foil's orientation to the wind.l.

On my boat pointing is limited by the jib sheeting angle. Using the traveler I can get the boom centered or even above center, but unless I luff the jib, I don't point any highe.r

 

[Bill Roosa]

Mast bending

When you tension the back stay you take out forestay sag and bend the mast. The bent mast pulls material from the sail and flattens it. Most jibs are designed with some forestay sag so if you take that out you also pull material from the sail and flatten it also.
Think of a sail laying flat on the ground. None of the edges are straight when you have all the material pulled you of the center. A straight mast defines the leach as straight also and pushes material into the mast giving the sail it's designed draft. by bending the mast you pull that material back out and flatten it just like when it is on the ground.

FWIW

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: Mast bending

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I wonder why I'm prolonging this decision. In the past it has turned out to be a mess but I'm a glutton for punishment.

I want to keep this discussion very simple being that I'm just a country boy and common seaman and city boys can confuse me.

You're correct if your mast can be bent as if you were bending your index finger. If that is the case, then your knuckle area is pulling the fullness out of the middle area of the main. On the other hand, if your mast resembles a telephone pole, as is the case with most production boats, you're merely RAKING the mast and the boat thinks you've picked the mast and moved it aft and the boat decides to add weather helm.

 

[Don Guillette]

NancyD: I assume you sail with your husband. Don't tell him about this thread!! Next time you're out sailing lay the following on him using your own words!!

Refer to one of my previous post in this thread where I compared the the traveler to a screen door and indicated the shape of the screen (or mainsail) does not change when you open and close the door. Next time you're out try using the traveler instead of the mainsheet and boom vang to see what happens to the shape of your mainsail. After you do that, repeat the process using just the mainsheet and and then do it again using just the vang. Check out the shape of the sail with each mainsail sail trim control.

When you mess with the mainsheet you're also adjusting twist, draft position and angle of attack. When you mess with the boom vang you're adjusting twist and also draft position. Maybe all you wanted to adjust was angle of attack and when you use the mainsheet and boom vang you are getting more than you bargained for.

Let us know how the on the water session goes!!

 

[Alan]

Very true. Backstay tension on a fractional rigged boat bends the mast to flatten the main de-powering it and reducing heel. It has much less affect on the headstay. However, on a masthead rigged boat the reverse is true. Increased backstay tightens the forestay but has very little bending affect on the mast. The result is a headsail with a finer entry and less draft and little affect on the main.

If you have and use a backstay adjuster the use can be very different based on whether you have a masthead or fractional rig. For one the adjustments almost exclusively affect the main sail while the other they almost exclusively affect the genoa.

 

[sinnettc]

I've been following this thread with interest and spent most of this afternoon's sail playing the traveller instead of the main sheet as I have in the past, except during a few really big/shifty gusts where I also eased the main after dumping the traveller. Despite sailing with the blade and reefed main we spent a lot of time in the high 5's (kts) and low 6's today and my wife, who doesn't usually like sailing in anything over about 10 knots said she had fun too.

So, to my question: Aside from the normal effects of reefing the main (shorter sail/less area/flatter sail/~.5-1.0 Kts slower) does reefing in any way affect the function/effectiveness of the traveller? In other words, is the boat likely to respond differently after I shake out the reef on Tuesday?

 

[Don Guillette]

Chris: Nope, it won't. Let's say you cut your screen door in half (don't know why you'd want to do that but assume you have for the sake of this discussion). Does the half screen react differently when you open and close it? It doesn't. Does it react differently when you put the top half of the screen back together. It doesn't. The traveler is only reacting to the angle of attack and it doesn't care what amount of mainsail you are flying.

Now that you experimented with the traveler do you think you'll use it as often as you can in place of the mainsheet?

This is what I think is great about this forum. Chris, and other folks like him, digested the info he obtain here and took the time to see if it worked for him. Apparently it did. If it didn't work he'd go back to what did work for him.

Over the many years, when I expound on some procedure, I always say "this is what works for me and you should see if it works for you". That is my "out" even though I know whatever I'm talking about works because I only expound on stuff I've done and I know work. If I don't know the subject being discussed I don't comment. Otherwise I'd have RichH, Stu J, Alan, Joe from San Diego and a few others all over me. Sometimes they catch me but not often.

 

[Alan]

Dido Don. It's great to hear that Chris 'tried' the traveler and found out, 'hey, this thing really does work!' He also notes that when he ran out of traveler he jumped to the next level, dumping the mainsheet. This is exactly how sailing and this forum are supposed to work.

Good for you, Chris

 

[Stu Jackson]

Don, I think the screen door analogy is one of the clearest, simplest and most easily understood concepts about the use of the traveler ever. Very, very good for "espousing" that one!

 

[sinnettc]

Which half of the screen door? 8^P

Don, yes, I expect I'll be using the traveller more, though I can see I'll be replacing the somewhat worn control line in the spring. I had been using it some previously, mostly in severe puffs, but I rarely brought it above the center line so I suspect I was letting some performance get away from me.

 

[John]

Me too

On my boat pointing is limited by the jib sheeting angle. Using the traveler I can get the boom centered or even above center, but unless I luff the jib, I don't point any highe.r

This is my experience also. Comments?

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: Me too

A common question that comes up frequently when I talk to sailors and that is "how can I get my boat to point higher?". I generally counter with "why do you want to point higher?". I'm really just curious as I like to know why sailors want to do this or that. Half the folks don't have an answer and they throw out the fact they think it's the fastest point of sail. It isn't.

I'm far from an engineer and not very technical but what I've noticed over the years is when you're pointing as high as you can reasonable go your course is on a line closer to your destination but your slower compared to falling off a bit, which takes you off the direct line to your destination, but is a faster point of sail. FAST, in sailing terminology, is a relative term. You are not breaking the land/sea speed record!!

On boats I've been on where the skipper wants to point higher and higher I tell him to go for it and see how high he can get. Boats have different max pointing angles and they depend on a bunch of elements - sails , sail trim and just the design of the boat plus probably a bunch more things.

Here's the problem with trying to point higher and higher. At some point you pass the highest pointing angle for your boat and pointing becomes PINCHING. At this point you are very, very close to stalling the sail. All it takes is a few more degrees and you're in trouble.

Here's my suggestion - for what it's worth. Bring your boat up as high as you can and forget trying to get any higher. Then FALL OFF just a bit and sail happily on your way.

If you were sailing against your friends similiar boat (say two C30's or two Hunters) going head to head with him pinching up and you falling off just a bit, you'll beat him every time. I don't know why that is but it is and I've experienced it at the C30 National Regattas, which is like match racing. I love match racing and don't much care for beer can racing.

 

[sinnettc]

Don,

I'd say for me, the reason I usually try to point higher or pinch is in an attempt to avoid that "extra" tack. There are generally two reasons I'd want to avoid a tack: If I can point just enough higher maybe I'll clear the boats at the yacht club when returning to our marina and get docked before it's completely dark, or if it's beer can night, I'm trying to avoid giving up a big chunk of ground to the boats that haven't caught me (yet) on the last leg.

Neither's a good reason, but that's usually why I end up pinching.