I was sitting on deck watching the kitties play and looking at the main sheets controls when the gears started to turn. If I pull the traveler over to the windward side as I trim the sails, will that let me point higher? My thought is it would give a few degrees without altering the foil's orientation to the wind. Up until now I haven't used it for much other then trying to de-power in high winds by shifting it to the leeward to dump air from the sail.
Can you point higher by using the traveler?
- Thread starter KandD
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Absolutely!! it's all about BOOM location not the traveler. When beating, the traveler is almost always to weather. The vang and mainsheet are used to set the correct twist in the sail, then the traveler is hauled to weather to center the boom. The more twist the further to weather the traveler.
Alan and Paul answered the question but a couple of Kand's statements caught my attention. I know what it is like to sit and stare at the sail trim controls for the main and jib and wonder what they are all about. I often thought I was the only sailor worldwide that didn't get it but over the years of dealing with sail trim I've come to realize I was not alone.
I've probably said a million times, if a sailor does not understand draft depth, draft position, twist and ANGLE OF ATTACK, sail trim will never make any sense. After a sailor understands those 4 elements the next thing he has to learn is what sail trim controls on the main and jib are used to adjust those 4 elements. If he gets that far he is almost home from a sail trim standpoint.
Lets say I was sitting with KanD on his boat tipping a "tinney" (Aussie for beer) and the talk casually turned to the traveler and he asked "does the traveler change the shape of the sail?". Before I answered his question I would tell him what the traveler adjusts - It adjust ONLY and I mean ONLY the ANGLE OF ATTACK and then I'd briefly explain angle of attack, which is the boats accelerator. Crank on the traveler and move the boom toward the centerline and the boat speeds up. Ease the traveler so the boom moves away from the centerline and the boat slows down.
Next, I'd explain how the traveler works relative to sail shape. Picture your garage screen door with a pin in the outside corner that rides in a grove in the floor. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change? Obviously, it doesn't. The fact that the traveler does not change the shape of the sail is exactly why I use it to bring the boat back on its feet when it is heeled over too much.
Now, how long did that explanation take? KanD, what do you think so far? Do you now have a basic understanding of how the traveler works? Now that you know what the traveler does will you start using it more often?
KanD, I could have used the mainsheet to adjust the angle of attack but what would happen to the shape of the sail if I did?
I've probably said a million times, if a sailor does not understand draft depth, draft position, twist and ANGLE OF ATTACK, sail trim will never make any sense. After a sailor understands those 4 elements the next thing he has to learn is what sail trim controls on the main and jib are used to adjust those 4 elements. If he gets that far he is almost home from a sail trim standpoint.
Lets say I was sitting with KanD on his boat tipping a "tinney" (Aussie for beer) and the talk casually turned to the traveler and he asked "does the traveler change the shape of the sail?". Before I answered his question I would tell him what the traveler adjusts - It adjust ONLY and I mean ONLY the ANGLE OF ATTACK and then I'd briefly explain angle of attack, which is the boats accelerator. Crank on the traveler and move the boom toward the centerline and the boat speeds up. Ease the traveler so the boom moves away from the centerline and the boat slows down.
Next, I'd explain how the traveler works relative to sail shape. Picture your garage screen door with a pin in the outside corner that rides in a grove in the floor. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change? Obviously, it doesn't. The fact that the traveler does not change the shape of the sail is exactly why I use it to bring the boat back on its feet when it is heeled over too much.
Now, how long did that explanation take? KanD, what do you think so far? Do you now have a basic understanding of how the traveler works? Now that you know what the traveler does will you start using it more often?
KanD, I could have used the mainsheet to adjust the angle of attack but what would happen to the shape of the sail if I did?
I read with great interest the posts to "Tacking - What am I doing wrong?????" that was posted a couple of weeks ago. There was a lot of talk about travelers in those posts. I am in my second season of learning with an old twenty footer, and I decided to rig up a traveler out of rope using the cleats on each side of the transom to see if it was true. I found that you do point higher into the wind, and that it is easier to tack with the boom over the centerline of the boat. I am all set to find a way to install a traveler permanently on my boat. Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Ray
Thanks,
Ray
Ray: Due to the size of your boat and mainsail area you don't need a very big traveler. Maybe, for starters, you could give Garhauer a call - ask for Marc or Guido.
Try it, it will not wreck the boat
My count is a maximum of 7 lines that can be pulled on to change either the shape of the mainsail or how it "attacks" the wind. To wit: when you tighten:
The halyard it flattens (reduces draft depth) the forward portion of the sail and moves the deepest draft forward
The Cunningham does the same but mainly for the bottom 1/3 of the mainsail
The outhaul flattens (reduces draft depth) the entire bottom half of the mainsail
The leach line is pretty much worthless but can stop that annoying flutter in the leach once you get everything else trimmed up
The traveler changes the sails angle of attack (just like the elevator on a plane) with the wind
The main sheet or vang controls the draft depth and twist of the sail
As Don said previously if you don't know what draft, twist, and angle of attack are you are going to be pulling randomly on lines with varied results
I was taught that there are two extremes of sail shape, big and baggy for light winds and flat as a pancake for high winds. Think of it from an airplane viewpoint. A big slow transport has very big wings with a lot of curve (draft) to them. They need all that wing area to make lift at the low air speed that they fly at. a fighter jet has small flat wings because he uses the high wind speed to produce the lift he needs. So what rule does this produce you ask?
For all lines except the traveler, sheet and vang
Loosen up the lines in light airs and tighten them up in higher winds. Then set the traveler so that the mainsail luft is aligned with the windex. Then set the sheet/vang for proper tale-tell streaming.
Also, when you reef (higher winds, smaller wings) you automagicaly flatten the sail. Those sail designers think of everything.
Oh yea, always trim the foresail first then the main as the foresail redirects the airflow.
Which brings up sail balance, basically where the tiller is after sail trimming is done. You are looking for the tiller to be slightly to windward or the wheel centered position to be slightly to leeward. If you have too much leeward tiller then either the jib is too powerful or the main is not powerful enough. The opposite is true for a tiller too far to windward.
My count is a maximum of 7 lines that can be pulled on to change either the shape of the mainsail or how it "attacks" the wind. To wit: when you tighten:
The halyard it flattens (reduces draft depth) the forward portion of the sail and moves the deepest draft forward
The Cunningham does the same but mainly for the bottom 1/3 of the mainsail
The outhaul flattens (reduces draft depth) the entire bottom half of the mainsail
The leach line is pretty much worthless but can stop that annoying flutter in the leach once you get everything else trimmed up
The traveler changes the sails angle of attack (just like the elevator on a plane) with the wind
The main sheet or vang controls the draft depth and twist of the sail
As Don said previously if you don't know what draft, twist, and angle of attack are you are going to be pulling randomly on lines with varied results
I was taught that there are two extremes of sail shape, big and baggy for light winds and flat as a pancake for high winds. Think of it from an airplane viewpoint. A big slow transport has very big wings with a lot of curve (draft) to them. They need all that wing area to make lift at the low air speed that they fly at. a fighter jet has small flat wings because he uses the high wind speed to produce the lift he needs. So what rule does this produce you ask?
For all lines except the traveler, sheet and vang
Loosen up the lines in light airs and tighten them up in higher winds. Then set the traveler so that the mainsail luft is aligned with the windex. Then set the sheet/vang for proper tale-tell streaming.
Also, when you reef (higher winds, smaller wings) you automagicaly flatten the sail. Those sail designers think of everything.
Oh yea, always trim the foresail first then the main as the foresail redirects the airflow.
Which brings up sail balance, basically where the tiller is after sail trimming is done. You are looking for the tiller to be slightly to windward or the wheel centered position to be slightly to leeward. If you have too much leeward tiller then either the jib is too powerful or the main is not powerful enough. The opposite is true for a tiller too far to windward.
Re: Try it, it will not wreck the boat
This question is for beginners to low intermediates - Why does Bill R say you should cock the rudder slightly (about 10 degrees - 10 degrees is my choice)???
Second question for the same group - do you think big and baggy is a good choice for light winds?? Why or why not? It definately is the choice for heavy winds.
Beginners, don't leave me hanging here. Don't be bashful. Take a shot at an answer. That is how we learn. The WHAT TO DO of sail trim is easy. If I fed a monkey enough bananas I could get him to sail a boat but THE WHY of sail trim is everything!! Once you know WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment you are home from a sail trim standpoint.
This question is for beginners to low intermediates - Why does Bill R say you should cock the rudder slightly (about 10 degrees - 10 degrees is my choice)???
Second question for the same group - do you think big and baggy is a good choice for light winds?? Why or why not? It definately is the choice for heavy winds.
Beginners, don't leave me hanging here. Don't be bashful. Take a shot at an answer. That is how we learn. The WHAT TO DO of sail trim is easy. If I fed a monkey enough bananas I could get him to sail a boat but THE WHY of sail trim is everything!! Once you know WHY you are making a particular sail trim adjustment you are home from a sail trim standpoint.
The hydro/arodynamical interaction of .....
numerous forces result in what I like to call "gurrgle." Gurrgle being the blissful sound that a boat makes when moving fast through smooth water.
We know that the result of all those forces is forward motion and some heel. Is it possible to sail backward though? Does your boat have a reverse gear when under sail?
numerous forces result in what I like to call "gurrgle." Gurrgle being the blissful sound that a boat makes when moving fast through smooth water.
We know that the result of all those forces is forward motion and some heel. Is it possible to sail backward though? Does your boat have a reverse gear when under sail?
answering the call to low intermediates
I try to trim sails so that I need to pull the tiller slightly to windward so I can feel how they're are pulling, my understanding is that this position gives a little windward lift to the underwater bits of my boat though this is still a little difficult for me to perceive.
I
I try to trim sails so that I need to pull the tiller slightly to windward so I can feel how they're are pulling, my understanding is that this position gives a little windward lift to the underwater bits of my boat though this is still a little difficult for me to perceive.
I
Re: answering the call to low intermediates
Also I trim the sails flat for very light wind and very heavy wind, flat for less drag in light and less power in heavy. Baggy seems fast in about 7-12 mph true wind speed.
Also I trim the sails flat for very light wind and very heavy wind, flat for less drag in light and less power in heavy. Baggy seems fast in about 7-12 mph true wind speed.
Re: answering the call to low intermediates
cwkemp: Right on mate!! You're correct on both. Regarding the first question - lift, which powers the boat, is generated from 3 sources. They are the sails, the keel and lastly the rudder. Most skippers prefer a neutral rudder and they miss one of the elements. If you want to get 100% efficiency from your boat you should use all 3 elements.
Here's why a baggy sail does not cut it in very light to light wind even though you'd think that is the correct setting because the skipper is trying to harness what little wind there is but the wind simply does not have the power to get around a baggy sail and the wind and the sails just stall. To sail through the full spectrum of wind and make it overly simple, you start out flat and as the wind pipes up you gradually add depth until about maybe 12 knots and then you start to gradually flatten down the main and jib. The ideal max draft depth is about 30%.
cwkemp, you're a pretty knowledgeable low intermediate. You're rating yourself too low!!
If a sailor can sail in light air he can sail in anything. Next time any of you guys are on the water in light air try my suggestion and see if it works for you. Go from flat to baggy and then back to flat and see how the speed of your boat is effected.
cwkemp: Right on mate!! You're correct on both. Regarding the first question - lift, which powers the boat, is generated from 3 sources. They are the sails, the keel and lastly the rudder. Most skippers prefer a neutral rudder and they miss one of the elements. If you want to get 100% efficiency from your boat you should use all 3 elements.
Here's why a baggy sail does not cut it in very light to light wind even though you'd think that is the correct setting because the skipper is trying to harness what little wind there is but the wind simply does not have the power to get around a baggy sail and the wind and the sails just stall. To sail through the full spectrum of wind and make it overly simple, you start out flat and as the wind pipes up you gradually add depth until about maybe 12 knots and then you start to gradually flatten down the main and jib. The ideal max draft depth is about 30%.
cwkemp, you're a pretty knowledgeable low intermediate. You're rating yourself too low!!
If a sailor can sail in light air he can sail in anything. Next time any of you guys are on the water in light air try my suggestion and see if it works for you. Go from flat to baggy and then back to flat and see how the speed of your boat is effected.
No one has mentioned mast rake. Does that affect sail trim? If not, why have an adjustable backstay?
Oh no, dear God not this subject again. I'm going to give it a quick hit and hopefully it will go away.
There are two things you can do to the mast with the backstay adjuster. The first is rake, which means you're leaning it back. The first thing the boat thinks is you've picked up the mast and moved it aft. You have now created weather helm. A little bit of rake can be a good thing. Too much rake is a bad thing. You also have to take into consideration the effect on the front stay.
The next thing you can do is BEND the mast if you have a bendy mast - like a J boat. Most boats have telephone poles for masts and they can't be bent. they can only be raked. By bending the mast - bend your index finger to see what I mean - you're taking the fulness out of the middle of the mainsail and reducing draft depth.
My C30 was tricked out with just about everything Garhauer made and one of the items was their best adjustable backstay unit, which I rarely used. Why did I have it? It looked great on the boat - so did spinner hubcaps on my 1956 Chevy Bel Air convert!! Why did I ever sell that car.
Note to regulars and oldtimers on this forum. Maybe you remember what happened the last time this subject came up. Maybe not but I do and I really don't want to talk about mast rake anymore - or forever.
There are two things you can do to the mast with the backstay adjuster. The first is rake, which means you're leaning it back. The first thing the boat thinks is you've picked up the mast and moved it aft. You have now created weather helm. A little bit of rake can be a good thing. Too much rake is a bad thing. You also have to take into consideration the effect on the front stay.
The next thing you can do is BEND the mast if you have a bendy mast - like a J boat. Most boats have telephone poles for masts and they can't be bent. they can only be raked. By bending the mast - bend your index finger to see what I mean - you're taking the fulness out of the middle of the mainsail and reducing draft depth.
My C30 was tricked out with just about everything Garhauer made and one of the items was their best adjustable backstay unit, which I rarely used. Why did I have it? It looked great on the boat - so did spinner hubcaps on my 1956 Chevy Bel Air convert!! Why did I ever sell that car.
Note to regulars and oldtimers on this forum. Maybe you remember what happened the last time this subject came up. Maybe not but I do and I really don't want to talk about mast rake anymore - or forever.
Methinks Don presupposes
that we don't use the right sails for the right airs. I'd agree that a storm sail will not work well in light airs nor will that 6 oz jib. Just hangs there all a-slanting. A light air jib does not have that problem which is why racers have so many sails.
FWIW
that we don't use the right sails for the right airs. I'd agree that a storm sail will not work well in light airs nor will that 6 oz jib. Just hangs there all a-slanting. A light air jib does not have that problem which is why racers have so many sails.
FWIW
Thanks for all the replies!
I'm getting the hang of all of it, I just need to get out and try it more. I've been using mostly the main sheet to adjust the angle of attack, I'm sure this will make a world of difference. The bit on light air is interesting to note as well, I have made the sail as full as possible in the past and stared angrily at the knot meter reading close to 0.
I'll keep the bit on !#@!&@#%& as before shipping the boat our weather helm was rather strong.
THANKS!!!!
Now, what happens if I'm pointing the best I can, the mast is centered and I pull the travler to the windward, while pointing my boat a few degrees higher? I.e keeping the same angle of attack with the wind.
I'm getting the hang of all of it, I just need to get out and try it more. I've been using mostly the main sheet to adjust the angle of attack, I'm sure this will make a world of difference. The bit on light air is interesting to note as well, I have made the sail as full as possible in the past and stared angrily at the knot meter reading close to 0.
I'll keep the bit on !#@!&@#%& as before shipping the boat our weather helm was rather strong.
THANKS!!!!
Now, what happens if I'm pointing the best I can, the mast is centered and I pull the travler to the windward, while pointing my boat a few degrees higher? I.e keeping the same angle of attack with the wind.
Thanks for answering. I never could figure out what I was supposed to do with the darn thing. My boat has sufficient weather helm without any tension from the adjuster so I can fuhget aboud it.
SailArkansas: I want to sneak this in (hopefully RichH, Alan and a few others won't see it and let this subject slide) because boats don't have weather helm built into them. Like I said a little mast rake is not bad. Next time you're out on the water and sailing closehauled try to induce just a little rake and see what happens. By little I mean a LITTLE at a time and with each adjustment wait to see what happens. It is like adjusting the 4 jets on the on a car engine (when you could adjust them) or adjusting your shower from cold to hot - you have to wait a few seconds for the effect to kick in. If the weather helm gets worse just release the adjuster.
Have you checked to see if your mast is straight up and down? A simple plumb bob will give you the answer. Your mast may not be straight up and down.
One last point - every sail trim control for the main and jib has a specific purpose. They are adjusting either draft depth, draft position, twist or angle of attack. Once you figure out what the controls are adjusting you almost home from a sail trim standpoint otherwise you're just guessing.
Have you checked to see if your mast is straight up and down? A simple plumb bob will give you the answer. Your mast may not be straight up and down.
One last point - every sail trim control for the main and jib has a specific purpose. They are adjusting either draft depth, draft position, twist or angle of attack. Once you figure out what the controls are adjusting you almost home from a sail trim standpoint otherwise you're just guessing.
Mast Rake & Backstay Adjusters
Mast Rake
Don, I understand, but...
Here's the but: you mentioned rake, and also telephone poles. You kinda slid by the "front stay" tensioning. With our telephone masts, rake ain't gonna happen. All a backstay adjuster will do is tighten your forestay a little bit. I've found it very useful. I have all the Garhauer stuff, too.
This is just for the new-to-this-discussion guys and gals. And just for the record...
Mast Rake
Don, I understand, but...
Here's the but: you mentioned rake, and also telephone poles. You kinda slid by the "front stay" tensioning. With our telephone masts, rake ain't gonna happen. All a backstay adjuster will do is tighten your forestay a little bit. I've found it very useful. I have all the Garhauer stuff, too.
This is just for the new-to-this-discussion guys and gals. And just for the record...
KandD, take a look at the earlier thread on twist ...
There is a lot said about the differences between adjusting the traveler vs adjusting the main sheet for angle of attack and it may explain a lot to you. I was converted from my earlier reasoning but it took a lot of fine tuning of earlier discussions for me to get there. I, like you, had not always used the traveler for the most affect. When close hauled in gusty conditions, I had a tendancy to center the traveler and sheet in tight with the mainsheet to get the closest angle of attack. Because of this position (main sheet tight, boom pulled down, elimination of twist) I was stalling the head of the sail which leads to being overpowered (and NOT fast), excessive weather helm and too much sail and rudder adjustment to stay on our feet and on course.
I found that by setting the traveler to windward, I could get my desired angle of attack (centered boom when close hauled) and allow the boom to raise for the right amount of twist, draft and draft position. In gusty conditions, this was much better. The head of the sail does not stall in gusts, the boat isn't over-powered, weather-helm stays nicely controlled, and the bonus is that gusts essentially give you a lift that allows you to point higher and sail faster, all because the twist and draft is properly positioned. Without using the traveler in this way, it isn't possible to achieve the sail shape that is desired without sacrificing the upwind angle with the wind.
There is one topic that we didn't reconcile in that thread, however. I am sure that Don said that the main sheet impacts 3 of the 4 factors ... angle of attack, twist, and draft position (if I'm not mistaken). Rich, Alan and Todd all implied that draft depth is significantly influenced by the main sheet (easing the sheet allows the boom to raise and increase draft - and power - specifically leading to being over-powered). I would like to hear Don elaborate. (Don - I'd go to your charts if I can find them - I moved them off the boat for safe-keeping last winter and now can't locate them)
I'll also acknowledge what Rich says about the head of the sail when waves cause the top of the mast to oscillate. Where I sail, waves aren't an issue, so the movement of the mast at the top doesn't have the same mitigating effect on twist that Rich experiences. I think he was saying that because the top of the mast is oscillating much more significantly in waves, that twist is not as much of a factor as draft depth, because the relative wind speed at the top of the mast is so wildly changeable.
There is a lot said about the differences between adjusting the traveler vs adjusting the main sheet for angle of attack and it may explain a lot to you. I was converted from my earlier reasoning but it took a lot of fine tuning of earlier discussions for me to get there. I, like you, had not always used the traveler for the most affect. When close hauled in gusty conditions, I had a tendancy to center the traveler and sheet in tight with the mainsheet to get the closest angle of attack. Because of this position (main sheet tight, boom pulled down, elimination of twist) I was stalling the head of the sail which leads to being overpowered (and NOT fast), excessive weather helm and too much sail and rudder adjustment to stay on our feet and on course.
I found that by setting the traveler to windward, I could get my desired angle of attack (centered boom when close hauled) and allow the boom to raise for the right amount of twist, draft and draft position. In gusty conditions, this was much better. The head of the sail does not stall in gusts, the boat isn't over-powered, weather-helm stays nicely controlled, and the bonus is that gusts essentially give you a lift that allows you to point higher and sail faster, all because the twist and draft is properly positioned. Without using the traveler in this way, it isn't possible to achieve the sail shape that is desired without sacrificing the upwind angle with the wind.
There is one topic that we didn't reconcile in that thread, however. I am sure that Don said that the main sheet impacts 3 of the 4 factors ... angle of attack, twist, and draft position (if I'm not mistaken). Rich, Alan and Todd all implied that draft depth is significantly influenced by the main sheet (easing the sheet allows the boom to raise and increase draft - and power - specifically leading to being over-powered). I would like to hear Don elaborate. (Don - I'd go to your charts if I can find them - I moved them off the boat for safe-keeping last winter and now can't locate them
)I'll also acknowledge what Rich says about the head of the sail when waves cause the top of the mast to oscillate. Where I sail, waves aren't an issue, so the movement of the mast at the top doesn't have the same mitigating effect on twist that Rich experiences. I think he was saying that because the top of the mast is oscillating much more significantly in waves, that twist is not as much of a factor as draft depth, because the relative wind speed at the top of the mast is so wildly changeable.
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