Cal 3-34, survey is better than expected....

[centerline]

we got the survey results back, and although the boat is not quite as bad as I expected, the value is still down due to all the little stuff that is wrong with it... although the negotiated price and the value as surveyed is almost the same, im still going back and forth on the decision to purchase or pass...

there are soooo many little thing that it must have been done by someone who had no idea what an ABYC standard is, or that there even was such a thing.....

the decks sounded a slightly higher than expected moisture content with the meter.... there is no saturation at all, and the decks measured about the same thru out... due to the higher than expected reading, extra time was put in to hammer sounding, and could find no abnormalities.... suggested core sampling, then drying if neccessary. no rot was found.

there seems to be nothing expensive to repair, individually, but collectivly it may add up to a grand.... if I do the work myself....
the blister repairs and bottom paint, and the dodger and bimini will be quite a bit more....

I have included here what is in the survey...

replace non-stainless hose clamps, install 2 clamps each connection below the waterline, install GFCI in 120V system, clean up wiring and remove deleted/dead wires, replace non compliant hoses on seacocks, repair nav lights, remove extension cords that run to the microwave and tv, install gimbal lock on LPG range, repair non-compliant LPG system, replace hot water heater safety pop off, expired safety flares, mount fire extinguisher, install CO detector, no horn on board, auto bilge pump switch does not work (manual switch does), 120v appliances/outlets all wired on same circuit- split to individual circuit breakers (available but not used), wrong style of main breaker used, reverse polarity at 120v outlet in galley, new 12Vcircuit panels installed, but some switches are mislabled or not marked as spares-2 indicator lights out, corrosion at battery terminal and at starter terminal, wing nuts used on batteries, all wiring is loose, messy and unsecured, clamps used on push-loc hose fittings, plastic fuel filter bowls, fuel filler deck fitting not marked "diesel", fuel level sending unit is moist with fuel (exterior), ABS pipe found in wet exhaust system, corroded and inadaquate number of exhaust hose clamps, dormant zincs, 5-10 hull blisters approaching 1", needs bottom paint.

and in addition to all this immediate attention stuff, there are a few maintenance items that will need to have some attention in due course...
rigging inspection, tie off anchor rode, sea strainer not secured, install cotter pins in place of ring-dings, rub rail is deteriorated, replace twine and plumbers tape that is holding hoses and wiring with marine grade fasteners and chafe protection, kinked freshwater vent hose, crazing in acrylic windows, dodger windows yellowed, loose drive belts on engine, some corrosion noted on engine components, oily film on motor(but not wet), coolant level low, bonding strap contacting trans shift lever.

There are many extras that go with the boat, in addition to the necessary and common equipment such as spinnaker and whisker poles, furler, sails, chute, all the electronics, wind meters, upgraded charging system and inverter, life vests & horseshoe, anchors (3) & chain/rode, ladder, and items that are attached, the boat has also been refit with a new mast and boom (lefiell), with heavier rigging....

and these unattached items
45 watt solar panel, new cabin led light fixtures, new deck fill, new hawse pipe, new guest multi battery disconnect switch, new 8" deck plates, 2 new opening portlights, new raw water pump, new LPG solenoid, 2 gallons west systems epoxy, 3 new GFCI switches, extra sails, 2 genoas, 1 main, 2 WM auto inflate offshore PFD's/harness with tethers and jacklines, 2 50ft marine extension cords with adaptors, evenrude 4hp outboard, life sling, emergency tiller, teak cockpit table, magma propane grill, bulkhead mounted oil lamp, LPG locker, and extra 19gallon fuel tank....

 

[NYSail]

Sounds like typical maintenance on a boat of this vintage. My first boat was a cal 34 Mark III.... 1977. Great well balanced boat. And you have to love the deep bilge..... Engine stays nice and dry.
Good luck!

 

[hawk232]

my gut feeling would be if you are that on edge and indecisive about this boat then you should pass! a boat WILL come along that you HAVE to have... not one that you might or might not want to have...

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Preface - I am not trying to convince you to walk away...

...you mention being confused at the apparent fixes, executed poorly. You also mention many uninstalled upgrades.

Were I in your shoes, seeing the forest that all these trees make up would have me asking myself; was this a neglected or deferred maintenance boat that somebody bought, planning to bring it up to snuff, but gave up on? If so, how bad was it before then? What else might have needed attention that wasn't marginally addressed? Is it worse now that an amateur has mucked about with it? Why was all this work done and bits bought and now it's being sold prematurely?

Anyway, I'd be looking for real comfort from the answers or explanations before I jumped in at any price. Any holes in the story or major unknowns would have me assuming it was a worst-case project, and walking unless that's what I was looking for.

Good luck with the analysis, which is tough to run with such an emotional purchase.

 

[jibes138]

Putting something like "bottom paint" in a survey as if it is a problem concerns me. This is normal maintenance on any boat and needs attention every two to three years or more often if hauled every year for the winter. If it is not an ablative paint and it was hauled for the survey and was out of the water for even a few weeks it would need fresh bottom paint. This is more a comment from the surveyor than any kind of issue.
Construction standards on boats back then were not necessarily the same as the ABYC requires today, so there is nothing mandating bringing it up to those standards even though that is a best practice. Many boats in the old days were built with gate valves instead of true seacocks for instance, a terrible idea, but that was common back in the late 70's. Certainly not up to ABYC standards even back then. Any boat this old is also likely a candidate for rewiring. Many old boats did not use pre-tinned wire and corrosion will creep down the wire until it finally fails possibly catastrophically.
If it has a new mast and boom it seems like the rigging would have had to have been replaced at the same time? Unless it was an exact replacement it seems low probability the fittings would be the same locations, types, and lengths? Ask the broker to provide this information so you can get the age of the rigging from the owner.
Probably the most concerning issue is the LPG system as that can be catastrophic if it fails.

 

[woodster]

when i was in grade school we took a field trip ( a ride on the Mississippi river on the Memphis Queen river boat) when the ride was over there was a money extractor rack as we were leaving the boat ...an on that rack was a sign that read " Anyone who enjoys work can have a Hell of a time in this place" i bought it an hung it in my dads shop at home ....the survey that you just described made me think of that .....that may not be what you want to do ...but for me i would be in hog heaven....that boat doesn't sound like it that bad if you like fixing things...JMTC's....good luck on your choice...

regards

woody

 

[Gunni]

Scary huh? The surveyor has given you a very clear-eyed message - owning and maintaining a large keelboat is a chore. Always. If you defer work, and get distracted for a couple of years, this is what you get. Question is, are you up to the restoration task, and prepared for the ongoing maintenance? It is an old boat. But it has a good pedigree. Jump, or clear the door.

 

[Jackdaw]

It does not sound too bad for a Cal of that vintage. For sure neglected but nothing major.

The part to wrap your head around is that a boat of this size is ten times more complicated than a 25 foot trailer sailor, and will over ten time as expensive to maintain. Get used to that.

As an aside, if your want your new boat to be in GREAT condition, then BUY one in great condition. I can assume you that you will spend more money (and time) fixing this one up than the difference one in great shape will cost. The reason is becase your would pay depressed prices for someone else's maintence work, instead of new retail price for part you sadly just bought (in crappy condition) on your 'new' boat.

Always by the best boat you can.

 

[Nereussailor]

The list looks a lot like mine when I bought Nereus. I took the survey and made it into a to-do list by order of importance. It looks like a huge list, but it really doesn't sound that bad if you can do most or all of the work yourself. One thing you have to take into consideration is the list of extras that come with the boat. It looks like the PO picked up some of the stuff needed to fix some of the problems, but never got around to fixing them. That's a bonus. The new mast and rigging is also a big bonus
It also sounds like wiring is one of the biggest issues. I swear that I pulled 1000 feet of unused old wire out of my boat when I got it. Once it was out, it was just a matter of replacing what was needed. The breaker issue is easy. They're there, they just need some wires added for new circuits and some rewiring.
If you really want this boat, get it. Like others have said, you'll know if it's the boat for you. I was going into a broker and asking about boats that he knew were available. He didn't know of too many that were what I was looking for. As I was leaving, there was a H30 sitting in the yard right outside his office. I took one look at it and said,"That's what I'm looking for". It had a for sale sign on it so I took down the number and left. About 2 miles down the road, I thought, "I should call the number and at least ask about it". I did, and the owner was at the marina so I turned around to go check it out. After having the survey done, I bought it immediately. The survey was thorough so it made fixing everything easier.

 

[higgs]

If my recollection is correct, the boat is priced at 16k. As I read your survey synopsis I could not help thinking about my old Irwin 32 that the dealer whom I traded it to sold for 12K with a new set of sails and with proper wiring, fairly new instruments, rebuilt engine, etc. I think the price is too high for what you are gettting.

 

[centerline]

I LIKE the boat, and have since I first saw it.... the survey has not revealed any major or expensive problems....maintenance and fixing things is my life....visibly, the boat is clean, good looking and in order(exception, dodger), and there are many upgrades and extra features....

as has been relayed to me many times already, if i want a boat in perfect condition, pay the price and buy one in perfect condition.. I cant expect to get a diamond for a dollar....

I am not willing to pay a high dollar amount for my first relatively "big" boat (i know its not big, but relative to what ive owned in the past it is)....
with my skills and ambition for working on my boats, I am more likely to the cause the low value of this boat to rise in monetary value, than I would if I paid top dollar for a boat without problems... in my mind, this equates to a lower risk of losing my initial investment, and puts me in a relatively comfortable and well rigged boat at a very affordable cash outlay.

I know that, by default due to its size and onboard systems, its going to be a higher maintenance boat than what im used to... im fine with that. for me, tinkering on it and making it better, beats the heck out of laying about watching the tv....

I have another sea trial today, to run the motor for awhile, and double check the alternator output, the freshwater cooling system (it was found to be low during the survey, no overflow/expansion tank installed,)and the autohelm for proper function.


if these things all check out fine, Im pretty sure I know what im going to do...

for some people who are less mechanical, all these little problems could be completely overwhelming, but for someone like me, who doesnt want to pay very much for a decent looking boat, and is more than willing to tackle the many small things, I think they would be a fool to NOT take advantage of the situation....

 

[BigEasy]

Last week, you expressed major concerns about the hull blisters. What were the surveyor's findings and recommendations regarding the blister situation? Also, did you have a candid discussion with him regarding the type of repairs required and approximate cost?

IF you decide to purchase this boat, one additional thing that I think is absolutely necessary is to have a separate engine survey done. Most general surveys only include a cursory inspection of the engine. The surveyor will always include a disclaimer, stating that a more specific mechanical inspection be conducted to assess the condition of the engine. I would ask the surveyor for a recommendation for a diesel mechanic/surveyor who could perform compression tests, oil analysis, etc. prior to your final offer. Just because the engine is running today doesn't mean that there aren't underlying problems that could lead to an expensive overhaul or worse, total repower at a cost of $10,000. Unexpected expenses such as this could really put you "under water" on the value of your boat not to mention blowing your immediate budget.

One final thought. I know that you are a "do it yourself" guy like me. How much time do you have to perform all these repairs? From the list that you have published, it looks like you have two years of work ahead. I have had my boat for a bit over a year now; it is 7 years old and in was in good condition when I bought it. I can tell you that with my work schedule, I have spent more time with upgrades, repairs, preventive maintenance than I have sailed and I have more work to do! Are you prepared to forego sailing for the time and effort that will be required to put this Cal back in good shape?

 

[centerline]

If my recollection is correct, the boat is priced at 16k. As I read your survey synopsis I could not help thinking about my old Irwin 32 that the dealer whom I traded it to sold for 12K with a new set of sails and with proper wiring, fairly new instruments, rebuilt engine, etc. I think the price is too high for what you are gettting.

you could be right... I have received many replys like this.

here in the Pacific Northwest, everyone says if you want a nice boat, go elsewhere to buy it...south east especially, and we HAVE looked elsewhere and It seems there is a big regional price difference....

this may be because we dont have as many boat yards and large marinas to browse thru here like they do thruout the entire east and south east coasts... we have southern california, san francisco and seattle areas that have a good number to look about in...

so we can spend our money traveling the country looking at boats, possibly purchasing one, then having to pay to haul it or sail it here....

so how does one figure the cost of what we are paying for a boat.?... I figure it as the total amount that boat has cost me to get in my name and possession, and docked at the marina of my choice...

all things taken into consideration, for this area, I dont think the price could be considered unreasonable, but again, its only my opinion...

 

[Stu Jackson]

What engine is in the boat?

 

[centerline]

Last week, you expressed major concerns about the hull blisters. What were the surveyor's findings and recommendations regarding the blister situation? Also, did you have a candid discussion with him regarding the type of repairs required and approximate cost?

IF you decide to purchase this boat, one additional thing that I think is absolutely necessary is to have a separate engine survey done. Most general surveys only include a cursory inspection of the engine. The surveyor will always include a disclaimer, stating that a more specific mechanical inspection be conducted to assess the condition of the engine. I would ask the surveyor for a recommendation for a diesel mechanic/surveyor who could perform compression tests, oil analysis, etc. prior to your final offer. Just because the engine is running today doesn't mean that there aren't underlying problems that could lead to an expensive overhaul or worse, total repower at a cost of $10,000. Unexpected expenses such as this could really put you "under water" on the value of your boat not to mention blowing your immediate budget.

One final thought. I know that you are a "do it yourself" guy like me. How much time do you have to perform all these repairs? From the list that you have published, it looks like you have two years of work ahead. I have had my boat for a bit over a year now; it is 7 years old and in was in good condition when I bought it. I can tell you that with my work schedule, I have spent more time with upgrades, repairs, preventive maintenance than I have sailed and I have more work to do! Are you prepared to forego sailing for the time and effort that will be required to put this Cal back in good shape?

the blisters was a big concern for me, but upon checking different yards in this area, and finding out what to watch out for, and how the repairs are done, I found them to be less concerning... this is mainly due to the age of the hull and the blistered area being an area 3x4 feet, with nothing unreasonable outside of that area... for its age, it has very little problems and its a simple fix......
although, it could get worse at any time, but so could any hull....

for the engine mechanical and rebuild, when the time comes, I do that work myself....
it would be very unfortunate if the engine gave out withing the next two years, but not a catastrophic budget breaker..

I fully intend to have to put 4-6G over the next 3-4 years, into any boat i buy... its the normal way of feeding used boats...

as for time... I either have it or I dont, and if I dont it wont matter.... but you are correct, it looks like there is a several months of work ahead if I take possession.... but at a pace that is not frantic... I still have a nice 25 that I have no intention of selling and will be enjoying when we want to...

as i mentioned in my first thread about this boat, we want an affordable fixer upper that we can put in a decent condition over the next few years while we are still productive, tax paying citizens, so when the time is right we can cut loose.... I have no intention of letting the boat become a burden, but a very rewarding, affordable and worthwhile project.. only time knows how this will balance out...


Stu Jackson...."What engine is in the boat?"

Stu, its a westerbeke 30... rated at 25HP@2500rpm.....

 

[BigEasy]

Centerline,
Based on your comments, I believe you have found yourself a boat! I have to agree with you that if you start looking for boats in the Southeast it will cost a bundle in travel and transport expense to get a boat back to Oregon; close to $10K. I would try one last round of negotiations based on the surveyor's report. Just keep in mind that the seller likely wants to sell this boat at this stage of his ownership,more than you want to purchase it! Keep us apprised of the final results. Good luck, hope everything works out for you.

 

[FastOlson]

Stock engine for those was a Westerbeke with a V drive, IIRC.
A buyer needs to have the engine, trans, and V drive surveyed, as well.

For a comparison: a friend of mine recently sold a True Turn Key and super-equipped C&C 34 for 39.9K. It needed nothing and was very low priced for what it was. And what it was was a boat in rare and excellent condition like you seldom see on the market.

So, when you "buy low" just be prepared to double that investment in the first couple of years. Like your proposed Cal 3-34, the C&C 34 is also a well regarded Modern Classic.

It all gets back to condition. And then, condition!


Happy shopping.

Loren in PDX

 

[Stu Jackson]

Stu Jackson...."What engine is in the boat?"

Stu, its a westerbeke 30... rated at 25HP@2500rpm.....

cl, you should become intimately familiar with this: http://www.westerbeke.com/Products/OnlineManuals.aspx

You should also find and read every single Westerbeke service bulletin for your engine.

I'm sure many with these engines can help you out.

If you need help with the electrical system, just let us know.

 

[centerline]

cl, you should become intimately familiar with this: http://www.westerbeke.com/Products/OnlineManuals.aspx

You should also find and read every single Westerbeke service bulletin for your engine.

I'm sure many with these engines can help you out.

If you need help with the electrical system, just let us know.

Stu, Thank you... i quickly looked thru the selection of manuals... I cannot make heads or tails of where the one i would need is located... a westerbeke 30 15P/786A/D848B704... could you point me in the right direction?

 

[Stu Jackson]

cl, given your "limited" description of the engine in your boat, I would be hesitant to even begin to guess. You have the engine (or will shortly, congratulations), so I recommend becoming familiar with the website and take the computer down to the boat. Alternatively, you could do some more research on and with the engine serial number and perhaps narrow it down. I see only six lines there for 30-series engines. Better yet, call Westerbeke and ask them.