By the lee

[Clyde]

COLREG always applies

You need the COLREG to determine who is the "Stand On" vessel and who is the "Give Way" vessel.Merriam-Webster DictionaryDefinition of "Deem"; to come to think or judge."(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be "Deem" to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried..." Or in other words the wind direction across the other sailboat can be "Judged" to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried by visually looking at the other sailboat's mainsail to confirm the requirements of item (a). But item (a) still uses the word "Wind" throughout and sail is mention only once in item (b) to help identify wind direction. If "Wind" direction wasn't the main rule, why keep listing it as a requirement in item (a)? You can tell what tack a sailboat is sailing by her sails and her heel in most cases, but there is always an exception. Normally when "Running" you do not sail Directly Down Wind (DDW) with the wind directly off your stern, you are "Running" with the wind off either the port or starboard rear quarter. In the example stated in the earlier post, the two sailboats are running with the boom on the starboard side or on a port tack with windward being on the port rear quarter of the vessel. When one of the sailboats goes to "Sailing by the lee" the wind is now on the same side the mainsail is on, the starboard rear quarter. The mainsail is still showing a port tack with the boom on the starboard side. The sailboat "Sailing by the lee" with the windward side now on the starboard side of the vessel is the "Stand On" vessel and the other vessel with the wind off the port becomes the "Give Way" vessel. Since the wind is not on the same side for both vessels even though they both show a port tack, windward and leeward does not apply when the wind is not on the same side for both vessels.Fair Winds,Clyde

 

[Chris Burti]

Webster is not controlling.

The definition of 'deemed' is much stronger when used in statutes and regulations compared to the general usage defined in Webster's (I suggest you consider referring to Black's Law dictionary). In this context its meaning is more in the nature of 'construed'. While it is true that the dierection of the wind determines the respective responsibilites of the vessels, the direction of wind is definitionally determined by the boom under the regulation.When the booms are on the same side and running generally downwind (the facts of the original inquiry), the rules pertaining to overtaking vessels as modified by navigaional restrictions should apply. Rule 13;a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. (b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights. (c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly. (d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear. Regards,

 

[joe]

HELP!!! Alan (or any other racer)

Can you provide some specific examples, under the Rules of Racing, where a boat might gain a tactical advantage when sailing by the lee?  Regarding overtaking vessels and ColRegs, it is my understanding that the overtaking boat is required to stay clear of the stand on vessel when passing. Conversely, the stand on boat is required to maintain its course after the two have agreed which side the overtaking boat will pass. You know, like blasting the horn. My limited knowledge suggests that this is not a common racing tactic. My curiousity concerns the tactics of sailing by the lee in a RACING scenario.

 

[Clyde]

No one said anything about overtaking

Two sailboats are "Running" on port tack sailing nearly abeam of each other, the overtaking COLREG rule 13 doesn’t apply. The "Windward" side is port since the mainsail is on the starboard side of the sailboats and the "Leeward" side is starboard. Since they are sailing on the same tack, the sailboat on the port side is the "Windward" vessel and the sailboat on the starboard side is the "Leeward" vessel. The "Windward" sailboat Gybe to a starboard tack, giving adequate maneuvering room to the leeward sailboat, the mainsail is now on the port side and he becomes the "Stand On" vessel and the "Leeward" sailboat becomes the "Give Way" vessel, since he still sailing on a port tack. If the "Windward" sailboat doesn’t Gybe but "Sails by the lee" with the wind on the same side of the mainsail, the starboard side, the wind direction on both sailboat are not the same. Rule 12 does not account for "Sailing by the lee" where the wind and mainsail can be on the same side. In the racing rules they specifically define "Sailing by the lee" as being under "Leeward and Windward"."Leeward and Windward -- A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat."Fair Winds,Clyde

 

[Alan]

Racing Rules 01-04

OK lets settle this. COLREG's and the Racing Rules do not disagree with eachother. That said, COLREG's were written as rules of the road. Racing is governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS), they are the bible. The Racing Rules cover all the possibilities of two boats meeting, crossing and passing.Now with regard to the questions at hand.Joe,(a) tactical advantage sailing by the lee: example, 2 boats running and sailing parallel courses. One on port the other sailing by the lee on stbd. The stbd tack boat has rights over the port tacker who must keep clear. If they are within 2 boat lengths, stbd cannot sail BELOW proper course. Sailing a proper course does not mean directly to the leeward mark. Therefore the stbd tacker can sail low of the mark and keep the port boat from falling off. The port tacker must either wait till stbd changes course or go astern of the other boat at which point he must jibe and become windward and again must keep clear. Now the stbd boat becomes leeward boat and can force the windward boat to stay clear again. This tactic is not, however without risk, but can be used very effectivly(b) With regard to overtaking: while running, the boat ahead cannot sail below her proper course while the overtaking boat is within 2 lengths and leeward, other than that she can sail whatever course she pleases without regard for the other boat.

 

[Alan]

Clyde you've most of it right

But sailing on stbd by the lee is a stbd tack and therefore has rights over port regardless of the apparent wind on each boat. There is no problem with COLREG's which states that port must stay clear of stbd.The apparent wind direction has nothing to do with defining what tack you are on. The side the main is carried on does.

 

[Alan]

Joe

I just wanted to clear up one small technicality. In an earlier post you said, "Then it's the position of the boom that determines which tack you're on.” That’s almost true, it’s the side that the main is carried on. I'm splitting hairs here only because you can be sailing on say stbd tack and have the boom to weather. In your definition that would put you on port tack.

 

[joe]

Great lesson... thanks

Alan... thank you for a terrific explanation. Clyde and Chris, you guys really know your stuff... you have my gratitude also... I'll need to read the last few posts a few more times for it to sink in but I really feel like I've learned something here. Thanks again, gentlemen.

 

[Chris Burti]

Alan/Clyde

One technical point to make and an honest question.Under colregs, two boats while running are under the rules pertaining to overtaking vessels, particularly 13(d) unless you want to force a hypothetical to the extreme by stating they left port on parallel courses and stayed that way. This is one area that racing rules vary from colregs (for good reason). Racing rules alter the responsibilities after lapping colregs dfon't. They can be accurately said to not conflict with colregs because both skippers are ultimately charged with the responsiblilty of avoiding a collision (if possible) regardless of right of way under both sets of rules and racing rules further require observance of colregs.On the question to Alan. Your point on semantic accuracy makes sense when sailing close hauled. My question is, can you really carry the boom to weather and the main to lee while running? Obviously, by my earlier comments on the hazards of sailing by the lee, I am not likely to ever intentionally have the boom to weather with the main to lee while running. But, I am curious as to whether this is actually feasable or merely theoretically possible.Best Regards,

 

[Alan]

Chris, (by the way, I like this exchange)

..with regard to: (a) overtaking under Colreg's, the overtaking boat is the give way boat and must stay clear while passing until clear ahead and the stand on boat must maintain course so as not to interfere with the passing vessel; under RRS, the leeward boat passing within 2 boat lengths of a windward boat cannot luff (come up)until clear ahead and the windward boat being passed cannot come down below her proper course. This is effectively the same rule but stated differently. (b)carrying the boom to weather while running; simply put, no it is neither feasable nor possible. While sailing closehauled there are times when it is to your advantage to have the boom to the weather side of the center line of the boat. If you were to have the boom past the center line while sailing by the lee the sail would jibe, in fact it would jibe long before you would get to center.

 

[Chris Burti]

Thanks and a distinction.

I was with you on windward sailing, but was unsure if you meant running also. I suspected that was the case on the boom downwind, but couldn't disagree as I never have tried it.The rules and regs are similar but the regs make no distinction of windward or leeward, close or far. The collision avoidance provision of the rules should produce the same results. None the less, if a collision were to occur, you could win in the protest room and lose in Amiralty Court. 'Look but don't touch'Best regards,

 

[Bob]

I think it is possible, Alan,

to run with the boom to weather - in fact, that is what sailing by-the-lee is.

 

[Alan]

Bob, you may be right..

After rereading Chris' question, I realize that sailing by the lee IS carrying the boom to weather but in order to have the main to leeward and the boom to weather you would have to have jibed the main and carried the boom over square, which makes absolutly no sense. So I stand by my original statement that it at least is not feasable although possible.

 

[Dan McGuire]

Interesting

It is an interesting disucssion. The next time I see another sailboat on my lake, it might actually be useful. I envy the rest of you.

 

[John Dawson]

Its not that complicated *O

Going straight downwind, the stern is pointing to the wind and the main can be on either side. Technically, whatever side the boom and sail are on is leeward. If you turn the boat toward that side (leeward-main-boom side), it soon gybes. But the first 10 or 15 degrees, nothing happens until the wind gets behind the sail and causes a gybe. Sailing by the lee is staying within that small angle of wind before the main will gybe. The main, boom and wind (barely) are all on the same side of the boat. Often a preventer is used to make this more possible.Occasionally its useful in navigating close quarters or keeping the headsail full, but it has large implications for racing as the discussion shows.

 

[Bob]

The original question

was inspired by an observation that over a small angle it is possible to sail by the lee and to have air moving conventionally over the headsail at the same time (generating 'lift', not drag). Assume the mast is the origin in this simplified example: boat is heading 000 degrees. Main is sheeted (and prevented) to port at 225 degrees. Wind is blowing from the stern port quarter, from 215 degrees. If the jib is sheeted sufficiently free, the wind strikes its luff before striking any other part, and bends around it until exiting its leech. Comments?

 

[John Dawson]

And your point is?

What is the point of having the main sheeted upwind at that great an angle, fighting a gybe? Why not bring the main across and get it functioning too, instead of blanketing the jib? 215 is a good broad reach.The times I get on the lee side, I'm usually zigzagging around trying to funnel wind from the main into the jib to keep it wing 'n wing.