Built in bouyancy/flotation
- Thread starter greg_m
- Start date
@Gene Neill on the second photo: any idea on the circumstances that is keeping her on her side? or was that just the magic snapshot at the exact moment before she righted? wicked curious......
I don't have much experience sailing, @pclarksurf. But I did notice both those boats appear to have tight mainsail sheets. In my very first uneducated, inexperienced, solo sail in a little fiberglass dinghy (with no flotation) on Lake Arrowhead, I was out in the middle of the lake when I was slammed by a gust that hit me over the port. I was seated on the port side facing starboard and all of a sudden my beautiful mountain view turned to lake water. I panicked and let go of the tiller AND the main sheet and dove for the bottom of the boat. It righted immediately.
Just as my heart rate normalized and I was tightening the main sheet, A gust hit me from the starboard side and my view turned to blue sky. I repeated the same maneuver with the same result.
When I took a sailing class in '99, the first thing they had us students do was turtle the self-bailing Holder 14. First step to righting the boat was to uncleat the mainsheet if not already done. Next step was to go stand on the centerboard to lift the mast and start righting the boat.
If the main and jib are still tight, the wind may be able to keep the C-22 on edge. The second pic looks like the port vents are taking on water, but that may just be a coincidence. My guess is the boat just went over. I'm puzzled that both skippers are standing up. Maybe they are trying to close the companionways. I'd be freeing the main and jib sheets and get to the keel if it didn't start righting. But maybe more experienced sailors would advise otherwise.
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Great thread. I had no idea about the volcano cap/bung. I'll have to look down in the tube and see what is what.
@greg_m Good info on you plans. When I asked, I looked at sat maps of the area, and saw photos that show some members of the Theewater Sports Club had Jaguar 22s. I figured it was there or False Bay.
From what I have read of the coastal conditions there, I'd also consider some added floatation. Especially so, since you are already cutting into the interior liner. 53 ft3 (1.5 m3) seems like a lot of foam, but the gap between the hull and interior liner may cover a far amount of that. Some conduit and specific areas with voids may be workable.
I'd love to see how this works out if you tackle it.
What made you choose the C22 ? Trailerability ? Price ? I assumed that your coast would need a more sea capable boat like the 22 Pandora International. (one nice one was for sale here 31000 ZAR ($3000 CAD) a couple weeks ago)
@greg_m Good info on you plans. When I asked, I looked at sat maps of the area, and saw photos that show some members of the Theewater Sports Club had Jaguar 22s. I figured it was there or False Bay.
From what I have read of the coastal conditions there, I'd also consider some added floatation. Especially so, since you are already cutting into the interior liner. 53 ft3 (1.5 m3) seems like a lot of foam, but the gap between the hull and interior liner may cover a far amount of that. Some conduit and specific areas with voids may be workable.
I'd love to see how this works out if you tackle it.
What made you choose the C22 ? Trailerability ? Price ? I assumed that your coast would need a more sea capable boat like the 22 Pandora International. (one nice one was for sale here 31000 ZAR ($3000 CAD) a couple weeks ago)
I'd say someone got lucky with the timing of the photo. We got knocked down like that once, and it SEEMED like it took an hour for the boat to right herself, but it was probably five seconds or less in reality. We both found ourselves standing side by side on the now-horizontal side of the opposite bench, just like in the pics ... I won't say frozen, but definitely sort of stupefied, watching water pouring over the coaming, submerging the jib winch. Everything was in slow motion. I SHOULD have been scrambling up over the rail to go stand on the keel or something, but things got normal before the thought even occurred to me.
My buddy was somewhere forward (don't know where exactly, I was transfixed by all that water) trying not to lose his beer. He actually did succeed in saving it, and was justifiably quite proud.
The Admiral laid down some new rules regarding PFD's after that. LOL
So just kind of curious here.....whats the best way for each of this guys to right his boat? If he moves out (towards the top of the mast) in any way, I would assume the weight shift would turtle the boat. Is there any way to climb up on the high side without shifting weight in the wrong direction?
I am assuming the keel is still extended. If the skipper left the boat (not advised as neither of these guys are wearing a PFD) would the boat right itself? If this were my Sunfish, I'd leave the boat, swim around and climb up on the keel and the boat would come right up.
What kind of options do these guys really have? Do they release the main and jib sheets and just wait for the boat to right itself? Really curious......
Mike
I am assuming the keel is still extended. If the skipper left the boat (not advised as neither of these guys are wearing a PFD) would the boat right itself? If this were my Sunfish, I'd leave the boat, swim around and climb up on the keel and the boat would come right up.
What kind of options do these guys really have? Do they release the main and jib sheets and just wait for the boat to right itself? Really curious......
Mike
Gene, that's hilarious!
@Lafayette Mike - from what I recall of my 18 years ago course, the righting of the boat should be discussed with crew beforehand. On self bailing boats, it should be practiced. It was a huge relief to know you could recover a turtled boat and gave me a lot more confidence in sailing that Holder 14. If I remember right, crew safety is first. The main concern on the Holder was that your crew didn't end up under the sails as the boat turtled. Nothing like getting pushed under and trying to find your way out from under a downward moving sail. Once crew was clear, and sheets released, you bailed out over the stern, swam around and got on the hull, grabbed the centerboard (which is straight up in the air) and standing on the hull, lean back to try to get the centerboard flat on the water. If you were too light, both could get on hull and centerboard. If that didn't work, you could try to swing the boat around so the mast would come up upwind and the wind through the sails could help bring the boat up. My head hurts trying to remember back that far.
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@Sacto Dave Your memory is definitely not lacking. You about covered it.
The major thing with a C22 compared to a small daysailer, is freeboard. Unless that stern ladder is down, it would be difficult if not impossible to pull yourself aboard, once she is upright.
With a keelboat you spill the wind from the sails, and as long as you don't get waves that push her over further before she can right herself, she should come up.
If she turns upside down, and/or the keel swings into the hull, she is not coming back over, unless you weigh as much as an elephant.
I've also done it with another person on a 18ft catamaran, but it's MUCH harder, and you are praying that the boat doesn't turn upside down.
In either case, if one or both crew hang on the high side of the hull for too long, the boat can turn upside down.
The sail itself does give a bit of help in trying to keep the hull from turning completely upside down, for a short period of time.
But, keep in mind that even a small ballasted boat like a C22 has a lot of weight in that keel. She is MUCH less likely to turn over, than a dinghy is, considering the crew weight is possibly the same.
I wonder if you could do it just like a dinghy, and avoid getting wet, by simply climbing onto the hull/keel as the boat lays on her side, and climb back in as she comes up ? LOL Maybe @Gene Neill can test it for us.
Someone out there can hopefully chime in with the stability curve and AVS numbers.
The major thing with a C22 compared to a small daysailer, is freeboard. Unless that stern ladder is down, it would be difficult if not impossible to pull yourself aboard, once she is upright.
With a keelboat you spill the wind from the sails, and as long as you don't get waves that push her over further before she can right herself, she should come up.
If she turns upside down, and/or the keel swings into the hull, she is not coming back over, unless you weigh as much as an elephant.
MOST times have I have dumped small dinghy sailboats, due to pushing the limits, I have been able to simply climb up onto the high side, stand on the keel, and assist it in coming upright.. Without the boat flipping completely. That's with 2 people on a un-ballasted boat around 16ish feet, with the hull floating high on the water, and the mast sloped down towards the water.
I've also done it with another person on a 18ft catamaran, but it's MUCH harder, and you are praying that the boat doesn't turn upside down.
In either case, if one or both crew hang on the high side of the hull for too long, the boat can turn upside down.
The sail itself does give a bit of help in trying to keep the hull from turning completely upside down, for a short period of time.
But, keep in mind that even a small ballasted boat like a C22 has a lot of weight in that keel. She is MUCH less likely to turn over, than a dinghy is, considering the crew weight is possibly the same.
I wonder if you could do it just like a dinghy, and avoid getting wet, by simply climbing onto the hull/keel as the boat lays on her side, and climb back in as she comes up ? LOL Maybe @Gene Neill can test it for us.
Someone out there can hopefully chime in with the stability curve and AVS numbers.
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Yeah baby!I wonder if you could do it just like a dinghy, and avoid getting wet, by simply climbing onto the hull/keel as the boat lays on her side, and climb back in as she comes up ? LOL Maybe @Gene Neill can test it for us.
Thank you, @Leeward Rail! Well, I can vouch for the self righting nature of the C-22. Four years ago, I sailed a rental for the first time at Lake Tahoe in 28 MPH winds.
To make matters a bit more complicated, I didn't bother figuring out how the main sheet worked. My big plan was to simply sail upwind to slow down. We sailed for an hour without adjusting the main. I did have an experienced sailor on the jib, but on one of my last tacks we got laid over. While the water never neared the rail, we were heeled over enough to get the rudder out of the water. All eyes were on me as I realized I had no control. She eventually came back up and I had a new appreciation for the tall sides (freeboard?) and heavy keel of the C-22.
To make matters a bit more complicated, I didn't bother figuring out how the main sheet worked. My big plan was to simply sail upwind to slow down. We sailed for an hour without adjusting the main. I did have an experienced sailor on the jib, but on one of my last tacks we got laid over. While the water never neared the rail, we were heeled over enough to get the rudder out of the water. All eyes were on me as I realized I had no control. She eventually came back up and I had a new appreciation for the tall sides (freeboard?) and heavy keel of the C-22.
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Just for some "drinking coffee before bed" curiosity... I tried do an Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS) calculation for a Swing keel C22 based on a guesstimate of hull draft (draft of the hull - keel), and the numbers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_22 but the result was obviously wrong. Maybe I need tea, or sleep, instead.
Does anyone know if Catalina has published a righting moment graph for the boat with keel lifted as well as with keel extended? My take on this would be that a designer would not design and allow to be manufactured for sale to the worlds populations without it being safe to use.Just for some "drinking coffee before bed" curiosity... I tried do an Angle of Vanishing Stability (AVS) calculation for a Swing keel C22 based on a guesstimate of hull draft (draft of the hull - keel), and the numbers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_22 but the result was obviously wrong. Maybe I need tea, or sleep, instead.
Surely the righting moment with the keel up should be sufficient to at least prevent the boat "dipping" the mast into the water with the sail having spilled most of the wind. Another thought is the weight distribution should then cause the boat to round up into the wind.
Most of the knockdown "accidents" seem to have occurred where the boat was over powered in big sea's due to racing bravado, alcohol brovado or plain lack of knowledge.
I learned to sail on a Dabchick dinghy single handed which my Dad built from wood for me when I was around 8 years old! I quickly learned to let go the main sheet or get wet in heavy winds! Its basically a big surfboard with a mast on it! I think that all sailing training should start with a few hours in a dinghy sailing boat. That would be a law if I had my way. I later progressed to a Laser 1 dinghy at about 12 y/o and later onto what I know as a GP 14 (a red bell shape emblem on the sail). A heavy 14 foot dingy that I did not have the weight to right after capsize so my mother was my crew... hope she does not take that the wrong way! Again sail control was paramount and competitive racing at National club levels was a very steep learning curve. We used to race alongside the Enterprise dinghies as similar in class but they were much more lightly constructed than our heavy GP14.
Sail control and weight distribution... you can only really learn that in a small sailing boat.
@greg_m Good info on you plans. When I asked, I looked at sat maps of the area, and saw photos that show some members of the Theewater Sports Club had Jaguar 22s. I figured it was there or False Bay.
From what I have read of the coastal conditions there, I'd also consider some added floatation. Especially so, since you are already cutting into the interior liner. 53 ft3 (1.5 m3) seems like a lot of foam, but the gap between the hull and interior liner may cover a far amount of that. Some conduit and specific areas with voids may be workable.
I'd love to see how this works out if you tackle it.
What made you choose the C22 ? Trailerability ? Price ? I assumed that your coast would need a more sea capable boat like the 22 Pandora International. (one nice one was for sale here 31000 ZAR ($3000 CAD) a couple weeks ago)[/QUOTE]
Hi Leeward - I chose a trailer sailer over a fixed keel boat simply due to financial sustainability on my side. No fixed marina costs, I can launch at public ramps so don't even need a club membership for that, suffocating Regulations surrounding larger boats, simple maintenance is cheaper, fittings, rigging, sails are all smaller and cheaper. I did have several choices based on the length of space in my yard in which to park the boat. Big factor was simply the initial cash purchase cost versus what I will get out of it. I very much liked the swing keel shallow draft for shallow water usage, launching facilities are mostly ramps into the water and I wanted a boat large enough to be comfortable, small enough to be easy to own. Shooo... thats a lot of reasons. I was actually looking for a project boat but if I'm honest I think it has turned into way more than what I had initially thought... A lick of paint here, a polish there, a new roap here and Bob's your Uncly we can go sailing... sadly though it has been a year so far in restoration time and effort.
Theewaterskloof Dam has dropped around 13 meters in height due to lack of rains over the past two years or so. So actual sailing water surface area is way small as well as a lot of it is now considered dangerous because of tree stumps still sticking out of the ground under the water. Fantastic water sailing spot when the dam is full but actually sailing on the dam has become a dinghy experience currently.
Trailering was the main thing. There are a number of seawater sailing spot within a radius of 250klm from my house which is perfect for the long weekend getaway.
My wife is also not actually a keen sailer so did not want to get into big costly boat only to realise I would be doing it alone. So the road trip, weekend away thing is what she likes and if I can drag a boat around thats easy to operate and easy to pack away then bonus!
I only saw one Jag 22 fixed keel boat at Theewaterskloof Dam when I was there last! Very neglected and forlorn looking too
From what I have read of the coastal conditions there, I'd also consider some added floatation. Especially so, since you are already cutting into the interior liner. 53 ft3 (1.5 m3) seems like a lot of foam, but the gap between the hull and interior liner may cover a far amount of that. Some conduit and specific areas with voids may be workable.
I'd love to see how this works out if you tackle it.
What made you choose the C22 ? Trailerability ? Price ? I assumed that your coast would need a more sea capable boat like the 22 Pandora International. (one nice one was for sale here 31000 ZAR ($3000 CAD) a couple weeks ago)[/QUOTE]
Hi Leeward - I chose a trailer sailer over a fixed keel boat simply due to financial sustainability on my side. No fixed marina costs, I can launch at public ramps so don't even need a club membership for that, suffocating Regulations surrounding larger boats, simple maintenance is cheaper, fittings, rigging, sails are all smaller and cheaper. I did have several choices based on the length of space in my yard in which to park the boat. Big factor was simply the initial cash purchase cost versus what I will get out of it. I very much liked the swing keel shallow draft for shallow water usage, launching facilities are mostly ramps into the water and I wanted a boat large enough to be comfortable, small enough to be easy to own. Shooo... thats a lot of reasons. I was actually looking for a project boat but if I'm honest I think it has turned into way more than what I had initially thought... A lick of paint here, a polish there, a new roap here and Bob's your Uncly we can go sailing... sadly though it has been a year so far in restoration time and effort.
Theewaterskloof Dam has dropped around 13 meters in height due to lack of rains over the past two years or so. So actual sailing water surface area is way small as well as a lot of it is now considered dangerous because of tree stumps still sticking out of the ground under the water. Fantastic water sailing spot when the dam is full but actually sailing on the dam has become a dinghy experience currently.
Trailering was the main thing. There are a number of seawater sailing spot within a radius of 250klm from my house which is perfect for the long weekend getaway.
My wife is also not actually a keen sailer so did not want to get into big costly boat only to realise I would be doing it alone. So the road trip, weekend away thing is what she likes and if I can drag a boat around thats easy to operate and easy to pack away then bonus!
I only saw one Jag 22 fixed keel boat at Theewaterskloof Dam when I was there last! Very neglected and forlorn looking too
I have a '76 with the flotation foam. I don't like it, but have yet to sail this boat. I don't like it because is has become very porous after this long. It has become wet when I don't keep the scuppers clear, and it stinks. When I do have to pump the hull, water will slowly reappear over the next few days as it leaks out of the foam that I am told DOES NOT absorb water. When I ask advise about removing the foam, most advised me to just leave it. Considering how long I "THINK" about stuff before I actually do anything, the foam is still in the boat. Some may call my time to think by another less positive term. While watching one of the famous dvds from Catalina Direct, Trim pointed out some nasty looking foam that was installed as an option at the factory. He said that it has deteriorated and should be removed. Now I have to think some more. I again am asking for advise, should I remove this drippy, smelly foam or leave it? If I ever do get to put this boat in the water, I would like for it to smell pleasant. I am not really worried about sinking. I would especially like to hear from others who have dealt with this foam. As for the OP, I don't think that your new installation will exhibit these same problems as my 40 year old foam is showing.
You already know the answer. I think whoever said "just leave it" was afraid you were gonna ask them to help remove it.
That one pic of the guy hanging on is from the Catalina Org. mag cover.
Since then, I've seen some strange things on my lake (Pymatuning). but not worried about flotation. We do have our life vests though and we do sail carefully. and the lake is generally no deeper than about an average of 20 ft...so is she sinks, I will find her. Today, I have to drop the mast at the dock because the starboard angled fin on my Windex is BENT UP at about a 45 deg angle. I'm not sure how this happened but I blame the seagulls.
With my most erudite observation on a locking screw stopping the possibility of the 550 lb keel dangling about....Nopey.
I've seen pics of the locking screw bending and tearing a curved slot into the keel.
Some would think that it may help in heavy seas but I believe that you'd have to have the boat pitch up about 40 degrees for the keel to start swinging. If the boat is in that sort of seas, I'd not be at ease about my future. She's good for about 6 ft waves if you're lucky but she's also not a heavy seas hull and will slap down hard after going over those waves.