Broken swing-keep cable + other swing keel questions

[Gillingham]

Hi Catalina 22 Owners,

We have a Catalina 22 (a Jaguar 22 here in the UK) from around 1980 (could be earlier- mid-late 70s) which we enjoyed very much this summer - until the cable for the swing-keel broke.

We continued to enjoy sailing the boat, but it now has to be taken out of the water for the winter, and we have a few concerns.

Several questions:
- In doing research, I was surprised to read stories of boats dropping their keel completely - can this actually happen on a Catalina 22? Is it physically possible?
- If it can happen, how can we check it - there is a large bolt (or ball?) at the front on which it pivots I understand. Is there any way to inspect this or any part of the keel while the boat is in the water?
- I see that there is a small square panel inside the boat around where the front of the keel could be - is this an inspection hatch? It has four screws so that seems likely...
- Even if we do inspect the front of the keel, how would we know if it is safe or not? And what should we look for?
- Then comes the cable, as I mentioned this snapped but appears to not have done any damage, although the keel is now permanently down. We need to take it out of the water and put it on it's yard trailor- it usually sits very low on its yard trailor with the keel in the up position. We are not sure if it was actually resting on the keel before - could that be? Presumably that would not be good... it also had wooden blocks around it, so they could have been taking most of the weight. (we have only owned it for one season so this will be the first time that we take it out of the water)
- So simply asked, as we take it out of the water, how do we manage the fact that the keel is down rather than up?
- And then next question is how do we repair the broken cable once it is out? (it is broken at the keel itself, ie: the cable is all inside the boat.)

Any help with any of the above would be much appreciated!

Stirling

 

[CloudDiver]

Stirling,
The year of your boat would be helpful. There should be a stainless identification plate just under the tiller, otherwise it should be on your ownership documents.
With that said, the Jaguar 22 was built under license in the UK (to my knowledge) so I'm not sure what if any changes were made in the manufacture process vs the Catalina factory built hull in the U.S.
- Keels only fall off completely when maintenance is neglected and the bolts that hold the keel hangers either back out or break off.
- You can't inspect the swing keel from inside the hull while in the water. Best is to pull it out, otherwise you have to snorkel and hold your breath or Scuba to get a good look (with a bright underwater torch).
- Not sure what the square panel is you speak of, my boat does not have that. This could be a difference between US and UK versions. Take a pic of it and post it here if you can, I'm very interested to see what that might be. If it is a part of the Inner (cabin) liner there should be no issue with unscrewing it and having a look. If it is part of the primary hull and below the water line don't open it!
- When inspecting the keel (out of the water) you are looking at the bronze keel hangers themselves. Each will have 2 stainless bolts that hold them up into a recess in the hull. If they are loose they need to be tightened. A complete keel service includes removing them and taking the keel down. This is the only way to get a good look at the keel pin which is a 1 inch (about 22 mm) diameter bronze pin. You want to make sure the pin does not have uneven wear (deep gouge), also that the hole through the keel isn't misshapen into something like an oval. You can place a short length of stainless tube into the hole (called a keel pin bushing, to reduce wear). When everything checks out and you have refurbished your keel if need and applied fresh anti-foul paint you reattach the keel with NEW bolts and applying the correct torque, roughly 20 foot pounds. If you want to see what all this looks like there are plenty of pictures in my Resto thread; http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/restoration-of-1981-c-22-swing-keel-10580.166613/ Stingy Sailor also has an extensive article on keel restoration and servicing on his website, Stingysailor.com
- Swing keel boat (of any make) should not rest on their keels. If it was out of the water the boat stands were holding the weight of the hull where the blocks should just have protecting the bottom edge of the keel from any damage by sitting on the ground.
- My keel was stuck down when I craned out of the water. Basically you just have to land the keel end on wherever it is supposed to come to rest on the stand and allow the boats weight to fold up the keel as the crane lowers it. BE SURE the keel lock down bolt is LOOSENED!
- Installing a new keel cable is very simple once the boat is out of the water. It only takes a few minutes and requires very few basic hand tools.

 

[Gillingham]

Hi CloudDiver
Thanks so much for your quick response.
We have done some more research, and here are a few more questions:
- We do not have a crane at our yacht club, only a slip way. Boats are usually taken out with the tide, the trolley is put in the water, the boat is floated on, and as the tide goes out the boat sinks down into its trolley. Do you think that we can use this method taking into account that the keel is down and will need to fold up as the tide goes out? There is a cross-bar in the middle of the trolley, which the keel should rest on...
- Next step will then be to replace the cable. It seems that we can jack up the back of the boat to do this, or both front and back, and in any case it does not seem that it needs to be very high up. But where can we get a replacement cable and fitting? The cable snapped at the connection with the keel.
- Most importantly, I am now a bit worried about the hinge at the front of the keel. We can inspect the bolts... but what about the hole in the keel (which seems to wear through) and the bolt supporting the keel? See the attached article that we found... could this happen to our keel? (the boat is 30+ years old...) and how can we check the status of the hole in the keel - without taking the whole keel off? (see article attached...)

 

[CloudDiver]

Without a crane the process is going to be very difficult using the trolley and tide. The trolley will have to be submerged as far down the slip way as possible at high tide meaning it will be disconnected from the tow vehicle. With the keel stuck down you might not get very close to being over the top of the trolley when the keel hits bottom. In such case a long line may have to connected at the bow eye and tied off to a vehicle up the slip way which would have to tow the hull closer, dragging the keel along the bottom but effectively forcing it to fold up at least partially. You'd want to stop once the hull is over the top of the trolley and the keel edge touching the cross bar where it will rest. You'd need to be just slightly aft of the final resting place on the trolley to account for forward movement as the keel folds up. Be aware that if there is excessive marine growth on the keel and hull this could prevent the keel from wanting to fold easily, building force as the tide goes out, and then suddenly give way once enough force is applied. This will be a long process and require several people, at two on shore to operate the tow vehicle and handle lines as well as two or more people in the water with snorkel or scuba gear. Plus it will take as much time as the tide going from high to slack-water. In any case be careful of the bottom conditions, if is a concrete slipway you should have no worries but a mud bottom could end up having the trolley and tow vehicle bogged down.
Worst case, it might be required to actually remove the keel in the water. This would require a great deal of preparation and calculation... what we Yanks call "Redneck Engineering". I wouldn't recommend it without having two scuba divers and some other lifting equipment and a truck to retrieve the keel.
A new keel cable can be made by any qualified rigger, its just a length of wire with swaged fork fitting on the end. Having the old one even if broken can be used to verify the size wire and overall length.
There is no way to check the condition of the keel pin or the condition of the hole through the keel without removing the keel completely. Be prepared for the possibility of expensive repair work. If you have a mate that is a qualified welder with his own home welding equipment you might be able to accomplish everything for very little in cost.
You don't need to jack up the boat at all to replace the keel cable, but you will to remove and service the keel as a whole. Be prepared to do that one way or the other.

 

[CloudDiver]

This is a link to the most popular US Catalina parts seller. This is what the keel cable looks like;
https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/1042/keel-cable-assembly-c-22.cfm

I wouldn't hurt to get a shipping quote from them, but this can be made by any marine rigger as the parts are common to all sailboats.

 

[Gene Neill]

With the help of a diver, you could replace that lifting cable in the water almost as easily as on land. I'd do it for you myself, but it's a long drive to the UK from here.

 

[CloudDiver]

With the help of a diver, you could replace that lifting cable in the water almost as easily as on land. I'd do it for you myself, but it's a long drive to the UK from here.

OMG... I can't believe I didn't think of that! Jeeze that would be SOOOO much easier than all the crap I just posted above!!! LOL

 

[Thomas Martin]

FYI: For the trailering Catalina 22 sailors.
I was able to replace both the lifting cable and two broken keel bolts utilizing some leverage, the trailer and 2 hydraulic jacks.
This week I found, while cleaning the bottom that where two bolt heads should be, there were two empty holes. Determining that the problem was sheared 5/16 bolts on one side of the keel hangar. When I jacked up the keel I was able to loosen both the remaining bolts on the opposite side with my fingers. Geesh!!!! I googled and was frightened by the pictures and descriptions of what others had gone through to replace broken bolts including for the most part hoisting (which I don't have the facilities for) and dropping the keel in some kind of home made cradle. In learning the overall design of the keel hangar it seemed to me it should be accessible if I could just get the front of the keel to lower maybe 6-8 inches.
I slacked off the keel cable a little, keel still supported on the trailer. Jacked up the front of the trailer and put jacks on either side of the trailer frame to hold it. This lowered the back of the boat which I then jacked up with a hydraulic jack with a 4x4 crossways to protect the hull. I also secured the trailer to the boat with rope from the winch to the frame, both sides to keep the boat from tipping. It stretched enough for the boat to separate from the trailer. Then I completely deflated the trailer tires which allowed the back of the keel to lower maybe 4-5 inches from keel well.
I believe the back of the keel against the hull kept the front of the keel from lowering so raising the boat slightly from the back, allowed the front of the keel to drop. Anyway, only need just enough to get the keel hangar part so it can be separated from the keel pivot pin.
I drilled the broken bolts with a 1/8th" drill, tapped the broken bolt extractor in and turned them out with little fuss.
I was surprised at the decent condition of the keel pivot hole in the keel and there was no wear at all in the pivot pin.
I put everything back together with two new bolts, lock washers with super strength loc tite. Will make it a habit to check those bolts each spring. Also replaced cable using hydraulic jacks and leverage as well. Questions can be directed to me:
corkie111@gmail.com

 

[$tingy Sailor]

Good on ya for fixing it in short order! Just be very careful how much you torque those bolts. They're rated for 12 ft.lb. but many owners give them 15 or 20. More than that is inviting breakage.

 

[CaptDon01]

Not sure if the C-22's produced in England and Australia have the same swing keel and hanger assembly as the US manufactured boats. Would be interesting to know. Maybe they have the original C-22 through-bolt design, or the same hanger and weldment design? Just wondering....

Don

 

[CloudDiver]

I'm glad you were able to get it done with little fuss... Most people with broken bolts have no such luck. What do you mean by 'super strength' Loc-Tite? Do you mean 'RED' Loc-Tite? Red is bad idea on any bolt less than 3/8". For almost any application on a sailboat 'Blue' or medium strength is more than adequate, especially when there are lock washers as well. I doubt that will have any issues with those bolts becoming loose now, but you have to understand that trying to ever get them out will require heating to to 325 degrees F. If you try to loose them without 'melting' red loc-tite they will break off.

 

[Thomas Martin]

Broken swing keel wire or broken keel bolts on trailered Catalina 22???
Contact me, no big deal.....corkie111@gmail.com

 

[CaptDon01]

On my original swing keeled C-22 many years ago to hold the keel bolts in I put anti-seize on the threads, and some thickened WEST epoxy around the bolt heads in the recess on the brass hangers. This held the keel bolts in place, never had an issue with them loosening up, and when it came time to periodically replace them, I simply taped on the epoxy with a small flat screwdriver to remove it. Plus it helped smooth out the bottom. Just a suggestion.

Don

 

[Leeward Rail]

On my original swing keeled C-22 many years ago to hold the keel bolts in I put anti-seize on the threads, and some thickened WEST epoxy around the bolt heads in the recess on the brass hangers. This held the keel bolts in place, never had an issue with them loosening up, and when it came time to periodically replace them, I simply taped on the epoxy with a small flat screwdriver to remove it. Plus it helped smooth out the bottom. Just a suggestion.

Don

Brilliant Idea.
Anti-seize screws up torque readings, and can lead to damaged threads, but in this case It should be fine. Just have to be sure they aren't over tightened.

I've heard rumours that some type of anti-seize will harden with contact to salt water.
Never had a need to find out for sure.

+1 with what CloudDiver said.... Red locktite is overkill and would make it VERY hard to remove those bolts again.