Broken Fiddle/becket block w/ V cam.

[saltysailor]

As the photo shows below, I have a fiddle/becket/Vcam block that is being used to adjust my backstay and the bearings have started to break up. I thought I could replace the sheave but looking at it, the sheave doesn't appear to be removable. I have a couple questions. #1. Is this a common piece of hardware to use at the backstay adjuster? It has worked fine for me but it's certainly something I'm not too familiar with. I think I'd rather use this block with a V cam rather then drill more holes and put a camcleat or something on my transom. #2. Is there any reason this is a double? I don't see the need for both sheaves. Its not set up now using both and the pull is fairly light.
Do I replace this piece with the same or have you guys got better ideas.
Oh btw...this is on a Cal 2-27.


[url=http://

Thanks
Jared

 

[Stu Jackson]

Get a block with a cam cleat built into the block.

 

[Joe]

That vee jam cleat fiddle block with becket could be used with another fiddle (no becket) to create a 4:1 purchase. This style cleat was often used in dinghy trapeze line adjusters. The reason it's only using one block is because the line is too large. A 3/16" high tech single braid line would run much more smoothly through both sheaves. Couple it to a double on the other end and you would have an excellent 4:1 backstay adjuster.

It's difficult to tell if the sheaves can be replace without seeing the other side of the housing.

 

[kloudie1]

You can replace the sheaves if you carefully drill out the rivit that is the axle. Measure the axle and use a shouldered bolt with locknut to replace the rivit after putting in new sheaves.
You can drill or grind off the flattened part of the rivet, then press the axle out..
If the block is pulling on a travelling pulley set that squeezes on a split backstay, it is an ok size.

 

[Cayennita]

It appears to be undersize for your boat. Get a larger back stay adjuster. What you have now is for dinghy size boats. 4:1 with a cam cleat as a minimum.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It won't hurt to upgrade ...

It's not clear if you are talking split backstay or not.

Here's a picture of my new addition. As it is a split backstay, mine is 8:1 and it is a very easy glide. I have a standard fiddle block at the top end and a fiddle block with becket and cam cleat at the bottom.

I bought the blocks and rigging at the chandalry right here. This and my new line controlled traveler blocks are the best additions I have made in a while.

The blocks don't need to be fiddle blocks ... they can be side by side, but I liked fiddle blocks because they are sleeker.

If you have a split backstay, the sheave at the triangle turns 2:1 into 4:1. You could probably be happy with a standard single block at the top and a single block with becket and cam cleat at the bottom.

I don't think you have to do any new mountings.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

That is a Harken part and they will replace it if damaged, but, to be honest, it is way too small for your boat size. As before mentioned the block is designed to use both sheaves for a 4 part system. If the becket were on another single block, then it would be a 3 part system. Buy bigger and it will work even better.

 

[saltysailor]

Well first off this is on a split backstay. I have never thought that this is hard to tighten whatsoever but maybe the fact that the bearings are breaking up is evidence that the hardware is too light for this application.
Regarding replacing the sheave...yeah, I could drill out the axle and replace with a bolt and nylock nut but it does seem like I'll be coming back to the same issue if indeed this isn't really built to have this much pressure on it.

Maybe I should replace it with something like this (http://garhauermarine.com/ProductSpecs.cfm?pid=36)
Then I'd have to get two more double blocks correct? It'll make more sense in my head when I'm at the boat looking at it all.

Thanks for the ideas.

Jared

 

[saltysailor]

Just to clarify (which I should have done from the start). My system as of now is...a split backstay. The double fiddle is attached to my starboard transom, the line is run up through a double block on the top of the "triangle" and then down to the port side to a single block, back up to the triangle/block and back down to my broken fiddle block.

 

[Joe]

Well first off this is on a split backstay. I have never thought that this is hard to tighten whatsoever but maybe the fact that the bearings are breaking up is evidence that the hardware is too light for this application.
Regarding replacing the sheave...yeah, I could drill out the axle and replace with a bolt and nylock nut but it does seem like I'll be coming back to the same issue if indeed this isn't really built to have this much pressure on it.

Maybe I should replace it with something like this (http://garhauermarine.com/ProductSpecs.cfm?pid=36)
Then I'd have to get two more double blocks correct? It'll make more sense in my head when I'm at the boat looking at it all.

Thanks for the ideas.

Jared

I like that solution. Garhaurer marine makes cool stuff.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

That's a fiddle block ...

with becket and cam cleat. The problem with your set-up is that it doesn't utilize the mechanical advantage of both blocks (either with your existing or this Garhauser).

I can visualize the way that it is set up on your boat, but it looks like you are only getting a 4:1 mechanical advantage for all those blocks. This seems like a waste.

But first let's calarify ... do you have a backstay (standing rigging) that comes down above the transom terminating in a double block which is then rigged as a split backstay with the lines and blocks mounted at the corners (running rigging)) that you describe or do you have a true split backstay that is rigged with a fitting that connects two branches of the backstay (standing rigging) which are connected to chainplates at the port and starboard quarters?

In other words, do you have an assembly that pinches a split backstay for tensioning or do you have rigging attached to the quarters which pull down on a single backstay via attached blocks and lines? (look at the attached Harken diagrams).

(I'd hate to think that your backstay isn't attached to a chain plate or chain plates.)

Mine is done as the example shown in the Harken 8:1 set-up shown below, except that I don't use blocks at the standing rigging, I use a Johnson backstay adjuster as also shown below (without the becket). Also, I use Schaefer blocks, but that is not important, the Harken diagram is useful to describe the various options.

http://www.harken.com/rigtips/BackstayAdjuster.php
http://www.pyacht.com/johnson-backstay-adjusters.htm

You could improve your mechanical advantage if you replaced your double block at the top with a triple block. That way, the second block on your fiddle block would be utilized.

If you want a very simple replacement, just get a block with a becket and a cam cleat. That is all you are utilizing as it is.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Another thought ...

does the double block at the top have a becket? If it does, start by attaching the line at the becket of the double block at the top. You won't need a becket at a new fiddle block at the bottom and you will gain mechanical advantage by utilizing both blocks of the fiddle block. This will require a longer line, possibly.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Another comment ...

We looked at a Cal 2-27 (1979) and it was a very nice boat. We made an offer too late (it got sold while we sat for a day on the decision). If I recall, it is a very solid construction (fairly heavy for a 27' boat) and sizable sail plan. I would seriously consider making upgrades and if the split backstay was a modification that somebody did (I am thinking that the boat we looked at had a single backstay with the chainplate at the centerline), I would want to make sure the mounting plates are done right and make the necessary improvements. Something sounds fishy about the set-up you describe and I would want to be careful to do the right thing (maybe that's just me).

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Well first off this is on a split backstay. I have never thought that this is hard to tighten whatsoever but maybe the fact that the bearings are breaking up is evidence that the hardware is too light for this application.
Regarding replacing the sheave...yeah, I could drill out the axle and replace with a bolt and nylock nut but it does seem like I'll be coming back to the same issue if indeed this isn't really built to have this much pressure on it.

Maybe I should replace it with something like this (http://garhauermarine.com/ProductSpecs.cfm?pid=36)
Then I'd have to get two more double blocks correct? It'll make more sense in my head when I'm at the boat looking at it all.

That's the one, only thing is the picture is upside down. And this is your bottom block. Get a fiddle for the upper connection and you're done.

If you look at Garhauer's website, look for vangs - that's the arrangement you're looking for. I bought a Garhauer 4:1 vang with both blocks and the line for far less than it would have cost to make up my own for my backstay adjuster.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Stu, I don't think a fiddle block at the top ...

changes anything. Visualize his set-up (if it is described accurately) ... he already has a double block at the top. A fiddle block is the same thing, except the blocks are over/under instead of side by side. If he replaced the top with a fiddle with becket, then he could utilize a fiddle with cam at the bottom to gain just a little mechanical advantage.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Yup, I didn't get into the becket location details. That's why i suggested a pre-made soft vang.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Because he seems to have the line running over the top from stbd to port and then again from port to stbd, I would use a double block in this circumstance, not a fiddle block. If he has a becket at the top and starts his line from there, he can use both blocks of a new fiddle block at the bottom (and he doesn't need a becket there).

He would start at top (becket) and go down to the stbd fiddle, back over top block down to port block back over 2nd top block back down to fiddle (around block) and through cam cleat.

 

[saltysailor]

Because he seems to have the line running over the top from stbd to port and then again from port to stbd, I would use a double block in this circumstance, not a fiddle block. If he has a becket at the top and starts his line from there, he can use both blocks of a new fiddle block at the bottom (and he doesn't need a becket there).

He would start at top (becket) and go down to the stbd fiddle, back over top block down to port block back over 2nd top block back down to fiddle (around block) and through cam cleat.

Hey, I've got to really thank you guys for putting in the time to figure out my situation.
I felt a little bad about all your help so I rushed to the boat after putting the kids to bed. I just wanted to make sure I was describing my situation correctly so here's some photos...

Here's where my backstay splits (about 8' off the transom) yes it's rusty and yes it's getting replaced this winter))



Here's the top double block (no becket)


Here's the starboard block


and here's the port side


It seems like the most basic replacement would be to just get a single block/becket/cam and replace what's broken. I guess that only creates a 2:1 but the way it was rigged before was essentially the same and I never felt it was hard to tighten. I do like Scotts suggestion of a double/becket on top and a double/cam on the starboard side. I'm leaning toward that direction and will price it out. Once again, thanks for teaching me about my backstay and if you have better ideas or think that I have got it all wrong...let me know
Jared

 

[Stu Jackson]

Some people run the lines up one side and down the other. Some do it all on one side with a soft vang, like this:

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes, you have everything you need already in place. As it is, you have at least 4:1 so you have a lot of options. Stu is showing what is basically at least 8:1 as shown in the Harken diagram - same as mine. That backstay adjuster on your boat is almost exactly the same as mine, except I don't have the becket. Instead I have a wire run over the sheath (where the becket is). Using that sheath doubles whatever purchase I have with the lines and blocks below - which is 4:1 using 2 fiddle blocks. The fiddle block works well at the top basically because it is cascading on the stbd side.

If you continue to use the block on the port side, you would probably be better off with the double block rather than a fiddle block, but you have a set-up with your backstay adjuster that gives you a multiple of choices.