Bowsprit Protection from Chain

[Foswick]

We had a rough day, recently, and found out several hours into it that our chain was loose. (The windlass switch is right by where I sit when backing out of the slip, so I have accidentally let out the chain more than once. Going to move the switch, but that isn't the point.)

When we bought this boat (less than a year ago), the bowsprit was pretty weathered. Having put some work into cleaning it up, a little bit of wear shows up a lot more readily.

Ignoring the fact that the last link or two might need to go ...

Has anyone employed a solution to this wear problem that they are happy with? I mean, having the chain tensioned certainly helps, but I don't like to keep it too tight. It is possible/easy to tension it so that it pulls the bowsprit out of alignment.

My instinct is to put some sort of pad down, but I would like to preserve the aesthetic as much as possible. I just learned that some people put a section of tubular webbing over the last few feet. That's OK ... ish. It would probably need replacement each season and it complicates chain inspection. But, maybe I can live with that.

Anyone else come up with the perfect solution?

Note that I would not expect normal wear to extend as far to port as it does in this photo. This was an exceptional case where the chain was quite loose and seas were quite rough, and this went unnoticed for hours.

Bonus Question: Is there a clever switch that I don't know about that prevents an electric windlass from wrecking my bowsprit? Like a switch that detects when the anchor is up and the motor will not lift past that point? I could invent my own, but surely this has been done. I don't think I've ever seen it, but then again, I don't pay much attention to this on other people's boats. I'm actually considering disconnecting the "up" switch just for this reason.

 

[MFD]

A chafe protection sleeve with velcro to affix/remove it.
In an emergency and if forgotten - it will still make over the bow roller.
You can find items like that for sale as dock line chafe gear, a little pricey and a little too short.
Just tossing out ideas...

EDIT: Something like this, but longer? Davis Instruments 395 | Fisheries Supply

EDIT2: Whoops, looks like you were referring to the wear by the anchor & shackle, not the chain,

 

[dlochner]

The easy solution is to turn off the breaker for the windlass when the anchor is secure, that will disable the windlass switch.

The windlass should not be used to tension the anchor chain. There should be a chain stopper to secure the chain at all times so that the load is not on the windlass. In addition to the chain stopper use a second line to secure the chain in the event the chain stopper should fail.

With a chain stopper between the anchor and the windlass, the windlass will not be able to lower the anchor without releasing the stopper. That will end the problem of the anchor coming off the bow sprit.

 

[jssailem]

I have heard owners utilize a piece of HDPE (Starboard) as a pad for the chain. I have a similar problem on my foredeck, where the chain runs between the windlass and the bow roller. I am looking to secure a stainless plate to serve as a pad.

Are you letting the windlass provide the tension? I retrieve the anchor and chain at the bow and tension the chain by tying it off to a pad eye. This has kept the chain in the air from the bow roller to the tie-off near the windlass. The Anchor is tight against its hold pad on the bow roller.

There are tension hooks that you can use similarly to my chain-tied set-up.

I have not seen a switch that works as you outline. There are chain counting systems that you can rig. The counter can be in the windlass (usually a magnetic switch). It will tell you when the chain is reaching Zero deployed.

I have a manual switch at the helm and a remote switch that I carry in my pocket.

 

[dLj]

I would love a chain stopper but I have a difficult bow sprit setup where no commercially available unit will work. At least not without a lot of structural work.

I tie the chain off with line to a bow cleat. It would be nice to have a back up system but it's what I've got. It's worked well to date.

dj

p.s. I have an on/off switch at my helm that turns the windlass off (technically it disables the up/down switches) in addition to a switch that turns off all power to the entire circuit under my forward bunk.

 

[Foswick]

I have heard owners utilize a piece of HDPE (Starboard) as a pad for the chain. I have a similar problem on my foredeck, where the chain runs between the windlass and the bow roller. I am looking to secure a stainless plate to serve as a pad.

I had similar thoughts. Also considered just a sacrificial piece of wood that I could replace from time to time.

Are you letting the windlass provide the tension? I retrieve the anchor and chain at the bow and tension the chain by tying it off to a pad eye. This has kept the chain in the air from the bow roller to the tie-off near the windlass. The Anchor is tight against its hold pad on the bow roller.

Well, there are a few things about the current setup that are on the list, not the least of which is the fact that there is nothing holding onto that chain but the windlass. We have yet to anchor out (in this boat), but our short-term plan was to set the anchor, then attach a cleated line to the chain so that the windlass doesn't take the shock. But, yes, in the raised position, just the windlass holds it, and I'm OK with that.

For some mysterious reason, the windlass is wired independent of the distribution panel, so I currently have no way to cut power to just the windlass. There are buttons on the foredeck, plus a two-way switch in the cockpit. So, it is pretty easy to accidentally engage. Of course, I will want to route this through the distribution panel. And, I think I'll replace the cockpit switch with a covered switch. But, I do think it would be a clever feature to have the windlass power off when the anchor is nearly up. I might come up with something ... some day.

In the long run, I kind of like the idea of having to go forward to turn on the windlass. Someone has to go up there to get the anchor off the roller. And, even if I am just raising the anchor, I want someone to put eyes on it to make sure the chain has clear path and hasn't caught on something or twisted weird.

Another option I've considered is installing a momentary button right next to cockpit switch. To operate the switch, the button would need to be depressed. A little inconvenient, but also nearly accident-proof. Still, as mentioned, you can accomplish the same thing if you are able to shut it off at the distribution panel.

---

As to the abrasion, I think I am going to try the webbing approach. We don't anchor for very long at a stretch, as a rule. Something like that might be just fine.

 

[jssailem]

the windlass is wired independent of the distribution panel

Mine is also wired that way. There is an independent breaker. I think it is like 75-80 amps.
I’ll be at the boat Monday and I’ll check on it.

The windlass is not powered unless I intend it to be. Most often that is when the engine is running. I start the engine, then turn on the windlass. When the anchor is down we repeat the action. There is also the ability to release and drop the anchor without power in an emergency.

One additional thing. The end of the rode is tied securely to the boat in the anchor locker. Just in case the anchor is released free running. The bitter end is secured.

 

[dlochner]

For some mysterious reason, the windlass is wired independent of the distribution panel,

The loads from the windlass and in particular the inrush loads will exceed the panel's capacity. If you have a solenoid for the foot switches, the solenoid can be wired through the main distribution panel because the current draw is pretty small.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

but our short-term plan was to set the anchor, then attach a cleated line to the chain so that the windlass doesn't take the shock

Not sure what you meant by “set” but just to clarify, it would best to use the snubber line on the cleat (not the windlass) to carry the load when you back down on that anchor under load. (You probably meant that.)

 

[JoeWhite]

I realize that the vessel is new to you. I am pretty sure you mean momentary button for the windlass power rather than a switch. If it is a switch it should be replaced with a momentary button.
Considering the large amount of current that is needed to run the windlass motor, it is unlikely that the cables from the battery are connected directly to the momentary button due to the distance required, this will drop the voltage too much. It is more likely that the battery cables run through a circuit breaker, then to the windlass for safety. Trace the cables from the windlass back to the battery and locate the circuit breaker. It is possible that the PO installed these buttons to be able to activate the windlass from the cockpit using relays located near the windlass motor.
When not in use, turn off the circuit breaker.

 

[Foswick]

The loads from the windlass and in particular the inrush loads will exceed the panel's capacity. If you have a solenoid for the foot switches, the solenoid can be wired through the main distribution panel because the current draw is pretty small.

Yeah, I looked up the specs for the windlass and realized that, last night.

But, my hope/assumption is that there is some other circuit protection (breaker) for that circuit. If not, I guess I add that to the list.

I also reviewed our survey report, wondering if any of this was mentioned. This particular issue was not.

 

[dlochner]

But, my hope/assumption is that there is some other circuit protection (breaker) for that circuit. If not, I guess I add that to the list.

The circuit protection won't be a regular fuse or breaker, it will probably be a thermal breaker similar to these from Blue Seas, they have several models.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/category/14/30/Circuit_Breakers/187-Series

 

[jssailem]

Here is a simple diagram of a windlass circuit. The solenoid is sometimes referred to as a contactor.

 

[Foswick]

Thanks! Yeah, that whole circuit is a bit of a mystery to me. Not that the circuit design is confusing, but because I haven't figured out physically where it is on the boat.

A previous owner even created a very nice schematic describing what they had done when the windlass was installed, but I haven't traced the wires out and found everything.

 

[colemj]

Windlasses usually have an adjustable clutch that will slip at a certain load. You can adjust your clutch so that it slips before damaging your sprit. If your sprit cannot take the force needed to raise the chain and anchor, then I'd be addressing the sprit, and not the windlass.

There is almost certainly a breaker in the windlass circuit. Start at the motor and chase back the positive cable. It should connect to an independent breaker mounted (hopefully) somewhere close to the battery.

I don't see any way of protecting wood that a chain and anchor regularly runs over, other than applying something sacrificial on it. We used this on a fiberglass beam on our previous boat: Amazon.com

Mark

 

[Foswick]

Windlasses usually have an adjustable clutch that will slip at a certain load. You can adjust your clutch so that it slips before damaging your sprit. If your sprit cannot take the force needed to raise the chain and anchor, then I'd be addressing the sprit, and not the windlass.

I considered that. The trick is finding that point where the windlass is delivering plenty of power, but not so much that it risks damaging the bowsprit. Seems the only real way to test that is to risk damaging the bowsprit. I only know that I ran the up-button just a little too long and there was a distinct twist on the bowsprit. I don't think anything was damaged, and it straightened out when I released the tension, but another couple of inches (less than a second) might have been a problem.

Also, I don't know a good way to set-and-forget the clutch.

It's clear there is a bit I need to sort out. Looking at the manual, it raises more questions than it answers. For example, it talks about a "hydraulic magnetic circuit breaker". I spent some time stratching my head over what a "hydraulic magnetic circuit breaker" could even possibly be, until I finally realized they probably meant "hydraulic or magnetic circuit breaker". Also, it tells me to "disengage the brake" whereas, if my windlass (Lofrans X2) has a brake, I don't know where it is. My assumption is that they simply mean to back off the clutch.

 

[colemj]

Hydraulic magnetic breakers are a thing, and use a different mechanism than thermal breakers. Either can be used for a windlass. If they are specifically mentioning one type, it is possible that the breaker was included with the windlass when purchased.

We have a different Lofrans windlass, but I think the clutches are the same. You adjust the clutch tension, and it stays there. Our anchor roller is in the middle of our crossbeam (catamaran), and the crossbeam/roller could be damaged if the windlass pulled the anchor tight. I have the clutch set so that it has no problem pulling up the chain and anchor, but will slip before it causes damage to the beam/roller. It is the same clutch setting that can pull the anchor out of relatively easy sand/mud, but will slip if caught under a rock or buried too deeply. I'd be concerned about the integrity of a bowsprit that couldn't take a modest windlass pull from a parked anchor. Your picture looks like there is a headsail connected to this sprit. Does that twist the sprit too?

Mark

 

[Foswick]

Hydraulic magnetic breakers are a thing, and use a different mechanism than thermal breakers. Either can be used for a windlass. If they are specifically mentioning one type, it is possible that the breaker was included with the windlass when purchased.

Yeah, I finally Googled it.

You adjust the clutch tension, and it stays there.

Well, it does until you crank on the manual override. I don't know any other way to safely raise the chain the last few inches and get it tight, than to just grab the nearest winch handle and give it a couple of turns, at which time the clutch is retightened.

I'd be concerned about the integrity of a bowsprit that couldn't take a modest windlass pull from a parked anchor. Your picture looks like there is a headsail connected to this sprit. Does that twist the sprit too?

There's nothing wrong with the bowsprit. I can put all of my weight on it and not detectably move it. The issue is twofold. First, the windlass is really powerful. It is not a modest amount of force. (I don't know the amount of force, the documentation has been unclear about that.) Second, the bowsprit gets its strength largely from the forestay and bobstay (resisting up and down motion along the center line), and the bowsprit shrouds (resisting lateral motion). The aft end of the bowsprit is attached to the hull. The only thing resisting twisting is the wood itself. The bowsprit shrouds resist this a little bit, and I suppose the pulpit helps a tiny bit.

Nothing about the structure is designed to resist much torsion. It is fine with normal loads (like standing on, anchoring, etc.) It doesn't really like being deliberately pulled on with a powerful winch.

Now, the windlass might actually slip before it does any damage. I am just not willing to test that theory. It sure looks like it has no intention of resting until it has consumed everything in its path.

 

[colemj]

Well, it does until you crank on the manual override. I don't know any other way to safely raise the chain the last few inches and get it tight, than to just grab the nearest winch handle and give it a couple of turns, at which time the clutch is retightened.

I looked up a picture of your windlass and see that now. Our horizontal Lofrans has a separate mechanism for manual recovery that doesn't involve the clutch. Other vertical windlasses I've used also had a separate mechanism. Yours seems to continually tighten the clutch when in use.

There's nothing wrong with the bowsprit. I can put all of my weight on it and not detectably move it. The issue is twofold. First, the windlass is really powerful. It is not a modest amount of force. (I don't know the amount of force, the documentation has been unclear about that.) Second, the bowsprit gets its strength largely from the forestay and bobstay (resisting up and down motion along the center line), and the bowsprit shrouds (resisting lateral motion). The aft end of the bowsprit is attached to the hull. The only thing resisting twisting is the wood itself. The bowsprit shrouds resist this a little bit, and I suppose the pulpit helps a tiny bit.

Nothing about the structure is designed to resist much torsion. It is fine with normal loads (like standing on, anchoring, etc.) It doesn't really like being deliberately pulled on with a powerful winch.

Now, the windlass might actually slip before it does any damage. I am just not willing to test that theory. It sure looks like it has no intention of resting until it has consumed everything in its path.

My lack of understanding here is where the torsion is coming from? The anchor parked in the roller and pulled backward should only be compression load - no? Maybe some small amount of bending if the chain is pulling up at a slight angle because of geometry, but your bobstay should mostly counteract that. But I don't see where the torsion comes in.

We use a handheld remote on our windlass. Quickly bumping the up or down button only moves the gypsy one or two chain links. There is also a version of chain retainer that has a hook on a cam, where you hook the chain and pull the cam lever and it pulls the chain several links shorter. Either of these might be a solution for you. Like this: C. Sherman Johnson Single-Hook Anchor Chain Tensioner f/5/16" Chain

Mark

 

[Foswick]

My lack of understanding here is where the torsion is coming from? The anchor parked in the roller and pulled backward should only be compression load - no?

Yeah, I see what you're saying and you are mostly right. It is just that the windlass is just high enough off the deck that a taut chain is an inch or two elevated - just enough to slightly lift that side of the bowsprit. Now, in reality, probably more of what is happening is the wood is compressed in such a way as to distort in a way that creates a little bit of twist. But, nevertheless, it does distort.

Admittedly, the effect is slight - maybe a 1/4" or so - but enough that I could see it and enough to make me afraid to test the limits of this power.

Quickly bumping the up or down button only moves the gypsy one or two chain links.

Yeah, ours too. The thing is that it "coasts" a fair amount. That is, when you let off the button, it still coasts a couple of links. This makes timing really tricky. The windlass moves pretty fast.

Honestly, it really works out pretty well to use the motor for all but the last few feet, then grab a winch handle. This gives us a lot more control over hanging the anchor, rinsing if needed, etc. So, I'm pretty happy with that, in general. I just know that, eventually, I will not be paying attention or we will have guest crew, and this procedure will be overlooked.

Probably it will be just fine. Probably the clutch just won't allow enough tension to actually do any damage. I just don't have a good way to test this, reliably.