I have a 2000 410. I really could use assistance in docking this boat with Wind and Current always causing problems. Has anyone put Bow Thrusters on their 410 or similar boat. If so which manufacturer did you use. Any additional adivse would be appreciated. Thank you, Howard
Bow Thrusters
- Thread starter Brad18297
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Avoid bow thruster
I personally agree with you, but guys on this website are adamant that no self-respecting sailor would use a bow thruster. Of course, not everyone would even know it, but that's beside the point. I would recommend setting time each weekend to train solely on departing and docking. Take a fellow along who can jump around the boat fending off here and there, and just experiment with different speeds and coasting, and so on. Before long, you'll get your rhythm and know exactly when to make the turn into the slip, etc. When departing, wait for the wind to momentarily die down. Wind oscillates, and inevitably there's a lull within ten minutes. As you leave, bite the bullet and give it some thrust. The boat is not supposed to drift or coast out of the slip. Power up, with enough gusto to get rolling. When docking, remember that there's only one line that's vital and that's the one that will keep you from ramming the dock. Everything else is details and can be taken slowly. Take courage, we've all been there and few of us have killed anyone or sunk the boat learning this.
I personally agree with you, but guys on this website are adamant that no self-respecting sailor would use a bow thruster. Of course, not everyone would even know it, but that's beside the point. I would recommend setting time each weekend to train solely on departing and docking. Take a fellow along who can jump around the boat fending off here and there, and just experiment with different speeds and coasting, and so on. Before long, you'll get your rhythm and know exactly when to make the turn into the slip, etc. When departing, wait for the wind to momentarily die down. Wind oscillates, and inevitably there's a lull within ten minutes. As you leave, bite the bullet and give it some thrust. The boat is not supposed to drift or coast out of the slip. Power up, with enough gusto to get rolling. When docking, remember that there's only one line that's vital and that's the one that will keep you from ramming the dock. Everything else is details and can be taken slowly. Take courage, we've all been there and few of us have killed anyone or sunk the boat learning this.
Yeah, but....times they are a changin.
my winter dock is across from a major transiet dock on the ICW, so I'm seeing a lot of traffic right now. It's amazing how many of us (power and sail) have thrusters and use them for the obvious benefit. I suspect they are like furlers, electric winches, etc., true sailors might compalin, but if you can afford it, why not? My father never wanted electric windows in his car, now you can't really find a new car without them.
my winter dock is across from a major transiet dock on the ICW, so I'm seeing a lot of traffic right now. It's amazing how many of us (power and sail) have thrusters and use them for the obvious benefit. I suspect they are like furlers, electric winches, etc., true sailors might compalin, but if you can afford it, why not? My father never wanted electric windows in his car, now you can't really find a new car without them.
Bill and Don
I have wanted a bow thruster on my H34 since the day we bought her and saw what happens to the bow under wind and current. Bill, I hate boat dents. Don, add air conditioning to your list. Times change. I'm with you.
I have wanted a bow thruster on my H34 since the day we bought her and saw what happens to the bow under wind and current. Bill, I hate boat dents. Don, add air conditioning to your list. Times change. I'm with you.
Howard, I'm with Bill. A bow thruster...
is just one more appliance that can fail. Hey, maybe you're really a stink potter at heart. I like the challenge of sailing in these adverse conditions. Our P42 gets a mind of her own when you're trying to dock her in the wind and current. Understanding these characteristics helps you to learn how to tame her. It is all in the art of sailing IMHO. Terry
is just one more appliance that can fail. Hey, maybe you're really a stink potter at heart. I like the challenge of sailing in these adverse conditions. Our P42 gets a mind of her own when you're trying to dock her in the wind and current. Understanding these characteristics helps you to learn how to tame her. It is all in the art of sailing IMHO. Terry
Thrusters on even smaller vessels
A local cruising club in Annapolis uses a fleet of Albin 28 powerboats. They are single screw and they all have bow thrusters. It seems to becoming more common on trawler/lobster style boats, just as gensets are and a host of other conveniences. So, OK, they're POWER boats, but they have a whole lot less windage than my sailboat. I certainly would do bowthruster if it didn't cost so much. The most tense part of my sailing day is usually when landing the boat if there's any kind of crosswind blowing. Back to Howard's question, can anyone chime in that has actually done this mod on a Hunter (or ordered from the factory at build time)?
A local cruising club in Annapolis uses a fleet of Albin 28 powerboats. They are single screw and they all have bow thrusters. It seems to becoming more common on trawler/lobster style boats, just as gensets are and a host of other conveniences. So, OK, they're POWER boats, but they have a whole lot less windage than my sailboat. I certainly would do bowthruster if it didn't cost so much. The most tense part of my sailing day is usually when landing the boat if there's any kind of crosswind blowing. Back to Howard's question, can anyone chime in that has actually done this mod on a Hunter (or ordered from the factory at build time)?
pivot point
The inference that small sailboats should have thrusters just because Albin 28s have thrusters doesn't hold water. A sailboat pivots on its keel when turning. A powerboat turns by moving its stern in the opposite direction of the turn while the bow stays in place. Windage is a much greater problem for powerboats, even if they have less windage than a sailboat, because they have tiny little rudders designed to work at faster speeds. When we drop the keels off the sailboats, and reduce the size of our rudders by 2/3rds, that's when we'll all need bow thrusters.
The inference that small sailboats should have thrusters just because Albin 28s have thrusters doesn't hold water. A sailboat pivots on its keel when turning. A powerboat turns by moving its stern in the opposite direction of the turn while the bow stays in place. Windage is a much greater problem for powerboats, even if they have less windage than a sailboat, because they have tiny little rudders designed to work at faster speeds. When we drop the keels off the sailboats, and reduce the size of our rudders by 2/3rds, that's when we'll all need bow thrusters.
John...
Brian didn't say "should", so I think your drawing an inference from his comment is incorrect....(no flames, just giving you a hard time here.) He seems to say it would be nice to have, like a gen, etc. Brian and I both sail 37.5's in/around Annapolis and like him, I'd take all the help I can get with my boat - thruster included. Life's just too short to take the hard route. Now, let's all reread Howard's original post and try to answer his question as posed....
Brian didn't say "should", so I think your drawing an inference from his comment is incorrect....(no flames, just giving you a hard time here.) He seems to say it would be nice to have, like a gen, etc. Brian and I both sail 37.5's in/around Annapolis and like him, I'd take all the help I can get with my boat - thruster included. Life's just too short to take the hard route. Now, let's all reread Howard's original post and try to answer his question as posed....
Bow Thruster on a 426 DS
I can't speak to if having a bow thurster is "right" or "wrong". But, I can give you some information you asked for. I had a bow thruster on my hunter 426 DS. It was installed by the factory and worked very well. I would check with Hunter to see what they are installing currently as they seem to have a handle on what works for their boats. One thing I found problematic was the battery location. On the 426 it was a hassel to get to it to check the water levels as it was in the forward berth and you had to fight with the matteress every time you needed to get to the compartment it was in. You do need a seperate battery so you don't run down a critical one such as your start battery etc. It uses a start battery due to its large demand when in use like the starer on your engine. Another issue was the zinc - yes it has a zinc. So, whatever model you chose make sure you get an extra zinc. The one I had was a faily good size thrust wise and if yo are going to do it you want to have all the thrust you can get. These are heavy boats and need some power to convince them to turn the bow into the wind for example. I understand your issues with docking the boat. I could back my boat into anything in the northeast and would use the bow thruster occationally if the spot was tight (had 8" clearance side to side in one spot on the Mystic river). But in Charleston it was a blessing! I would have had to time the tides to be able to get it back in the slip with just one crew member if I didn't have the thruster. Read this I could do it, but was glad I didn't have to. It is interesting that most people will accept a hand from the dock to grab a line but think a bow thruster is evil! Having to dock this boat at many unfamiliar locations with just myself and my wife under adverse conditions, I found the bow thruster to be a help on many occations. If it fails - Oh well, thats what you had with out it! So what is the downside? Many act like if you have ever used one you will forget how to dock your boat! I found in Charleston that the speed of the tides and the cross winds made it challenging to dock the boat into double slips where the clearance between you and the 50 footer next to you was only a couple of feet. If that is a Hinkley they look very unfavorably on you if you scrape their gel coat! When I sold the boat the surveyer and the broker brought it back to the dock with the new owner and the surveyer's assistant on board. The wind was blowing across the slip and the tide was running about 4 knots toward the slip. I asked them to back it in, and I was on the dock to help with the lines. The broker had lived on his boat for 10 years and from what I could see was very experienced. After surveying the situation they elected to come in bow first to avoid hitting the boat next door. So, I don't think it is only the inexperienced that have trouble docking under some conditions and while the bow thruster won't save you every time - it is like having an extra hand on deck when you need it. Don't rely on it, but use it to make your day of sailing more enjoyable with a clean get away and an easier return to your or someone elses dock. Oh yea, I had an auto pilot too so I could trim the sails with greater ease and help on long passages. That is probably not needed either, and it may spoil your sailing experience.
I can't speak to if having a bow thurster is "right" or "wrong". But, I can give you some information you asked for. I had a bow thruster on my hunter 426 DS. It was installed by the factory and worked very well. I would check with Hunter to see what they are installing currently as they seem to have a handle on what works for their boats. One thing I found problematic was the battery location. On the 426 it was a hassel to get to it to check the water levels as it was in the forward berth and you had to fight with the matteress every time you needed to get to the compartment it was in. You do need a seperate battery so you don't run down a critical one such as your start battery etc. It uses a start battery due to its large demand when in use like the starer on your engine. Another issue was the zinc - yes it has a zinc. So, whatever model you chose make sure you get an extra zinc. The one I had was a faily good size thrust wise and if yo are going to do it you want to have all the thrust you can get. These are heavy boats and need some power to convince them to turn the bow into the wind for example. I understand your issues with docking the boat. I could back my boat into anything in the northeast and would use the bow thruster occationally if the spot was tight (had 8" clearance side to side in one spot on the Mystic river). But in Charleston it was a blessing! I would have had to time the tides to be able to get it back in the slip with just one crew member if I didn't have the thruster. Read this I could do it, but was glad I didn't have to. It is interesting that most people will accept a hand from the dock to grab a line but think a bow thruster is evil! Having to dock this boat at many unfamiliar locations with just myself and my wife under adverse conditions, I found the bow thruster to be a help on many occations. If it fails - Oh well, thats what you had with out it! So what is the downside? Many act like if you have ever used one you will forget how to dock your boat! I found in Charleston that the speed of the tides and the cross winds made it challenging to dock the boat into double slips where the clearance between you and the 50 footer next to you was only a couple of feet. If that is a Hinkley they look very unfavorably on you if you scrape their gel coat! When I sold the boat the surveyer and the broker brought it back to the dock with the new owner and the surveyer's assistant on board. The wind was blowing across the slip and the tide was running about 4 knots toward the slip. I asked them to back it in, and I was on the dock to help with the lines. The broker had lived on his boat for 10 years and from what I could see was very experienced. After surveying the situation they elected to come in bow first to avoid hitting the boat next door. So, I don't think it is only the inexperienced that have trouble docking under some conditions and while the bow thruster won't save you every time - it is like having an extra hand on deck when you need it. Don't rely on it, but use it to make your day of sailing more enjoyable with a clean get away and an easier return to your or someone elses dock. Oh yea, I had an auto pilot too so I could trim the sails with greater ease and help on long passages. That is probably not needed either, and it may spoil your sailing experience.
Sure thrusters work....
....but what ever happened to learning how to control your boat???? There's no magic pill to take for learning the skills needed to control your boat. Give me a break, either you want to sail or you don't. A few lessons from a skilled sailor and plenty of practice. Then again, why not just buy a trawler and forget about sailing?? Seamanship doesn't come in a bottle or a thruster, it comes with practice and skill!!
....but what ever happened to learning how to control your boat???? There's no magic pill to take for learning the skills needed to control your boat. Give me a break, either you want to sail or you don't. A few lessons from a skilled sailor and plenty of practice. Then again, why not just buy a trawler and forget about sailing?? Seamanship doesn't come in a bottle or a thruster, it comes with practice and skill!!
Alan, let me chime in here
(sorry) Thanks for your help on that backstay discussion. Anyway, docking these modern boats in a cross wind/current is a problem. Especially in many narrow-slip marinas. Add to that the fact that docking your boat is NOT sailing it. Back in the old days, I lost count of the number of times I had to sail my Ericson into a berth or dock. (It had a Atomic 4, ('nuf said)) But that boat was narrow. My H34 maxes out a lot of slips, my own included. Add to that, wind and current, (wind on the mast too) and it is a handful. Again, not my idea of sailing.
(sorry) Thanks for your help on that backstay discussion. Anyway, docking these modern boats in a cross wind/current is a problem. Especially in many narrow-slip marinas. Add to that the fact that docking your boat is NOT sailing it. Back in the old days, I lost count of the number of times I had to sail my Ericson into a berth or dock. (It had a Atomic 4, ('nuf said)) But that boat was narrow. My H34 maxes out a lot of slips, my own included. Add to that, wind and current, (wind on the mast too) and it is a handful. Again, not my idea of sailing.Give him a break!
The questions are about which thruster to install and how to do it! Not a discussion on the merits of the device. I must ask though. Of all the nay sayers, how many are docking a 40 to 50 foot newer design, high windage hull boat? As I stated in my last post obvioulsy you need to learn to control your boat - but would you refuse someone grabing a line for you in a tough docking situation?
The questions are about which thruster to install and how to do it! Not a discussion on the merits of the device. I must ask though. Of all the nay sayers, how many are docking a 40 to 50 foot newer design, high windage hull boat? As I stated in my last post obvioulsy you need to learn to control your boat - but would you refuse someone grabing a line for you in a tough docking situation?
good question
For the record, Ed, I own the exact same boat that Howard's question is about, an h410, and I think it manuevers superbly in close quarters. Granted, it's a little tricky parking a boat with a 14-foot beam in a 15-foot slip off a narrow fairway, but that's why fenders were invented. The question that really interests me, however, is whether I'd refuse someone grabbing a line for me in a tough docking situation, and the answer is a resounding "YES!" This is one of the first things I learned crewing for big power-yachts, is to politely ignore volunteer line handlers on the dock. The last thing you want to happen on a hundred-tonner is for someone to make fast to a cleat when the captain was planning to drift for another 10 feet. Goodbye cleat. This is a problem I often have because my home slip is adjacent to my yacht club's guest dock. If there's a transcient boat on the dock, chances are they'll volunteer a hand with docking, and if we toss a bow line it's odds on that our helper will end up hauling in hard for no reason, ultimately screwing up whatever manuever I'm attempting. My usual response, these days, is to say, "If you can just hold on to my bow pulpit once I've stopped, that will be a great help." Gets them out of the way so the crew can handle the lines.
For the record, Ed, I own the exact same boat that Howard's question is about, an h410, and I think it manuevers superbly in close quarters. Granted, it's a little tricky parking a boat with a 14-foot beam in a 15-foot slip off a narrow fairway, but that's why fenders were invented. The question that really interests me, however, is whether I'd refuse someone grabbing a line for me in a tough docking situation, and the answer is a resounding "YES!" This is one of the first things I learned crewing for big power-yachts, is to politely ignore volunteer line handlers on the dock. The last thing you want to happen on a hundred-tonner is for someone to make fast to a cleat when the captain was planning to drift for another 10 feet. Goodbye cleat. This is a problem I often have because my home slip is adjacent to my yacht club's guest dock. If there's a transcient boat on the dock, chances are they'll volunteer a hand with docking, and if we toss a bow line it's odds on that our helper will end up hauling in hard for no reason, ultimately screwing up whatever manuever I'm attempting. My usual response, these days, is to say, "If you can just hold on to my bow pulpit once I've stopped, that will be a great help." Gets them out of the way so the crew can handle the lines.
good idea, but difficult to execute
I had the same idea some time ago and called Hunter to inquire about details. Hunter was helpful, and explained that the bow on the 410 was to shallow to accomodate the thrust tube without a major refit below decks. Postioning the tube would require raising the floor in the forward cabin or building a step over. The thruster would then be mounted off center under the forward bunk. There would also be a number of compromises arising from where the mechanism would be fitted that could reduce expected performance. I put the whole project out of my mind and over the past couple of years have become quite good a getting the boat to do what I want.
I had the same idea some time ago and called Hunter to inquire about details. Hunter was helpful, and explained that the bow on the 410 was to shallow to accomodate the thrust tube without a major refit below decks. Postioning the tube would require raising the floor in the forward cabin or building a step over. The thruster would then be mounted off center under the forward bunk. There would also be a number of compromises arising from where the mechanism would be fitted that could reduce expected performance. I put the whole project out of my mind and over the past couple of years have become quite good a getting the boat to do what I want.
Retractable bow thruster
Howard, I'll stay out of the pro/con debate but let you know of an alternative to a tunnel type bow thruster. The web site below shows a retractable bow thruster that is fairly compact (14" H x 16" L x 13" W space taken by the unit) and can be either electric or hydraulic powered. It drops down out of the hull when in use and retracts to provide fairly smooth lines when not in use. If you have access to a CAD program you can download the drawings and review them. The drawings show the installtion requirements, dimensions, etc. Good luck. http://www.max-power.com/retract.html
Howard, I'll stay out of the pro/con debate but let you know of an alternative to a tunnel type bow thruster. The web site below shows a retractable bow thruster that is fairly compact (14" H x 16" L x 13" W space taken by the unit) and can be either electric or hydraulic powered. It drops down out of the hull when in use and retracts to provide fairly smooth lines when not in use. If you have access to a CAD program you can download the drawings and review them. The drawings show the installtion requirements, dimensions, etc. Good luck. http://www.max-power.com/retract.html
Bill
You've just made the point I was trying apparently unsuccessfully to make. Thrusters work amd have their place, but not as a replacement for seamanship skills. Maybe a 60 footer needs one but nothing that Hunter builds does. A bit of knowledge and some practice will cover just about any situation our boats can get into. As to the question about me having an engine on my boat: yes, of course I have one and when the wind dies I might use it. But most of the time we spend sailing, to the dock, away from the dock, to the mooring and so on. You would be amazed at what you can accomplish if you try and practice.
You've just made the point I was trying apparently unsuccessfully to make. Thrusters work amd have their place, but not as a replacement for seamanship skills. Maybe a 60 footer needs one but nothing that Hunter builds does. A bit of knowledge and some practice will cover just about any situation our boats can get into. As to the question about me having an engine on my boat: yes, of course I have one and when the wind dies I might use it. But most of the time we spend sailing, to the dock, away from the dock, to the mooring and so on. You would be amazed at what you can accomplish if you try and practice.
They sound good in principle
Like John Farnsworth, I also have the same boat you are refering to. Another post suggested there would not be enough room for the installation which is what I immediately thought about when I first read the initial posting. Also like John F. said, the last thing you need is for with good intentions to help during your entry into a slip. My technique is to do the maneuver while coasting. Any outside help is going to screw up my intended line. Every time I have received assistance, the boat ends up with a dock stripe on its hull. And finally, we used to have a Freedom 40 directly across from us. It had a thruster and the slip was a down wind variety. The few times I saw its owner using it, it appeared that it offered inadaquate help in getting the boat lined up into the slip. I think in principle they might be good, but in actual practice, I wouldn't touch them with any length pole. You would be surprised how your ability to handle your boat goes up in proportion to the desire to prevent it from getting scratched. John Richard s/v Jack's Place
Like John Farnsworth, I also have the same boat you are refering to. Another post suggested there would not be enough room for the installation which is what I immediately thought about when I first read the initial posting. Also like John F. said, the last thing you need is for with good intentions to help during your entry into a slip. My technique is to do the maneuver while coasting. Any outside help is going to screw up my intended line. Every time I have received assistance, the boat ends up with a dock stripe on its hull. And finally, we used to have a Freedom 40 directly across from us. It had a thruster and the slip was a down wind variety. The few times I saw its owner using it, it appeared that it offered inadaquate help in getting the boat lined up into the slip. I think in principle they might be good, but in actual practice, I wouldn't touch them with any length pole. You would be surprised how your ability to handle your boat goes up in proportion to the desire to prevent it from getting scratched. John Richard s/v Jack's Place
Ok I give up!
I think you got an answer from an owner that has a 410 about the difficulty of installing the thruster. I belive that was the question you asked. I have enjoyed the time I have spent on this site, but clearly I am a moron, a bad skipper and worse a bad sailor. So, I wish you well and think if you want to ask a question that needs teck help, don't ask it here if you have a thruster, an inmast or in boom furling, an engine, or auto pilot etc. because it just shows your are as bad a captain as I have been and are as unworthy to pilot a sail boat of the hunter variety that I have been. There is no boat that hunter has built that needs an auto pilot, thurster, autohelm, speed, depth, etc. I wish they would quit offering them as accesories on their 200K plus boats as they are totaly unneeded. It give me pause to understand that there is not a real skipper out there that has a wind instument as the wind in your face is all you need!! I have sold my boat due to health reasons, but have enjoyed this post. Clearly I am out of touch. Good Bye, and good sailing to those of you with out an attitude! Ed
I think you got an answer from an owner that has a 410 about the difficulty of installing the thruster. I belive that was the question you asked. I have enjoyed the time I have spent on this site, but clearly I am a moron, a bad skipper and worse a bad sailor. So, I wish you well and think if you want to ask a question that needs teck help, don't ask it here if you have a thruster, an inmast or in boom furling, an engine, or auto pilot etc. because it just shows your are as bad a captain as I have been and are as unworthy to pilot a sail boat of the hunter variety that I have been. There is no boat that hunter has built that needs an auto pilot, thurster, autohelm, speed, depth, etc. I wish they would quit offering them as accesories on their 200K plus boats as they are totaly unneeded. It give me pause to understand that there is not a real skipper out there that has a wind instument as the wind in your face is all you need!! I have sold my boat due to health reasons, but have enjoyed this post. Clearly I am out of touch. Good Bye, and good sailing to those of you with out an attitude! Ed
Dear Ed and Howard
Please do not allow the occasionally misanthropic opinions here shade what I believe is truly a great resource in sailing information. I cannot recall a forum that can cover the mundane to profound in such a nice compact way. If you can sift the wheat from the chaff there is experience here a lifetime of sailing could not provide. Unfortunately there are those who feel like they are standard bearers of “sailing”. They also like to tell us what they think. Grumpy old men in training perhaps. I think a more practical approach might serve better in evaluating the level of technology that would be useful to sailers. I know for a fact, for instance, that no matter how much I practice shooting baskets I’ll never shoot as well as Michael Jordan. There are times in the San Juan Islands when there is a really nasty flood, trying to dock is something I can get right 19 times out of 20. But darn that 1 time! I do not need that stress anymore. My solution? For now I wait. And I hate it. It means some afternoons after work I don’t go out knowing the possible mess that could happen if it’s running fast when I get back. (so yes I might some day get a thruster too) The question of thrusters? Base the decision on sound practical issues. Structural, cost, skill, stress level tolerance, current and wind. From what I have seen more sailing relationships have been damaged around the docks than in open water. To me that is unforgivable.
Please do not allow the occasionally misanthropic opinions here shade what I believe is truly a great resource in sailing information. I cannot recall a forum that can cover the mundane to profound in such a nice compact way. If you can sift the wheat from the chaff there is experience here a lifetime of sailing could not provide. Unfortunately there are those who feel like they are standard bearers of “sailing”. They also like to tell us what they think. Grumpy old men in training perhaps. I think a more practical approach might serve better in evaluating the level of technology that would be useful to sailers. I know for a fact, for instance, that no matter how much I practice shooting baskets I’ll never shoot as well as Michael Jordan. There are times in the San Juan Islands when there is a really nasty flood, trying to dock is something I can get right 19 times out of 20. But darn that 1 time! I do not need that stress anymore. My solution? For now I wait. And I hate it. It means some afternoons after work I don’t go out knowing the possible mess that could happen if it’s running fast when I get back. (so yes I might some day get a thruster too) The question of thrusters? Base the decision on sound practical issues. Structural, cost, skill, stress level tolerance, current and wind. From what I have seen more sailing relationships have been damaged around the docks than in open water. To me that is unforgivable.
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