I am considering installing a bow thruster on my Passage 42. I sail on the Chesapeake and with the boating density increasing it seems to be more and more difficult manuvering in most marina's today. Or maybe just age and slower reflexes. Has anyone done this modification and could they advise the size of thruster for the 42, a reasonable location inside the hull and possibly a good yard in the Annapolis area that could accomplish this at a reasonable price. I would appreciate any comments on sailing performance post installation.
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I'm With Dan
This is our first summer with the 42 and I am already thinking about a bow thruster. What we are finding is that the boat has a fair amount of windage with the dodger, bimini, and raised rear cabin roof. It can be a handful in a side wind. I have a couple of friends with trawlers that havee 4 HP bow thrusters and they seem to be fairly effective. I am guessing either a 4 or 6 HP thruster would be enough. I don't know if you would have to remove the forward water tank, or possibly the thruster could be mounted just behind and below the forward tank. there is a storage are in that area and access to the bilge in that area. One benefit of the 42 is that it already has a set of BIG power cables running to the bow for the windless. It would be unlikely that the windless and the thruster would be in use at the same time so it might be possible to use the same power source for both units. Just a thought.
This is our first summer with the 42 and I am already thinking about a bow thruster. What we are finding is that the boat has a fair amount of windage with the dodger, bimini, and raised rear cabin roof. It can be a handful in a side wind. I have a couple of friends with trawlers that havee 4 HP bow thrusters and they seem to be fairly effective. I am guessing either a 4 or 6 HP thruster would be enough. I don't know if you would have to remove the forward water tank, or possibly the thruster could be mounted just behind and below the forward tank. there is a storage are in that area and access to the bilge in that area. One benefit of the 42 is that it already has a set of BIG power cables running to the bow for the windless. It would be unlikely that the windless and the thruster would be in use at the same time so it might be possible to use the same power source for both units. Just a thought.
It may be a sailboat...
outside of the harbor, but inside the tight confines of most crammed-to-the-gills marinas, it's a 10 ton, underpowered, single-screw accident waiting to happen. Sailboaters are, by necessity, the most skilled operators of power boats in tight quarters anywhere. Any captain who thinks he needs something to be safer ought to exercise his own good judgement. Just my opinion. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
outside of the harbor, but inside the tight confines of most crammed-to-the-gills marinas, it's a 10 ton, underpowered, single-screw accident waiting to happen. Sailboaters are, by necessity, the most skilled operators of power boats in tight quarters anywhere. Any captain who thinks he needs something to be safer ought to exercise his own good judgement. Just my opinion. Paul sv Escape Artist h336
Not True
Manuverability does not take horsepower. It requires a certain level of skill. Skills are aquired from learning the fundimentals and practise. Yes, you can install thrusters on your boat, but if you are doing so without having the skill of handleing your boat without them, the price is too high. After gaining the skills, why do you need them? I've seen 50' yacths docked under sail in crowded marinas. I've also seen 22' boats that the skipper couldn't dock to save his life. The difference, boat handleing skill!
Manuverability does not take horsepower. It requires a certain level of skill. Skills are aquired from learning the fundimentals and practise. Yes, you can install thrusters on your boat, but if you are doing so without having the skill of handleing your boat without them, the price is too high. After gaining the skills, why do you need them? I've seen 50' yacths docked under sail in crowded marinas. I've also seen 22' boats that the skipper couldn't dock to save his life. The difference, boat handleing skill!
Skill?
So, I guess when the captain of a 90,000-ton cruise ship uses his side thrusters, it's just because he doesn't have enough skill to get the boat docked without them. They should hire you to dock those boats for them.
So, I guess when the captain of a 90,000-ton cruise ship uses his side thrusters, it's just because he doesn't have enough skill to get the boat docked without them. They should hire you to dock those boats for them.
Why not?
Shall we tear out the halyard winches and go back to deadeyes? Shall we dump the anchor windlass and install a capstan? Is it time to toss the roller furling gear? Are we ready to jettison all the miraculous electronics gsdgets we have on board? No? Then let's continue our advance into 21st century sailing. Figure out which thruster you need and stick it in.
Shall we tear out the halyard winches and go back to deadeyes? Shall we dump the anchor windlass and install a capstan? Is it time to toss the roller furling gear? Are we ready to jettison all the miraculous electronics gsdgets we have on board? No? Then let's continue our advance into 21st century sailing. Figure out which thruster you need and stick it in.
Bow Thruster + & -
The problem with the Passage 42 and some, or even most, of the larger Hunters is they have a lot of windage and, with the shoal draft keel, very little keel cross-section area. When the boat is moving slowly as one usually needs to do while docking it's very easy for an adverse wind to make a mess of ones proposed docking plan. In the olden days, as my daughter calls them, sailboats had large keel areas and consequently had less side slippage which tended to make docking easier under most circumstances. Thruster plus: can help to counteract the adverse windage. Most boaters today sail shorthanded and the "little woman" is left to figure out what the captain wants and control this 20,000 pound monster which is often asking for a lot. The distance from the deck to the dock on these floating condos is usually too much to expect a lady to jump. Adding "line handlers" on the dock that often pull on lines the wrong way or when you don't need them to pull (like pull the bow in when you don't want them to) is no help either. Thruster minus: Is one more thing to operate and control at a time when things can get really busy. Kinda like operating a cell phone while driving in town. Bottom line: I've seen a number of powerboaters really botch their docking because they were relied on their thruster to bail them out and couldn't get their act together. If you can operate a backhoe then a thruster should be no problem. If not, well, it might allow you to get into a bigger pickle. A guy I worked with once said about 4-wheel drive: "It allows you to get more stuck". To some degree the same can be said of a thruster only messing things up in boats is LOT more expensive than getting a car stuck.
The problem with the Passage 42 and some, or even most, of the larger Hunters is they have a lot of windage and, with the shoal draft keel, very little keel cross-section area. When the boat is moving slowly as one usually needs to do while docking it's very easy for an adverse wind to make a mess of ones proposed docking plan. In the olden days, as my daughter calls them, sailboats had large keel areas and consequently had less side slippage which tended to make docking easier under most circumstances. Thruster plus: can help to counteract the adverse windage. Most boaters today sail shorthanded and the "little woman" is left to figure out what the captain wants and control this 20,000 pound monster which is often asking for a lot. The distance from the deck to the dock on these floating condos is usually too much to expect a lady to jump. Adding "line handlers" on the dock that often pull on lines the wrong way or when you don't need them to pull (like pull the bow in when you don't want them to) is no help either. Thruster minus: Is one more thing to operate and control at a time when things can get really busy. Kinda like operating a cell phone while driving in town. Bottom line: I've seen a number of powerboaters really botch their docking because they were relied on their thruster to bail them out and couldn't get their act together. If you can operate a backhoe then a thruster should be no problem. If not, well, it might allow you to get into a bigger pickle. A guy I worked with once said about 4-wheel drive: "It allows you to get more stuck". To some degree the same can be said of a thruster only messing things up in boats is LOT more expensive than getting a car stuck.
Thruster on 426 DS
I agree that skill is the word here - however I don't have enough to always dock my boat short handed without my bow truster. I have been comming and going from a dock in Mystic this week with 6 inches of clearance between the stationary pilings and a boat 6 inches away on the other side. The 426 is 14 feet wide. Manuvering it into this space with just my wife and I and needing to "lasso" the pilings with lines on the way in to secure the bow, then have her leave the boat to grab a stern line is quite a feat. Have not had a problem - but let me tell you without the bow thruster and with the windage on this boat at the SLOW speed this is being done would be beyond my skill level. That is not to say I can't handle the boat - just to say that if I live another 100 years take another 100 docking lessons and always came to and from this dock - no way! The bow truster allows me to make adjustmentments in the inch range by just giving it a slight bump - no way to accomplish this with a single screw 56 HP engine and this weight boat. I have liked the bow truster, and it usally is just sitting there quite and not used - but when needed it is great. I agree with other writers on this link - I used to have a handheld GPS - now I have a color chart plotter - I like the plotter better. Doesn't mean I don't hand plot every passage, dead recon each leg and keep a chart handy, but the modern convieneces are quite nice. If you think you would like/need a thruster Why Not?
I agree that skill is the word here - however I don't have enough to always dock my boat short handed without my bow truster. I have been comming and going from a dock in Mystic this week with 6 inches of clearance between the stationary pilings and a boat 6 inches away on the other side. The 426 is 14 feet wide. Manuvering it into this space with just my wife and I and needing to "lasso" the pilings with lines on the way in to secure the bow, then have her leave the boat to grab a stern line is quite a feat. Have not had a problem - but let me tell you without the bow thruster and with the windage on this boat at the SLOW speed this is being done would be beyond my skill level. That is not to say I can't handle the boat - just to say that if I live another 100 years take another 100 docking lessons and always came to and from this dock - no way! The bow truster allows me to make adjustmentments in the inch range by just giving it a slight bump - no way to accomplish this with a single screw 56 HP engine and this weight boat. I have liked the bow truster, and it usally is just sitting there quite and not used - but when needed it is great. I agree with other writers on this link - I used to have a handheld GPS - now I have a color chart plotter - I like the plotter better. Doesn't mean I don't hand plot every passage, dead recon each leg and keep a chart handy, but the modern convieneces are quite nice. If you think you would like/need a thruster Why Not?
Thruster Cost Effectiveness
For those who have been "thinking" about a thruster there is something one can add to rationalize the cost: Figure just one accident which involves a collision with another boat and you could probably buy a thruster. If a person was injured in the process then a justification is a slam-dunk. There is practically nothing today, in the way of an "owie" that wouldn't cost a couple thousand. Scratched gel coat: estimates, haul boat, yard costs, specialists to exactly match the paint, spray, etc., heck, that's $1,500 easily. Bent stanchions, scratched or bent toe rail, you're up to $2,000 or $2,500. Snagged anchor and bent pulpit, running lights and wiring, well, now we're starting to talk real $K bucks. Doesn't take much. AND, now your insurance rates go up! Someone was on the boat you hit and fell into something (ouch) while your boat hit them - $$$. In the long run a bow thruster could be cheap insurance. If you think you want one and the above makes any sense, go buy it! Consider it as cheap insurance. And.... you might even please the admiral in the process. How does this help justification? But I still kinda like the 4-wheel drive analogy.
For those who have been "thinking" about a thruster there is something one can add to rationalize the cost: Figure just one accident which involves a collision with another boat and you could probably buy a thruster. If a person was injured in the process then a justification is a slam-dunk. There is practically nothing today, in the way of an "owie" that wouldn't cost a couple thousand. Scratched gel coat: estimates, haul boat, yard costs, specialists to exactly match the paint, spray, etc., heck, that's $1,500 easily. Bent stanchions, scratched or bent toe rail, you're up to $2,000 or $2,500. Snagged anchor and bent pulpit, running lights and wiring, well, now we're starting to talk real $K bucks. Doesn't take much. AND, now your insurance rates go up! Someone was on the boat you hit and fell into something (ouch) while your boat hit them - $$$. In the long run a bow thruster could be cheap insurance. If you think you want one and the above makes any sense, go buy it! Consider it as cheap insurance. And.... you might even please the admiral in the process. How does this help justification? But I still kinda like the 4-wheel drive analogy.
Thruster for me
Try sailing on your own all the time. Getting in and out of tight spots. Just about to pull in and yep the wind picks up. Reversing in, oops that wind has pushed me towards the starboard pylon. Never mind a little burst on the thruster to bring the bow over. Sounds easier than doing the lot on you own.
Try sailing on your own all the time. Getting in and out of tight spots. Just about to pull in and yep the wind picks up. Reversing in, oops that wind has pushed me towards the starboard pylon. Never mind a little burst on the thruster to bring the bow over. Sounds easier than doing the lot on you own.
Hi Dan, we have a P42 and encounter many of...
the same conditions that you do. The P42 has considerable freeboard, which makes casting off and docking a bit tricky at times, but that is part of the challenge that excites me about sailing. I know I will never install thrusters on our boat. I can imagine what would happen if I needed to use the thrusters and they would not come on, or worse, they came on and they would not shut off (true story). They, like most all systems on the boat, will fail when you need it most. Just my humble opinion. Terry
the same conditions that you do. The P42 has considerable freeboard, which makes casting off and docking a bit tricky at times, but that is part of the challenge that excites me about sailing. I know I will never install thrusters on our boat. I can imagine what would happen if I needed to use the thrusters and they would not come on, or worse, they came on and they would not shut off (true story). They, like most all systems on the boat, will fail when you need it most. Just my humble opinion. Terry
Future Tech!
I want a wind augmented, computer controlled GPS integrated video motion detector guided engine bow thruster system that will dock my boat with a press of a button. Using two x10 video cameras on the port and bow feeding into my laptop, a program written in .NET analyzes the shapes of the pilings and dock, in real time. Compass, Wind and NEMA inputs from a GPS are also used as additional inputs into the program. Outputs are rudder, throttle, transmission, and bow thrusters. You train the system by hitting a record button and dock your boat under ideal conditions. Then any other time just hit the magic "Dock" button and the computer docks your boat for you. Just like a welder trains a welding robot. I predict in the next 5 years you will see such a system. That is when I have time to build it
Stirling Hasen, Hunter 54
I want a wind augmented, computer controlled GPS integrated video motion detector guided engine bow thruster system that will dock my boat with a press of a button. Using two x10 video cameras on the port and bow feeding into my laptop, a program written in .NET analyzes the shapes of the pilings and dock, in real time. Compass, Wind and NEMA inputs from a GPS are also used as additional inputs into the program. Outputs are rudder, throttle, transmission, and bow thrusters. You train the system by hitting a record button and dock your boat under ideal conditions. Then any other time just hit the magic "Dock" button and the computer docks your boat for you. Just like a welder trains a welding robot. I predict in the next 5 years you will see such a system. That is when I have time to build it
Stirling Hasen, Hunter 54Thruster
Dan, I saw a project like this done on a large boat this Spring. It was a Hunter 46 and the boat was in Tidewater Marina in Havre de Grace, Maryland. They have pictures of this project on the link below. You might try contacting them as they are only a days sail away from you.
Dan, I saw a project like this done on a large boat this Spring. It was a Hunter 46 and the boat was in Tidewater Marina in Havre de Grace, Maryland. They have pictures of this project on the link below. You might try contacting them as they are only a days sail away from you.
Alan, you lose me on this one,
I have wanted a bow thruster since '86 and I have a 34!!! I can sail in and out of a slip and have done so many times but,,,when that '34s modern underbody yielded its' ugly side, I prefer to anchor out. Of course, sometimes I (we) can't. Anybody know of a thruster for the 34? And Stirling, YOU are my kind of guy and my new hero.
I have wanted a bow thruster since '86 and I have a 34!!! I can sail in and out of a slip and have done so many times but,,,when that '34s modern underbody yielded its' ugly side, I prefer to anchor out. Of course, sometimes I (we) can't. Anybody know of a thruster for the 34? And Stirling, YOU are my kind of guy and my new hero.
Bow Thruster Summary
I appreciate the responses, although I didn't expect to set off any philosophical anti- technology tirades. Special thanks to David Knauer who gave me exactly the lead I was hoping for. I will post my outcome after contacting Tidewater. I would also argue that in an area as congested as the Chesapeake in a configuration such as the P42 (high freeboard, lots of windage and somewhat underpropped) the market for thrusters will grow. Witness the options list on most new boats over 40 feet.
I appreciate the responses, although I didn't expect to set off any philosophical anti- technology tirades. Special thanks to David Knauer who gave me exactly the lead I was hoping for. I will post my outcome after contacting Tidewater. I would also argue that in an area as congested as the Chesapeake in a configuration such as the P42 (high freeboard, lots of windage and somewhat underpropped) the market for thrusters will grow. Witness the options list on most new boats over 40 feet.
Bow thrusters are either electric or hydraulic. The hydraulic bow thrusters are usually found in large boats, 50 feet or greater. The electric bow thrusters use 12 volts for the smaller units and 24 volts for the larger units. One of the smallest bow thruster available uses a 4 - 11/32" tunnel and is rated at 2 Hp output. For your sailboat, you have to calculate the thrust force you need for the wind speed you need the bow thruster to operate at. You can look at the manufacturer's web page and calculate the size of bow thruster you need. You can order the electric bow thruster and bow tunnel and either do the work yourself or have it done by a boatyard. You need to do extensive fiberglass to put in the bow tunnel. The electric bow thrusters are usually rated to operate continuously for 3 to 4 minutes in a one hour time period; if you run them longer, the motor will overheat. The electric motor operates at high speed, so normally you jog the electric bow thrusters for 5 - 10 seconds at a time to move the bow. You should have a dedicated battery bank for the electric bow thrusters. The smallest electric bow thruster is rated at 2 Hp and cost about $1,495, the 4 - 11/32" fiberglass tunnel cost $180, the control panel $165. You also need to add the cost of the cables, fuse, batteries, and the fiberglass work. The smallest electric bow thruster is suppose to be able to fit on a 30 footer powerboat. It's an expensive item, but the cost of damaging your sailboat if you can't dock in high winds might be more. You can find the electric bow thruster and bow thruster tunnel at West Marine or buy directly from the manufacturer. Check the link. Fair Winds, Clyde
Heros Have Come Full Circle!!!
Boy! A couple decades ago people couldn't read enough about Lin and Larry Pardey's adventures in their enginless and batteryless boat. Wood, no less. If it didn't run on keorsene they didn't have it. Oh, for Peggy, then there was oaken bucket... No smelly hoses to change on this boat! Now we have a new super hero - Stirling Hasen! (please step on stage and take a bow). I Gotta totally agree with Fred - he's got an absolutely great idea there with an integrated electronic docking system. With so many people having laptops and boat electronics being linked together it certainly seems technically feasible. In fact, there are some cheap LED distance measuring devices that could provide the exact distances to a dock, or if they rotated, to anything else. With OCR type software the computer could decipher certain inputs to decide automatically what it's dealing with. Dan - hold off buying that thing until you find one with at least a firewire connection. Based on the ideas here whatever you get right now is already outdated! They say the economy is supposed to turn around so here is the big question to Stirling, do you want incorporate and go public while the market is still trying to go up? We could ask Phil if we can sell shares on his web site.
Boy! A couple decades ago people couldn't read enough about Lin and Larry Pardey's adventures in their enginless and batteryless boat. Wood, no less. If it didn't run on keorsene they didn't have it. Oh, for Peggy, then there was oaken bucket... No smelly hoses to change on this boat! Now we have a new super hero - Stirling Hasen! (please step on stage and take a bow). I Gotta totally agree with Fred - he's got an absolutely great idea there with an integrated electronic docking system. With so many people having laptops and boat electronics being linked together it certainly seems technically feasible. In fact, there are some cheap LED distance measuring devices that could provide the exact distances to a dock, or if they rotated, to anything else. With OCR type software the computer could decipher certain inputs to decide automatically what it's dealing with. Dan - hold off buying that thing until you find one with at least a firewire connection. Based on the ideas here whatever you get right now is already outdated! They say the economy is supposed to turn around so here is the big question to Stirling, do you want incorporate and go public while the market is still trying to go up? We could ask Phil if we can sell shares on his web site.
Alternate bow motion solution
I sail San Francisco Bay where exit strategies have funded some very interesting boats and options. What trips the trigger of another sailor is none of my business. If Dan feels a bow thruster will improve his sailing experience…sobeit. Clyde's estimates reveal that the addition of a thruster may cost upwards of $2-$3K. A 4"+ hole in the bow probably won’t improve sailing characteristics and Murphy's laws dictate that any unexpected maintenance needed for this widget will probably require removing the vessel from the water. For a feature whose use is infrequent, would a trolling motor suffice? Minn Kota, MotorGuide and Evinrude produce motors which would clamp onto an anchor roller, provide complete remote control (steering, direction and thrust) and can be stored in a small locker. With all the options it will be hard to spend over $700.
I sail San Francisco Bay where exit strategies have funded some very interesting boats and options. What trips the trigger of another sailor is none of my business. If Dan feels a bow thruster will improve his sailing experience…sobeit. Clyde's estimates reveal that the addition of a thruster may cost upwards of $2-$3K. A 4"+ hole in the bow probably won’t improve sailing characteristics and Murphy's laws dictate that any unexpected maintenance needed for this widget will probably require removing the vessel from the water. For a feature whose use is infrequent, would a trolling motor suffice? Minn Kota, MotorGuide and Evinrude produce motors which would clamp onto an anchor roller, provide complete remote control (steering, direction and thrust) and can be stored in a small locker. With all the options it will be hard to spend over $700.
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