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Bow Falls off!

macwho

.
Jul 24, 2015
20
Catalina 30 TRBSWK Sandusky BPM
We have a 93 mark II with tall rig, bow sprit & wing keel. I just launched today to test new rudder and prop we installed. Aside from that I noticed that it still will not track when I turn into the wind to dock. It keeps drifting to leeward towards my neighbors boat. I had to reverse to prevent contact And it would not turn towards my slip going forward. I had to back into my dock to get there. No sails mounted yet, this was under power. I can touch very close to 30 degrees apparent when tacking but when tracking I seem to be drifting off course (GPS) and need to make a lot of course corrections. Are the two related IE a quirk of the wing keel or something else at slow speed because the bow catches the wind. What should I do to control this. This is Lake Erie and we get frequent 10 to20 knot winds from the east to north-east. Thanks for any help, was on the hard 2 years to do repairs.
 
Mar 6, 2008
481
Catalina 1999 C36 MKII #1787 Coyote Point Marina, CA.
You may need to go faster to control the boat
 
Jul 23, 2009
277
Beneteau 88 First 285 Grand Lake, Oklahoma
A tall rig with a short (wing) keel will have more slip but...

2 years to repair what?
How much sailing experience do you have?
 
Feb 26, 2004
20,849
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Are the two related IE a quirk of the wing keel or something else at slow speed because the bow catches the wind. What should I do to control this.
Under motor, you might consider going faster to allow the ruder to work.

Get your head out of the screen.

I think THOSE are related. Otherwise, nope.

Wing keels do leeway better than fin keels.

It takes some time to learn your own boat's characteristics..

Good luck.
 
Jun 8, 2004
2,302
Catalina 320 Dana Point
I just launched today to test new rudder and prop we installed.
So a disappointing test ? Hard to tell from a distance but sounds like you need to double check for straight, true and solid bond on the post and rudder if it's not responding appropriate to helm inputs.
 

macwho

.
Jul 24, 2015
20
Catalina 30 TRBSWK Sandusky BPM
I am entering the dock around 1 knot where I have rudder control, I could try faster( but I do remember PT 109 the movie). Complete rewire of AC and DC. Stripped bottom of 17 different coats of bottom paint. polished 15 years of UV damage to gel coat. Updated most sail controls. Led all lines to cockpit. Drilled and epoxied most thru deck fittings. Replaced all engine Hoses. Replaced Raw water pump. Rebuilt starter, alternator. etc. Generally redid 15 years of poor Maintenance. Still need to change water lines to pex & replace fill hoses and vent lines so we can trust our water system. About 70 % done refinishing teak. also reman of mast first year. Still a lot to do, but it seems more manageable now. I do not fear being towed in every time we go out now. Started sailing in 1975 break from 1995 to 2015 When we bought our 30. Have taken boating and sailing courses from USPS. I think the large surface area above the water is what I have trouble accounting for? Under sail I have good control . Could it be a balance problem, We get a lot of squat under power and the bow seems light. We did get a good buy on our boat.
 
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May 24, 2004
6,045
CC 30 South Florida
Keep up the speed necessary to maintain steerage. Standing behind the wheel with no steerage is fruitless. get up and go fend the boat off or cast some lines.
 
Jul 23, 2009
277
Beneteau 88 First 285 Grand Lake, Oklahoma
Sounds like you have done a lot of work to the boat. Nice.
The squat under power in normal, you are catching the bow wave.
Enter your slip a little faster and you should be fine.
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,152
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
Have taken boating and sailing courses from USPS.
I thought this might be interesting, but I suspect you meant USCG. My friend had a wing keel when we had our Catalina and we would spend time on each others boat comparing performance. Good times and plenty beer afterwards.
 

macwho

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Jul 24, 2015
20
Catalina 30 TRBSWK Sandusky BPM
I think you are correct about the speed. I think I am cutting power too soon thinking I will still complete turn but I don't. I will try more speed and hold off cutting power and reversing longer. Locally we have United States Power Squadrons. I did most of my sailing on a English twin keel, which had very good response. Also the Catalina is 11' longer, Which I understand gives less feel type feedback? Thanks for all the answers. Will Try some more.
 

RoyS

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Jun 3, 2012
613
Hunter 33 Bay Pointe, Quincy
You still need to go slowly into your slip. You cannot safely go faster than one knot. Crawl in. Try to come in at an angle slightly into your dock so that the bow will contact first. Straighten out just before contact so that you contact about mid-ship. In that brief moment, have someone step off with a pre-measured spring line attached to the midpoint cleat on your boat. They should then quickly walk back toward the first cleat on the end of your slip and drop the loop over that cleat. You at this point should be motoring very slowly forward in your slip. When that spring line becomes tight your boat should pull in and lay nicely against the dock still motoring in forward but now stationary. Leave the boat motoring at idle in forward and attach the rest of your dock-lines leisurely. During your approach, the person with the pre-measured spring line should stand outside the lifelines while holding onto the stays for balance. You can contact the dock near the end cleat so that the person with the spring line is practically stepping down at the end cleat. Experiment while at your dock using the spring line as described until you are confident that it alone will bring your boat against the dock and hold it there. No need for anxiety when docking as this procedure is pretty simple.
 
Apr 5, 2009
870
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
I use the technique described by RoyS to single-hand my C30 tr/bs into my slip except that I use the primary winch instead of the midship cleat. The Mid cleat causes my boat to turn bow in but the primary winch holds it straight to the slip. Single handing, I use the boat hook to loop the dock line over the stern-most dock cleat. I then bump the trans in/out of forward until the line come tight and then put into forward and adjust the wheel to get the angle I want. With that one line from winch to stern dock cleat with boat in forward, the boat will move as long as the engine is running. I use the same system to leave the slip. It let me disconnect all other lines a board without worrying about the boat drifting. When leaving, I make sure that the single dock line is only hooking the aft horn so that I will fall off when I back out. Easy Peasy.
 
Sep 22, 2018
861
Hunter 216 Kingston
Something that I’ve done on a fairly windless day to get a feel for slow speed, turning ability is to practice near a buoy as it’s a stationary object. Nothing to hit, no audience etc. Try from different angles to the wind so you get a feel for how much you get pushed off your desired course. Then when you approach a dock you have confidence in what the boat is going to do. Remember its rarely the same docking experience each time even at your own slip. Knowing when to give the throttle a little hit rather than guessing and having things get worse helps to keep the stress level down.
 
Oct 22, 2014
11,138
CAL 35 Cruiser Portland OR, moored EVERETT WA
We get a lot of squat under power and the bow seems light.
Two thoughts for you.
  1. You might check your prop. You got a great deal for the boat so there is no way of knowing it the previous owner has the best prop for your boat. I had a squatting problem when I powered up to hull speed. This is the prop that was on the boat when I bought it.
    Prop.JPG
    I changed to a prop called a CampbellSailor. Made by WestbyNorth.com
    Here is what the new prop looks like.
    IMG_3443.JPG
    It generates more straight thrust with negligible squat. At cruising power I gained a full knot. An improved prop may also help you.
  2. The docking procedure I now use is kind of like what @RoyS shared, only no one has to jump off the boat and try to do anything. Not having to jump makes me happier and everyone safer.
    It is explained in this video. Docking using a Stern Bridle.
 
Last edited:
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macwho

.
Jul 24, 2015
20
Catalina 30 TRBSWK Sandusky BPM
We changed to a Michigan wheel (3 blade 13" 12 pitch), we had a 2 blade 13" 12 pitch. We may drop pitch a little as We cannot hit max RPM's, 3000 instead of 3200.
much better response. Sitting empty we are 3-6" above water line as measured from factory stripes at the bow. Stern is at water line. I basically single hand also
and I looped a premeasured line on outer cleat and let it pull up square to dock from a mid cleat. I need to go back to that method as it is safer This last time I did not get close enough before it blew me over and I had to reverse to protect neighbor. This was why I changed the prop. Since you pivot around your keel when you turn I have a hard time understanding how the bow can move across so fast when it should have the resistance from the keel and rudder to hold it or slow it. It only is a problem when apparent wind is 30-60 degrees off the bow, and 10 knots and above in wind speed. This may be a characteristic of my boat I need to figure out how to respond to. I practiced on the lake and it takes power and speed to hold steady, way too much to use when docking. I did not try practicing with a buoy which I will soon try. Thanks.
 
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Jul 23, 2009
277
Beneteau 88 First 285 Grand Lake, Oklahoma
10 knots at 60 degrees in tight quarters sounds like a challenge to me. My slip is easy to get in & out of, but a little more challenging when the wind is off the beam. A friend of mine has a slip near Detroit and the wind seems to always be off the beam, he has a real difficult time getting out of the slip. He needs through a line over a piling and back out against it to help turn the boat.

You need to how your boat acts when you slide it into reverse to stop. Some will turn abruptly, some won't.
 
Oct 22, 2014
11,138
CAL 35 Cruiser Portland OR, moored EVERETT WA
I have a hard time understanding how the bow can move across so fast
The Catalina 30 Fin Keel and aprox pivot point (red line)...
Cat30.jpg
Your undercarriage really has very little at the bow to stop the bow from being pushed over.

Compare it to a Westsail 32 with Full keel..
westsail_32_drawing.jpg

YOu can turn a tight circle because of your fin keel. The west sail can not. Your sports car like nimbleness means you will be more squirreley when the wind is pushing boats around. The west sail will be more affected by currents than the Cat 30.
You sail faster and turn quicker, the West sail sails a straight line with out really trying.
 
Jun 2, 2018
14
Catalina 310 Port Orchard
I am entering the dock around 1 knot where I have rudder control, I could try faster...
I come in at 2.1 kts. Keep the engine engaged so the prop wash over the rudder gives you more control. I have a 3 bladed 13x10 prop, and it will stop me in about 5 feet of travel from that speed. Your astern thrust will probably kick your stern to port, so plan to accommodate that. Don't come in idling in astern, as it will just walk your boat, not stop you.

Go find a mooring buoy, and practice "docking" repeatedly at it, coming from different wind directions, until you are familiar with your boat characteristics. Practice spinning your boat in place so you can get out of tight spaces (helm hard to stbd, alternately pulse ahead and astern)... note Clockwise rotation works better.
 
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macwho

.
Jul 24, 2015
20
Catalina 30 TRBSWK Sandusky BPM
The Catalina 30 Fin Keel and aprox pivot point (red line)...
View attachment 169911
Your undercarriage really has very little at the bow to stop the bow from being pushed over.

Compare it to a Westsail 32 with Full keel..
View attachment 169912

YOu can turn a tight circle because of your fin keel. The west sail can not. Your sports car like nimbleness means you will be more squirreley when the wind is pushing boats around. The west sail will be more affected by currents than the Cat 30.
You sail faster and turn quicker, the West sail sails a straight line with out really trying.
Good analogy, That makes sense. Now to learn to handle squirreley.