Bottom Paint Help

[solodare]

So one of the PO's bottom painted.....
When i got the boat I knew nothing about sailboats so the fact that the bottom was sanded down and ready for a fresh coat seemed like less work for me
plus I would have a fresh start and have a better understanding of when it needed to be re applied.
I only sail in lakes and I never leave the boat in water so what kind of bottom paint do I use?
Will Ablative just wear off to easy loading and unloading?
Hard will hold up longer but how long? (I'm thinking this is for me because I don't plan on owning this boat for ever) HOWEVER the thought of telling the next owner it has hard paint on it seem like a heavy bomb to drop on a guy seeing as how hard it will be to remove the hard once the anti-fouling is used up.
Then there's the Hybrids.

Its all to much.... plus I'm broke.... and also the boat has a big leak that I cant find..... OH and I have no idea what type of paint was used before so who knows if what I pick will stick to whats left of the old right?

I am no expert but the hull seems to fare gone to worry to much about it. there a lot of chips in the gel-coat... i keep finding more and more spots that have been repair in the past. Spots that at least don't look very good, structurally they seem strong...

Its all getting to be over whelming..... Where do I start.... Where do I draw the line... I don't mind learning as I go but I don't have the money to just go trial and error.

The Leak is another thing! the water is collecting in the bow bilge. I cant find any wholes. Two spots of concern that I see.
1. the rub rail near the bow has a huge gap on the bottom side but Im not seeing water on the inside hull or on the bunk in the bow. I guess it could be running down and going into the bilge before I can get a good look at it....
2. the bottom paint has been sanded down and at least in one spot near the lower bow its so thin that light can be seen coming in to the bilge. Could water be seeping in through the fiberglass? Its about a gallon per hour I think. I DON'T KNOW!!!!
I stripped the whole interior out and removed the bow foam flotation in preparation for the next outing. In hopes that I can send my son down below to look for the leak while we are sailing....
ANY BODY WANT TO BUY A VENTURE 22 in MINT condition????:Liar: okay like new....:Liarkay almost like new :Liar:OKAY OKAY for parts????

 

[DHaranSailor]

Sorry for your woes.

Starting in a logical order my $0.02;

Fiberglass is water permeable hence blisters and other fun things. If you have a spot on your hull that you can see light through that is a major structural issue. Some fiberglass layups are in order there before you start thinking of bottom unless you lay up on the inside.

For the bottom paint if it is not living in water it is a very flexible issue. The anti-fouling in it is for extended time in the water. A few day trips will not need it. I am doing my bottom in Brightsides for the look and appeal since it will not be living in the water. So you are good on that front.

To your point about the adhesion is spot on. My understanding is ablative will adhere to any sub pain so it is the safest.

 

[Joe]

In general... and I mean traditionally... the modified epoxy bottom paints are most effective for boats that stay in the water... because air and sun will accelerate the emissive nature of the anti fouling properties. Ablative paints have TRADITIONALLY been preferred for trailered and dry stored boats because their sloughing method of anti fouling is not affected by air and sun.

Therefore, the short answer is to simply slap on a few coats of inexpensive ablative paint...check that item off the list... then start looking for the leaks.

Whether you sail in fresh or salt water, there will still be growth on the bottom... I will tell you that I do not put bottom paint on my NACRA beach cat... I recently refinished it with a single part epoxy. It is stored on the trailer or pulled up on the beach if left out overnight. The brown scum that builds ....in fresh or salt water... is algae and is easily removed with some diluted, acid based toilet bowl cleaner.

If you day sail only I wouldn't even bother with anti fouling paint. If you leave the boat in the water for a week or so at a time...then you can decide.

 

[solodare]

DHaran,
Thanks for the info, So how possible is it that my boat was manufactured with out a gel-coat on the lower hull section? or that it was removed and just painted with a roller.
The spots that are "permeable" do not look like they need to have "layups" in the since that its been sanded down on that point, but not like there was a chunk knocked out if that makes sense. I'm trying to understand where to start with the layups. (inside or out) I guess nothing has happened inside so the only thing that has changed would be the outside.
Dang this Boat! I just want to sail.
The cabin side is sealed under the bunk and never even been painted. its just raw... is that normal?
I think I'm going to take it to a local boat yard and see if I can get someone to give her a once over and hopefully some direction on what to do with this boat.

Joe,
I like your answer! makes sense. I may in the future do some over nighters or weekends so maybe I should go with some anti fouling. Assuming I can get her water tight!! either way I'll take any forward steps at this point!


Thanks guys.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Sorry for your woes.



Fiberglass is water permeable hence blisters and other fun things. If you have a spot on your hull that you can see light through that is a major structural issue. Some fiberglass layups are in order there before you start thinking of bottom unless you lay up on the inside.

This is incorrect. Fiberglass readily transmits light, which is why builders apply a dark coloring to keep the light from showing through. (One reason they do this so boat owners won't assume that there is something wrong with their boats.) It may be that the only thing wrong is that this coloring is missing in this area, allowing the light to show through in that spot. This is not uncommon.

Have someone knowledgeable tap around the area with a phenolic hammer or similar (or perhaps even just a screwdriver handle) to see if there is anything different in this area of the hull compared to other areas. But the presence of light per se does not indicate major structural failure or necessarily any failure at all.

 

[solodare]

Alan
so would you say its unlikely that water is passing through this area. I can tell you its sold to the touch.

Will check further tonight.

The obvious area for the leak is the rub rail. I'm assuming when the boat is heeling that there would be a good chance for the water to be forced up the side of the hull and directly into this open spot under the loose rub rail.

I guess I will first try and tighten the rub rail down in that section? Maybe add more bolts?

 

[rgranger]

I've owned a Mac 22 and two Mac 21s. And I've done a LOT of work on them.

A couple of things...

1) You don't need anti-fouling bottom paint if you are not going to leave the boat in the water more than a week at a time. I've been a trailer sailor for 40 years and regularly go on week long cruises in my boats. A quick pressure wash at the local car wash after a week in the water and you are good to go. The soft anti-fouling is a mess and gets all over your cloth and skin. I wouldn't do it. More about paint later.

2) It is normal to see light through the hull especially if the paint has been sanded off. That is not so much a worry. And leaking through the hull may not be where your water is coming from.

3) Lets talk about your leak. If the washers gaskets around the keel bolt have dry rot. Then it is REALLY common for these boats to leak around the keel bolt and lock down bolt. But you will only see this underway. Does the boat leak if it is just sitting or do you only see it when under way? You can go to a lot of trouble to repair the gaskets and I'd be happy to talk about that... but if you want a quick and dirty (temporary) fix, just smash a golf ball size wad of plumbers putty over the bolt heads and that will keep the water out of your boat.

If it turns out that you are leaking when the boat just sits tied up. Then you have more than just a keel bolt leak. A two-part barrier coat epoxy based paint would be the best choice. Two coats. Your final coat can be simple oil based Rustoleum (out of a can -- not spray). I've done this on 5 different boats and always had great results. Use the roll and tip method (google if needed or uTube) for a really nice finish. Rustoleum is a very hard enamel with great adhesion. And when you scratch up your paint job (a boat is a toy after all) you will always be able to find an exact color match and touch it up. The three boats in the attached pics all have Rustolum as the "bottom" paint. The first boat is a Mac 22 like yours, the second is a Balboa 26 and the third a Rhodes 22. You can pay for "marine" grade paint but for a trailer sailboat, I don't think the extra money makes sense.

If you don't need the barrier coat then just sand your hull smooth, fill in any goughes with JB Weld (marine grade) and paint with Rustoleum. You can get JB Weld at Walmart.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Alan
so would you say its unlikely that water is passing through this area. I can tell you its sold to the touch.

Will check further tonight.

The obvious area for the leak is the rub rail. I'm assuming when the boat is heeling that there would be a good chance for the water to be forced up the side of the hull and directly into this open spot under the loose rub rail.

I guess I will first try and tighten the rub rail down in that section? Maybe add more bolts?

Well, all I can say is that the transmission of light has no necessary bearing on the structural integrity of the glass. And if it is "solid to the touch" then I don't see how water would be passing through it in the way that you are experiencing. But just for grins, tap the area with the handle of a screwdriver. See if the sound you hear is different compared to the areas adjacent to it. No matter what, I don't see how it is the source of your leak, but it could indicate whether there might be some delamination in that spot.

 

[Joe]

Alan
so would you say its unlikely that water is passing through this area. I can tell you its sold to the touch.

Will check further tonight.

The obvious area for the leak is the rub rail. I'm assuming when the boat is heeling that there would be a good chance for the water to be forced up the side of the hull and directly into this open spot under the loose rub rail.

I guess I will first try and tighten the rub rail down in that section? Maybe add more bolts?

The rub rail covers the hull/deck joint... that is were the top of the boat meets the bottom. So look INSIDE your boat and follow the hull deck joint around as much as you can to find any obvious entry points. This joint may be hidden in places by an interior liner... but you need to inspect what you can... looking for damaged fasteners and missing caulk.

Anyway, it was very common for some mass production boat builders to cut costs in this area. I've even heard of some just using self tapping screws on a simple flush mount surface mating. Nevertheless... if you remove the rub rail completely the outside seam will be exposed and you can clean it out and re caulk the entire thing... it's actually quite a task not to damage the rub rail when removing it ... so be careful and you will save a few bucks.

You may be able to add caulk without removing the rub rail... depending on the joint type.. look underneath and if you can see the overlap. Chances are the sealant has deteriorated, so scraping out the old and re caulking with new may save you a bunch of work...

Taking your time and doing it right with this project will be very beneficial in the long run... good luck.

 

[solodare]

Yeah so i have the "shoe box" type and yes, ner the bow I can see a big gap in a spot between upper and lower deck. Out of curiosity... is that the only thing holding the 2 sections together? I would have thought that the two parts would have been permanently joined.
going out now to see about closing that gap.

 

[Joe]

Yeah so i have the "shoe box" type and yes, ner the bow I can see a big gap in a spot between upper and lower deck. Out of curiosity... is that the only thing holding the 2 sections together? I would have thought that the two parts would have been permanently joined.
going out now to see about closing that gap.

You need to do some research. Google "repairing hull/deck joints" for starters.

 

[Ken Cross]

a pretty simple trick to find your leak

First off Mac boats often have leaks. Hull/deck joints and any hull penetrations like chain plates, mast mount, etc. One method used to find leaks is to reverse flow on a shop vac and pressureize the interior with it. Now go around feeling for air flowing out. Once you have no major leaks, soapy water and look for bubbles.

Ken

 

[solodare]

so YEP, my hull deck joint is screwed!

I already want to sand the whole boat down inside and out and repaint so why not just go head and separate the dang thing and go to town?

from what i have seen so far you have to remove the rub rail and clean out all the old sealant any way to fix the hull/deck joint. this is turnning into a big dang job.
see i told you guys OCD AADD A bottom paint thread that turns into a hull separation thread. Story of my life! yesterday I went to wash out the bilge and before I knew it I was cutting grass

LOL

 

[rgranger]

so YEP, my hull deck joint is screwed!

Can you post a picture? There is a LOT of experience on this forum and I'm sure someone here can give you the do's and don'ts ... that will save you time and money.

 

[solodare]

here are a couple of pics not sure if this will help.

 

[rgranger]

I'm not sure what the middle picture is showing but from what I can see, you just need to run a bead of caulk up under the edge of your rub rail and along the inside as well. And I really don't think a gallon per hour would come through the rub rail. You might be getting rain water in your boat from that area but more likely from the chain plates. First off you would have to have the rail buried for an hour at a time... and that is some digressive sailing. I'm only guessing but based upon your expressed lack of experience, I don't think you sail hours at a time with the gunwale in the water.

I asked this once before but you did not respond. Do you only see water in the bilge if you have been sailing or does it accumulate when just sitting at the dock. If she stays dry sitting at the dock, then your hull is fine. If you only see this when underway, I'm 95% confident the water is coming from your pivot and lock down bolts from your keel trunk or a small crack around the keel trunk that gets flexed when underway. That is an easy, easy fast inexpensive fix and we can certainly talk you through it.

 

[solodare]

The middle pic(in the last post) is my pocket knife in the gap for scale. Also worth mentioning is that when trying to take pictures of the before mentioned gap that I noticed the whole bow nose area Deck/hull joint allows light to come through as well! lots of gaps up there.

I have not been back in the water since you asked that question. To be honest the Boat docks around here are so crazy and hectic that I forget to send the boy down to look for the leak and by the time I remember there's already a lot of water in there.
BTW I'm in the south and the bass fisherman will punch you in the face if your clogging up the dock waiting for a leak!:naughty: no seriously they will.

We plan on trying a new spot with a little less traffic so I will report back on this after the weekend. Maybe as soon as Friday.

also I meant to ask this before, but I keep forgetting.
So I know what the pivot bolt is. and I assume the lock down bolt is just forward of that? I do not have a lock down bolt!! and it appears that it may have ran aground and caused the hole to be ripped a bit. The PO had a toggle switched jammed in the port side of the hole and the wires for the running lights ran out the starboard side. I'll post some pics tonight of the whole thing. I suspected that open hole at first, but put some duck tape over it the last time out and did not see any water coming in that way. A visual inspection of the pivot bolt did not appear to be wet. I only had the chance to look at it while becalm so I would not be able to say that underway it was not coming from there. So the question is how tight should the pivot bolt be? it seems to be visibly slack? It does not look loose just not very tight if that makes sense. there are rubber washers on both sides. I didn't want to try and tighten that up until I knew if it should be a little loose or not. Actually I have a couple of pics that indirectly show some the areas just in case it helps.
so the first should be the pivot bolt and just above you can see the tape from what I assume is the lock down bolt hole.
the second should be the lock down bolt hole with the tape over it. (starboard side btw for both 1st and 2nd pic.
3 should be the bow just because I had the pic.
and last should be the bolt near the keel winch. What is that bolt for? ( I'm not seeing water in the area BTW)

 

[rgranger]

Those pics help a lot.

The light coming from your bow is not a problem. Once you paint the hull bottom, you won't see that anymore.

Your problem is most certainly at the winch. The bolt that you see near the keel winch is a guide that keeps the keel cable from sawing through your fiberglass trunk when you raise and lower the keel. Your rubber washers are lose and that bolt sits right at the water line. So you have a slow leak there for sure. And the hose that you see around the cable is important too. When underway, water slaps the back of the keel trunk and then "spits" up through that hose. Your hose is too short.

In the second pic I've attached, you see what my keel cable hose looked like (before restoration) and even with the extra length... I still got water spitting out the top when I was at hull speed. So I would jam a piece of sponge in the top. Jam a wad of plumbers putty over the pivot bolt and get a lock down bolt. You can make your own rubber gaskets using goop (lowes) and a big washer and some masking tape.. I maxed out the number of pics on this response so I'll put pics of that in the next post.

Don't be discouraged. The Mac 22 is easy and inexpensive to work on. I wish I had kept mine. I've attached some before and after pics of my boat so you can see that it can be a great little pocket cruiser... The older gentleman standing on in the cockpit is the PO. I also attached a PDF of a great adventure I had in my little Mac22. You can see more pictures of a restored Mac22 in that PDF

 

[rgranger]

Here are some pics showing you how to make rubber gaskets for your keel/trunk bolts.

Use the masking tape to make a dam around the washer (inner ring and outer ring). Fill the dam with liquid goop (Lowes or Walmart) and let it set overnight. Remove the tape and viola. You now have a washer with a rubber gasket for about $2. The one in this pic was made for a Balboa 26 that has a 1200lb keel so that is why the washer is so large... but you don't need anything that big.

 

[solodare]

Thanks for the help, but I like the story way more!!!!
What a great trip! Life time of memories! I can't get over it!!
I never even thought about going to the coast with this boat but now I'm ready to hit the road tonight. This changes everything... Can you PM me some tips for what you need for a trip like that?

thanks for the tips as well. The tube covering the winch cable I removed just the other day to get that deck board out of that section. I wanted to replace the tube any way or at least clean it before replacing it.
I guess these through bolts on the keel trunk just need to be snug?
Awesome story!!