Boat Yard Rules when on the hard...

[thinwater]

kenn, good question.

I would ask it a little differently:

How much does one save by doing their own bottom job?

Really. Can someone do the math for me? Savings on two gallons of paint, then labor.

In all cases, it would seem that the haulout fees, bottom pressure wash, and the environmental fees, would be exactly the same.

If that's the case, and if you agree, then what are the real savings. You can also choose to include or not the "value" of your own labor.

I look forward to learning about the economies.

I think the answer depends a good bit on your abilities and your ability to make efficient progress in a workman like manner. I have added it up, and I figure the savings comes to about $80-120 per hour, depending on the sort of project, after taxes of course. I let them haul and power wash. I've never had a problem managing sanding hull prep (vacuum sander), a coat of paint, 4-5 hours of other projects (last time I replaced a water pump, installed a teak cockpit floor, and added two FRP wear plates above the props while the paint dried) and lunch, followed by a second coat in one day. I don't fiddle around, I have all of the tools an skills professional has, and my best interests in mind. It is about being well organized and good at the crafts. I seriously doubt the marina staff could do a better job in less time, and they mark-up materials (which is fair). I've been practicing for many years on many boats, as well as many engineering projects.

For others the math will be different. If you make better than $100/hour after taxes, only work on your boat if you like to. Actually, given a choice between working on the boat (most projects) and watching TV--or being on the internet--I'd work on the boat. It's a hobby, and even bottom painting is relaxing. By all means, if it's a drag (you will never see me strip the bottom, for example) let some one else do it. I don't really work on the boat to save money.

 

[thinwater]

I think the answer depends a good bit on your abilities and your ability to make efficient progress in a workman like manner. I have added it up, and I figure the savings comes to about $80-120 per hour, depending on the sort of project, after taxes of course. I let them haul and power wash. I've never had a problem managing sanding hull prep (vacuum sander), a coat of paint, 4-5 hours of other projects (last time I replaced a water pump, installed a teak cockpit floor, and added two FRP wear plates above the props while the paint dried) and lunch, followed by a second coat in one day. I don't fiddle around, I have all of the tools an skills professional has, and my best interests in mind. It is about being well organized and good at the crafts. I seriously doubt the marina staff could do a better job in less time, and they mark-up materials (which is fair). I've been practicing for many years on many boats, as well as many engineering projects.

For others the math will be different. If you make better than $100/hour after taxes, only work on your boat if you like to. Actually, given a choice between working on the boat (most projects) and watching TV--or being on the internet--I'd work on the boat. It's a hobby, and even bottom painting is relaxing. By all means, if it's a drag (you will never see me strip the bottom, for example) let some one else do it. I don't really work on the boat to save money.

$300,000/year is a stout income. I'm not there.

 

[FourPoints]

The marina I was in the last 2 years lets you do any of your own work, but doesn't allow you to paint. They charge $35/ft for bottom painting plus a hourly prep charge for sanding, and they use cheap paint that you are lucky to get one season out of. You can supply your own paint, but they charge $150/gal surcharge. I'm there because they haul and pressure wash for $33/ft...

The next time I need paint I'm going to look at having someone short haul me...

 

[rpwillia]

Road Tolls

... New Jersey also is typical of those places where every possible human action is over-regulated, controlled and restrained by restrictive laws which is causing a 'great emigration' by the citizenry to 'other adjacent states'. Such emigration has become so widespread that NJ has imposed a draconian 'émigré tax' (on real estate, etc.) on those who leave the state. Sound familiar?

What do you mean by emirgre tax? I have noticed that at least on I-95 they charge you a toll to leave the state southbound, but no toll to enter. I guess it is sort of like Hotel California.

 

[Joe]

Question about the rules I've just read in one of the boatyards around here that will block sailboats..

"Owners requesting permission to work on their own boat agree to follow all yard rules and to buy all materials from [the Marina]."

"Due to EPA, pollution, and insurance concerns, [the Marina] must insist on performing all bottom painting - owners will no longer be allowed to paint their boat bottoms"

incidentally, the yard charges $95 an hour for their labor.

is it just me or do these two rules seem unjust?

Absolutely not. They are a commercial business....they are regulated by EPA, workman's comp, OSHA, etc.

Yes, it seems unfair, because it is change.... and we all dislike change.

Auto repair is not a good analogy. Have you paid attention to shop rates at your local dealer? Do you know of any commercial auto repair facility that will allow DIY? .......... In most boatyards with DIY regs you can still go in and work on your boat while the yard workers are doing their work.

I used to shy away from yards that imposed these rules, then it occured to me, after talking to a number of fellow boaters, that you can DIY on weekends, or after hours, when they are not officially open for business. Or even while they are doing the contract work during business hours. Purchasing the paint and supplies from the yard's chandlery is not as unfair as you may think. For one... you save a trip to the store, also, you only pay for what you use.. and they are normally pretty lenient when estimating partial amounts.

If you understand their rules you can pretty much do the same thing as before... but if the yard has been cited already, or wants to avoid citations for EPA violations committed by the DIY people..... they are going to place conditions where they must.

 

[Hermit Scott]

Absolutely not. They are a commercial business....they are regulated by EPA, workman's comp, OSHA, etc.

Yes, it seems unfair, because it is change.... and we all dislike change.

Auto repair is not a good analogy. Have you paid attention to shop rates at your local dealer? Do you know of any commercial auto repair facility that will allow DIY? .......... In most boatyards with DIY regs you can still go in and work on your boat while the yard workers are doing their work.

I used to shy away from yards that imposed these rules, then it occured to me, after talking to a number of fellow boaters, that you can DIY on weekends, or after hours, when they are not officially open for business. Or even while they are doing the contract work during business hours. Purchasing the paint and supplies from the yard's chandlery is not as unfair as you may think. For one... you save a trip to the store, also, you only pay for what you use.. and they are normally pretty lenient when estimating partial amounts.

If you understand their rules you can pretty much do the same thing as before... but if the yard has been cited already, or wants to avoid citations for EPA violations committed by the DIY people..... they are going to place conditions where they must.

Auto shops are a perfect analogy. I painted the bottom of my boat at a boat yard that allowed DIY. There was a boat yard right next door that was only for their personnel to work on boats. They are well with in their rights to only allow boats that they are going to work on.
There are auto shops in this town, San Antonio, that allow you to bring your own parts. Of course the labor rate is much higher. Fixing boats/ fixing cars what's the difference? I will say that hauling a sailboat requires special equipment/ knowledge. But so do many things on a car.
The idea that people are somehow going to take things from the business owners or force them to do something reeks of socialism. It's a free market. Go somewhere else if you don't like how the business is ran. OR better yet open your own boat yard. But in the name of Chavez don't sit around whining about how they have and you have not. They can't make you do anything. Spend your money somewhere else.

 

[thinwater]

The marina I was in the last 2 years lets you do any of your own work, but doesn't allow you to paint. They charge $35/ft for bottom painting plus a hourly prep charge for sanding, and they use cheap paint that you are lucky to get one season out of. You can supply your own paint, but they charge $150/gal surcharge. I'm there because they haul and pressure wash for $33/ft...

The next time I need paint I'm going to look at having someone short haul me...

That reads like a typo. Haul/block/wash/relaunch is ~ 11-12/ft in the Chesapeake, at upscale places. Ouch.

http://herringtonharbour.com/documents/WinterWkOrder2011.pdf

 

[Captnkev25]

I stay in a town marina with no amenities other than a guard while in the water. I winter in a marina that caters to power boats because it is the cheapest alternative in my area. To haul, wash and block for the winter it costs $624 with tax for my C25. They have an a la carte menu for winterizing plumbing, the outboard, batteries etc. I do all of that stuff myself so I save on that end. The marina owner and I have become friendly as I think I'm somewhat of a novelty to them being the only sailboat there . They allow me to do all my own work there with the exception of painting because of the pesticide licensing. They charged me $13 a foot to prep and paint which I thought was reasonable. I could buy my own paint or use theirs and the price was the same so I guess that's how they circumvent a written surcharge. My brother owns a landscaping company and has all the NYS required pesticide licenses and endorsements so I'd be curious to see if they would let him paint it. That would be as cheap as a case of beer and paint lol.

 

[Kings Gambit]

.
I'd have saved $15 by doing it myself. The yard has to deal with a hell of a lot of stuff for the little money they made off of me.
Doh!

I have to agree with merlinuxo and Old Skool Neil. Here in southern CA, the boat yards have been offering very good package deal prices. In Long Beach, one boat yard offers free haul out and pressure wash if applying two coats of bottom paint, and a 20% discount on materials (i.e., the paint--Petite Trinidad Black). If you take the boat in on a Friday they will haul it and wash it, and start painting on Monday. Meanwhile, you have access to the boat over the weekend at no charge, as well as for the following 3 days (Mon-Wed) it takes to paint the bottom with two coats and dry. You can do a lot of your own work on the boat in that amount of time. I've used that place a couple of times.

This year, I hauled the boat at a different boat yard to do it myself. So, I had to pay for the lift, pressure wash, blocking, paint and supplies, lay days, plus do the damn work myself with a friend. Lucky for me, I have a Port Supply account so I can get the paint and materials discounted b/c the yard did not require that I buy stuff from them, or it WOULD HAVE COST ME MORE than the yard special mentioned above. In the end, I maybe saved $30 or so on the cost of the job by painting the bottom myself, but I probably spent that much dicking around buying lunch and coffee for 3 days.

 

[FourPoints]

That reads like a typo. Haul/block/wash/relaunch is ~ 11-12/ft in the Chesapeake, at upscale places. Ouch.

http://herringtonharbour.com/documents/WinterWkOrder2011.pdf

No, not a typo... The wanted more to put a coat of paint on than the price of the haul wash and block for the winter...

 

[Fly_H23]

I just didn't realize how good I've got it here so far inland. We sail an 8000 acre lake in Kentucky with one marina and one adjacent storage yard. Slips are cheap at about $100/ month but the waiting list is several years. The storage yard is only $25 a month to park a trailerable boat and you can do any damn work you please but can't sleep there.

I've thought of relocating to coastal NC and upsizing to a 30-34'. Right now owning a trailerable H23 seems like the right choice.

 

[Joe]

Auto shops are a perfect analogy. I painted the bottom of my boat at a boat yard that allowed DIY. There was a boat yard right next door that was only for their personnel to work on boats. They are well with in their rights to only allow boats that they are going to work on.
There are auto shops in this town, San Antonio, that allow you to bring your own parts. Of course the labor rate is much higher. Fixing boats/ fixing cars what's the difference? I will say that hauling a sailboat requires special equipment/ knowledge. But so do many things on a car.
The idea that people are somehow going to take things from the business owners or force them to do something reeks of socialism. It's a free market. Go somewhere else if you don't like how the business is ran. OR better yet open your own boat yard. But in the name of Chavez don't sit around whining about how they have and you have not. They can't make you do anything. Spend your money somewhere else.

Auto shops, wood shops, hobby shops.... places where you rent a space to work on your vehicle.. is one thing. I was speaking of commercial auto repair places..

Yes, you are right... it is a free market... A boatyard can choose any type of business format they want....

T

 

[BillyK]

And just to add... this neighbor yard that i just signed an agreement to haul for the winter has a labor rate of $65/hour instead of the $95/hour at the other yard.. again, just 50 feet away and you pay $30 less an hour.. the haul and blocking is $350 less there too for me.. the yard has experienced people at it too, its not just a fly by night operation.

I'll be asking them to replace my cutlass bearing over the winter... otherwise if i had to pay $95/hr i would have done it..

 

[jimmcgee]

Here are a couple of thoughts from a lifetime resident of the People's Republic of New Jersey.

The marinas are getting squeezed by the state DEP "Clean Marina" effort. It's a good program but from what I've heard enforcement can be draconian and some marinas have been burned so are more likely to ban DIY bottom painting.

The way I understand it no sanding without dust collection, a 10mil tarp under the boat while painting and scraping to collect ALL paint chips & drips. Bundle up and dispose of the tarp in a dumpster when done.

Banning all DIY work and/or requiring me to buy all my parts from the marina would have me looking for another marina. A 25% surcharge on outside professionals is equally egregious.

Marinas make money from multiple sources. Ours makes money from slip fees, winter storage, work done by the shop and from their on-site restaurant. If I feel like I’m being screwed I’m going elsewhere.

 

[John T1594]

Green Marina

I winter my boat at a marina in NJ that allows the owner to do all of the bottom work on the boat, using your own paint and supplies - as long as you use reasonable means to keep paint and scrappings off the ground. They just announced that they will let you use their dust collecting sanders for free.

 

[fstbttms]

The marinas are getting squeezed by the state DEP "Clean Marina" effort. It's a good program but from what I've heard enforcement

The Clean Marina program (a nationwide program, BTW) is strictly voluntary. No marina that chooses to participate is being "squeezed". And (if New Jersey's version of the program is anything like California's) there is little or no enforcement of any of the program's Best Management Practices. For instance, I service maybe a dozen marinas that have been certified by the Clean Marina program. The program includes BMPs for in-water hull cleaning. Not only have I never been asked to follow these BMPs in any Clean Marina, I have never even been shown them unless I asked to see them.

Again, the program is voluntary and enforcement is essentially non-existent. It's really more of a PR gimmick than anything else.

 

[jimmcgee]

The Clean Marina program (a nationwide program, BTW) is strictly voluntary. No marina that chooses to participate is being "squeezed". And (if New Jersey's version of the program is anything like California's) there is little or no enforcement of any of the program's Best Management Practices.

I've had owners of two marinas in NJ talk about enforcement run-ins and about enforcement being uneven. One mentioned the DEP so I thought it was their program.

 

[jimmcgee]

I would disagree that working on your boat is analogous to working on a car that’s already on the rack at a Midas. Once your boat is hauled out it becomes VERY expensive to go elsewhere. And let’s face it; the quality of work at some yards leaves something to be desired.

A better analogy would be a condo. Work on the roof and siding affects my neighbors. But if I want to install new carpet or buy a new TV I don’t have to buy it from the condo association and have one of their contractors do the installation.

I can understand a yard mechanic wanting to use his own source for parts he’s installing. After all he’s responsible for the labor if there’s a problem. But the yard shouldn’t be able to dictate what parts are used for work that I do myself.

I’m really sensitive to this issue as I’ve had some bad experiences with both contractors and marine mechanics over the years. I do pretty much all my own work as long as I have the time.

 

[wetass]

The Clean Marina program (a nationwide program, BTW) is strictly voluntary. No marina that chooses to participate is being "squeezed". And (if New Jersey's version of the program is anything like California's) there is little or no enforcement of any of the program's Best Management Practices. For instance, I service maybe a dozen marinas that have been certified by the Clean Marina program. The program includes BMPs for in-water hull cleaning. Not only have I never been asked to follow these BMPs in any Clean Marina, I have never even been shown them unless I asked to see them.

Again, the program is voluntary and enforcement is essentially non-existent. It's really more of a PR gimmick than anything else.

Not in Washington State - BMPs are enforced strictly by the marinas and yards and I have seen the yards fine patrons many times for not following them.

 

[fstbttms]

I've had owners of two marinas in NJ talk about enforcement run-ins and about enforcement being uneven. One mentioned the DEP so I thought it was their program.

The NJDEP runs the New Jersey version of the Clean Marina program, but unless they are using the same name as the national program, they did not develop it. Each state has it's own version of the Clean Marina program, there is no centrally located management of the individual programs.