Boat rescue off Block Island

Status
Not open for further replies.

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,708
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Ross, I'm going to disagree with you here. I think roller furlers have proven themselves in all types of conditions for many years. I would bet most offshore cruisers use them. Yes, they, like every other part of a boat, can and do fail, but when a shorthanded crew has to send someone forward to douse/change a jib on a heaving deck one has to weigh the choices. I would rather have the furler.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Ross, I'm going to disagree with you here. I think roller furlers have proven themselves in all types of conditions for many years. I would bet most offshore cruisers use them. Yes, they, like every other part of a boat, can and do fail, but when a shorthanded crew has to send someone forward to douse/change a jib on a heaving deck one has to weigh the choices. I would rather have the furler.
Yup Phyllis Nickles & John Harries of Morgans Cloud (LINK) have over 100k high latitude nautical miles on a Harken furler. John was bestowing it's robust nature and flawless performance to me on the dock this past September as they prepared for another off shore jaunt.

The safety aspect of not having to leave the cockpit in a sever weather can not be over looked. Blown out sails will shred in nasties no matter if they are hanked on or attached via luff tape..

As for Franklin's comment on 8-12 being nothing I would say it all depends on the wave period. Heck I've sailed in 18-20 foot seas that were not even worthy of a life jacket and 8-12 footers that were breaking in the cockpit and tearing dodgers off the deck..

The video below is 8-14 foot seas (where the boats are was about 6 foot max but in the background 8-14)... New England Nor' Easters get NASTY and 8-12 can feel like 18-20+ depending upon the wave period.....

Nor' Easter Video (LINK)
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I wonder if they had storm sails on board. The motion of the boat is soooo much better with some sail up than motoring under bare poles.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Re. 8 to 12

Have to agree with Maine Sail. Anyone that thinks 8 to 12 is "nothing" has never sailed on the Great Lakes.

Oh, and the forecast:
...GALE WARNING IN EFFECT THROUGH MONDAY MORNING...
...HEAVY FREEZING SPRAY WARNING IN EFFECT THROUGH MONDAY
MORNING...
...LOW WATER ADVISORY IN EFFECT UNTIL NOON EST MONDAY...

.THIS AFTERNOON...WEST WINDS TO 30 KNOTS INCREASING TO GALES TO
45 KNOTS THIS AFTERNOON. WIDESPREAD HEAVY FREEZING SPRAY. A
CHANCE OF SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES 3 TO 5 FEET BUILDING TO 9 TO 12
FEET.
.TONIGHT...WEST GALES TO 45 KNOTS DIMINISHING TO 35 KNOTS.
WIDESPREAD HEAVY FREEZING SPRAY. A CHANCE OF SNOW SHOWERS. WAVES 9 TO 12 FEET.
 

Attachments

Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
I've been in 14' waves with steep chop (that's all we have here off Texas coast) and I have to tell you that in now way, shape or form would I consider calling CG.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
I stayed up all night last night reading this guys blog/website. www.openbluehorizon.com
I found it interesting becasue this guy(Ronnie, 23 years old) and I have alot in common. We lived a few miles apart went to the same college, he worked at a motorcycle store that I frequented, both went to the desert. I never met him though.
Any way this guy bought a 41' boat and with in a month of sailing for the first time heads out across the Pacific to Hawaii. Needless to say a typhoon sends him 20' to 30' seas with a nice breeze of 30 or 40 knots. He abandons his boat after hitting the EPIRB, and a merchant vessel saves him.
The reason why he had to punch out was because his wind vane broke, and his rudder post sheared so he couldn't heave to and was getting knocked down. I'm sure he was fatigued and beat half to death also.
How do you know if your rudder post is still strong enough? Not having wheel steering is one thing. With a bunch of cables and pullies in there I would not be suprised if my wheel steering failed, so I have an e-tiller no big deal. But if the rudder post breaks...
I want to be ready for everything I can plan for in advance. How do you check out your rudder/rudder post?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I stayed up all night last night reading this guys blog/website. www.clearbluehorizon.com
I found it interesting becasue this guy(Ronnie, 23 years old) and I have alot in common. We lived a few miles apart went to the same college, he worked at a motorcycle store that I frequented, both went to the desert. I never met him though.
Any way this guy bought a 41' boat and with in a month of sailing for the first time heads out across the Pacific to Hawaii. Needless to say a typhoon sends him 20' to 30' seas with a nice breeze of 30 or 40 knots. He abandons his boat after hitting the EPIRB, and a merchant vessel saves him.
The reason why he had to punch out was because his wind vane broke, and his rudder post sheared so he couldn't heave to and was getting knocked down. I'm sure he was fatigued and beat half to death also.
How do you know if your rudder post is still strong enough? Not having wheel steering is one thing. With a bunch of cables and pullies in there I would not be suprised if my wheel steering failed, so I have an e-tiller no big deal. But if the rudder post breaks...
I want to be ready for everything I can plan for in advance. How do you check out your rudder/rudder post?
The rudder post on your C-30 is hollow stainless pipe. Most boats built for off shore work have solid rudder posts...

This stock is for a Pearson 30 but very similar to a C-30. Note how it's hollow..


This is the guts of the rudder on a friends Mariner 38 it was solid stainless steel, not hollow, but badly corroded from stray current. They had a new shaft machined from solid Aquamet 22 stock seeing as they were headed off shore..
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
What is the structure of a rudder(or the structure of my C30 rudder) and how is the pipe fixed into the rudder? Is it an integral part of the rudder or can it be replaced?
How did they know the rudder post was that rusted inside?
That rudder is not a spade rudder. Is it open to water intrusion from the bottom?
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
What is the structure of a rudder(or the structure of my C30 rudder) and how is the pipe fixed into the rudder? Is it an integral part of the rudder or can it be replaced?
It is probably welded to the a steel web, much like the one shown in Maine Sail's second photo, and it is an integral part of the rudder. To replace it would require ripping the rudder blade apart and removing the tube, and replacing the tube... basically—rebuilding the rudder.
How did they know the rudder post was that rusted inside?
It was probably weeping rust.
That rudder is not a spade rudder. Is it open to water intrusion from the bottom?
Once the steel starts to rust, it expands about 10% causing the fiberglass and foam around it to break apart in small cracks from the pressure of the steel-to-rust expansion. More water gets in through the cracks and damaged laminate, causing more crevice corrosion, leading to more expansion...and so on.

BTW, Ronnie decided to go off on his new-to-him boat without ever having the boat inspected or surveyed—which was less than wise. He also timed his departure, not to have the best weather window heading off into the Pacific, but to make the local evening newscast—which was also less than wise IMHO. He could afford to purchase HD Camcorders to document his voyage, but not afford to inspect, survey or properly prepare his boat.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
So if you loose a rudder, it's best to just build another. Is this why a 'true blue water boat' does not have a spade rudder, because they snap off easier?
Saildog, what is a bridge deck used for and exactly what is it by definition? I know you built one into your Telstar, what other reason than decreasing the volume of the cockpit?
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
So if you loose a rudder, it's best to just build another. Is this why a 'true blue water boat' does not have a spade rudder, because they snap off easier?
Yes, that's why traditional blue water boats have either a keel hung or skeg hung rudder. They're much less likely to be damaged in an impact since they are supported both top and bottom or in the case of a partial skeg, halfway or two-thirds of the way down, versus only at the top.
Saildog, what is a bridge deck used for and exactly what is it by definition? I know you built one into your Telstar, what other reason than decreasing the volume of the cockpit?
A bridgedeck is a raised section at the front of the cockpit that reduces the risk of downflooding from the cockpit into the cabin should the boat get pooped. It is usually equal or slightly higher than the cockpit seats and transom coaming of the cockpit. If the cockpit fills with water, as would happen when the boat is pooped by a following sea, the bridgedeck would prevent most of this water from draining into the cabin—giving the cockpit drains a chance to direct the water overboard.

The bridgedeck on my boat also serves several other purposes.

First, as you noted above, it does help reduce the cockpit volume, which also increases seaworthiness, by reducing the weight of the water that can fill the cockpit in the event the boat is pooped. :)

Second, it provides some additional stowage, which is in very short supply on a trimaran.

Third, it stiffens up the boat considerably, by reducing the size of the companionway—which is now two-thirds its original size, and creating a large transverse box-beam that helps transfer the loads from one ama across the main hull to the other ama.

Finally, it provides some additional seating at the forward end of the cockpit.

Adding a bridgedeck to a boat is often a common modification if the boat is going to be used in open water and heavy seas. Many of the boats in John Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere or on James Baldwin's Boat List, would require this modification before really being considered suitable for bluewater usage.

To give you an idea of the difference it makes in the cockpit, here are two photos, one before, and one after.

Before:


After:
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Yes, that's why traditional blue water boats have either a keel hung or skeg hung rudder. They're much less likely to be damaged in an impact since they are supported both top and bottom or in the case of a partial skeg, halfway or two-thirds of the way down, versus only at the top.
I'm not a fan of spade rudders on sailboats for other reasons but I like them structurally and use them almost exclusively on my power boat designs. It takes only a small increase in diameter to make them as strong as most skeg hung rudders. What I like is that they can hit something, bend the stock, and still have a good chance of being functional. Often, a skeg will flex enough that the stock can bend and the rudder will then be bound up. If you damage the rudder in some far away place, you can also remove and repair or replace a spade rudder much more easily than a skeg hung one. You may even be able to do it in the water.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Roger-

True, an undersized skeg is probably a worse choice than an oversized stock on a spade rudder. :)
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,703
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
How did they know the rudder post was that rusted inside?
That rudder is not a spade rudder. Is it open to water intrusion from the bottom?
They didn't! They noticed some pretty drastic galvanic corrosion on the un-rusted part of the shaft, you can actually see it in the photos, and decided to rebuild the rudder based on what they could see not what they couldn't. It is interesting that this rudder seemed to show dry on the survey. It will be fairly tough to find any rudder that has a stainless or aluminum stock that does not leak at some point as the expansion and contraction and loading of the rudder can do numbers on the seal between the glass and the stock. There have been very few failures of C-30 rudders, that I have heard of, but most are not sailing them off shore in 35+ knots, in December.....
 

higgs

.
Aug 24, 2005
3,708
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Have to agree with Maine Sail. Anyone that thinks 8 to 12 is "nothing" has never sailed on the Great Lakes.

While the Great Lakes can indeed be quite rough, the photo of the lake freighter in Ed's post is actually not from the Great Lakes. The photo circulated around the web as such. The boat is the Spruce Glen, which normally sails the lakes, but in this case it was on a trip from Florida to Belgium.

http://www.boatnerd.com/
 

rfrye1

.
Jun 15, 2004
589
Hunter H376 San Diego
39F degrees and snowing? What kind of window is that? Sounds like the skipper was drinking to much eggnog & listening to J. Buffet and decided to head south......
I hope the USCG sends him a bill.
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,944
Oday Day Sailer Wareham, MA
Actually, these "sailors" on the boat rescued off Block Island are VERY lucky, very naive, but VERY lucky! In the old days, the US Coast Guard had a saying, "You have to go out, you don't have to come back". I interpret that to pretty much mean that they felt that if someone was in distress, they had to go to the rescue, even if there was a very real chance that the Coasties would be lost in the process. However, in recent years they have re-thought their policies, and accepted the reality that it is important to save those in distress, but it is of no value to those in distress if the boat/aircraft crew is lost in the process. They now are required to do a risk assesment for all missions, "Risk Management" is the new policy, and Team Coordination Training is required of all crews (even the USCGAUX).
Under this new policy I suspect that a Station Commanding Officer could determine that it was too risky to send out a boat or aircraft given current weather conditions. They would monitor the situation and if conditions improve or the situation gets desparate.....would then send assistance if needed. Now, I would hope and assume that conditions would need to be pretty bad for the USCG to not respond immediately....however, they can determine a mission to be too risky to undertake.
Imagine the public outcry against these sailors if even one Coastie had died trying to rescue them from their "stupid stunt", equally, imagine the outcry if the USCG had not rescued them! What a "catch-22"!
If I was the C.O. of the CG Station where they were brought, I would have had some choice words for them......
Responsible Skippers should also consider risk management when planning a departure for an offshore (or even inshore at some times!) passage. First and formost should be the WEATHER! We have become a society that far to often bases decisions only on when we need to be somewhere and neglect to fully consider the risks of making that schedule. Maybe a 100 years ago I could see not knowing that a storm was brewing, but with today's long-range forecasts......unacceptable! They are lucky that they survived!
 

Bob V

.
Mar 13, 2008
235
Catalina 42mkII Lagoon Point
A little incentive

would be provided if the Coast Guard policy was to save the crew and scuttle the boat. Since the coasties are also part of our home land security, it could be considered training to test their deck guns on a free target.

The skipper might be a little bit more hesitant to hit the "easy button" if he knew it was going to cost him his boat. It might even be enough incentive to stay at the dock in those conditions if he knew the (monetary) risk.

I am amazed that the coasties agreed to such a long tow in dangerous conditions just to save someone's personal property.
 

Scott2

.
Sep 26, 2008
58
Hunter 240 Hayward, WI
Due Recognition

With little personal recognition, the men and women of the Coast Guard stand by 24/7 and frequently put themselves into harms way to ensure our safety. These brave individuals make up the most under appreciated and under recognized organization in the US government. I had the amazing experience to witness a fellow crew member air lifted off a 40' Jeaneau Sun Oddesy during a delivery from St. Thomas, USVI to state side. About 150 miles east of Turks and Caicos he suddenly developed a health issue that could have led to death within 12 hours if complications arose. The expeditious coordination and rescue was simply amazing.

Bravo to the men and women who help us to a safe harbor when in need!
 

Attachments

Status
Not open for further replies.