Boat registration advice

[frankiedogs]

Need some advice from the masses. Lord help me now.

We bought our boat from owner b. Consider us owners c. Owner b bought the boat from owner a but never registered it before he sold it to us. Owner a documented the boat but for obvious reasons let it lapse. We tried to register the boat in FL and they said that we can't register the boat because we can't show that owner b was a legal owner in the states eyes. We have the Missouri title in hand for the boat but owner a signed the back of the title over to owner b who in turn signed it over to us.

So my question to the masses is: how do I get around the bureaucratic snafu to get this boat registered?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Re: Registration advice

Did you ask the Fl registration office (when they told you that) what you should do?

It sounds like owner b didn't properly obtain a title in his name which should have been a stipulation in your sales contract.

 

[frankiedogs]

I asked and she kinda hinted without saying that we should document though the coast guard and then register it.

I never thought that this would have been an issue but this is far more common that I would have ever believed. I am hoping someone else that has been through this would chime in.

 

[DHaranSailor]

Re: Registration advice

Going through the same thing right now sadly.

 

[McIntoshUSA]

Re: Registration advice

We live in Florida and had a similar problem when registering a used dinghy we bought. It had not been previously registered. All we had was a bill of sale. The DMV had us go back to the previous owner and get him to write on the bill of sale that he signed that it had never been titled before. Don't know if this would help you or not. Also I learned that if you go back to the DMV or a different DMV office in the same county then sometimes you get an employee who is more understanding of the problem and helps you out. I had a friend with the same problem we had with a dinghy and the DMV rep did not make him go back to the seller. Good luck. Another option is to complete a form that request the DMV to contact the previous owner on your behalf but I would recommend trying the above suggestions first. http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html#7 form HSMV 85054 See the last 2 comments on this page.

 

[capta]

I asked and she kinda hinted without saying that we should document though the coast guard and then register it.

I never thought that this would have been an issue but this is far more common that I would have ever believed. I am hoping someone else that has been through this would chime in.

Documenting a vessel that has had it's document lapse through several owners is difficult. You must prove to the CG that there are no liens against the vessel over her whole lifetime. Part of this entails contact each and every former owner of the vessel, having them certify to this, and notarize it.
I believe whatever the state will require is going to be easier. Good luck.

 

[Skipper]

A broker will have the knowledge, connections and tools for this task. But you'll have to pay him.

 

[JohnVTX]

Re: Registration advice

You must have owner B get the missing title in his name and then sign over to you. I just went through this. Need bill of sale that seperates boat from outboard as well..

 

[agprice22]

If owner B never titled the boat, he never owned it legally. Unfortunately, you cannot own it either. This is what the DMV told me when I was in this position. Owner B must get this boat titled in order to sign it to you. Your broker should arrange for this. All paper work should have been in order before delivery, but I bet that rarely happens. Alternately, since owner B never legally owned the boat, you could have owner A apply for a replacement title and sign it directly to you, eliminating owner B altogether. Unfortunately, you have nothing to compel him to do this.

Owner B broke the law by not paying his taxes on the boat. He is now preventing you from owning the boat. This is actionable in civil court. You could sue him to compel him to either return your money or pay his taxes and title the boat. (Sounds like a PITA). According to my DMV, states don't arrange for legal transfer with no title because it would allow people to re-title stolen vehicles. Check your contract with your broker. It is likely that you are also protected by your contract. My broker did not release funds to the seller until I acknowledged receipt of all proper documents. And that took a while for the title to arrive in one case. The broker should not have brokered a boat you could not own, and if he is certified, he knows what is needed.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: Registration advice

As a dealer I learned how to over come this situation. I would first notify owner by certified letter that you cannot register the boat because it is still in the name of owner A as he failed to properly title the boat in his or owner b name. Put the monkey back on his shoulders. Simply this, either produce that new title or you want your money back and do not wait. In addition, any liability will rest with both owner a and b should any lawsuits occur. That may make them mad but boy does it sure work in most cases.

If you are able to contact owner a directly yourself at the same time, be nice and explain what happened but at the same time he is still held responsible for liability should there be any legal action against that boat primarily or owner a. Tell him you are trying to resolve that quickly and ask him to obtain another title. If he is willing to do this, see if he will fill out the title to you direct with a new bill of sale bypassing owner b who was the idiot to begin with. When you advise that owner a is still legally responsible, it sure does get him off his duff. If there are any expenses advise owner b he will be held responsible for them.

 

[frankiedogs]

Awesome advice everyone. I sent the broker an email yesterday explaining everything and am waiting with baited breath for his response.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Re: Registration advice

Hope you get a response from the broker. Please let us know.

Unfortunately, despite good intentions, the advice you have received regarding liability is wrong. You can't claim ownership and concurrently deny responsibility.

The original owner fulfilled his responsibility by signing over the title. Depending on the state in which the original title was issued, the second owner's signature on it may constitute legal transfer albeit not in Florida.

Good luck.

 

[BigEasy]

Re: Registration advice

I fail to see how owner "A" enters into this picture. He paid taxes on the boat and had clear title that he signed over to owner "B" at time of sale. His legal obligations were complete at time of sale. Owner "B" failed to register the boat in his name & likely failed to pay taxes when he purchased the boat. Seems to me that owner "B" is the individual at fault here. Furthermore, if there was a licensed broker who coordinated the sale, he would also be negligent for not ensuring a clear title on the boat. Hate to say it; however, you need to inform owner "B" and the broker that you will pursue legal action if a clear title is not provided within 30 days. I don't think you are going to be able to get around this by trying to document thru the USCG, because they are going to have to establish a clear title trail before they will document. When I purchased my last boat, I didn't use a broker; however, I verified thru the owner's lender that taxes were paid and that the lender had a valid title. I also verified that the owner had a current/valid state registration before I paid the sale price to the lender ( the boat was not USCG documented). If there was a broker involved, the broker is responsible for ensuring a clear title, especially since he is paid for these services--you cant legally sell something that doesn't have a clear title. Hopefully your threat of legal action will prompt owner "B" and the broker to take care of business. IF owner "B" doesn't clear up this problem he will responsible not only for back taxes not paid, but also penalties/interest and possible criminal charges for tax evasion. The broker could possibly be sued for "malpractice". I am not an attorney; however, the liabilities seem fairly clear to me. Good luck I hope it all works out for you without having to pursue legal avenues. If owner "B" has any sense, he will take care of this promptly, because he is going to be in big trouble legally & financially if he doesn't make good on the title.

 

[capta]

Are you saying you used a broker in this deal and he allowed transfer of title without checking if it was clear? I believe that would make HIM the responsible party in all this. That is part of why one uses a broker in a deal such as this. If he is licensed then he knows the applicable laws and is responsible for supplying a clear and valid title to you, the purchaser.
There may indeed be taxes due on this vessel, which with penalties could be a substantial amount, which YOU may become liable for.
I would suggest you get out of this mess by demanding your money back and giving the boat back, until the broker can supply you with clear title.
Again good luck, and let's hope that this thread saves others from making the same mistake.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: Registration advice

To all;

I have been involved with those who entered into legal matters over this as an advisor and yes the original owner can be sued if there is any legal liability claims or litigation until he can prove the boat was sold to owner b. However, laws vary from state to state and jurisdiction of course will determine. I also use to be an insurance investigator handling litigation directing attorneys.

 

[BigEasy]

Re: Registration advice

All the original owner (owner "A") needs is a copy of the bill of sale, signed by himself and the purchaser + witnesses (preferably notarized) and the original owner is legally in the clear. Any notary will give signed & notarized originals to the purchaser and copies to the seller. Wouldn't hurt to also keep a copy of the signed title or state registration that was signed over to the purchaser. In many instances, a state's boat registration agency will require notarized paper work as will the taxing authorities. In any case, for $30 it is cheap insurance for both seller & purchaser. You really need to CYA on both ends of these transactions.
Also, everyone can clearly see that in these transactions, regardless if a broker is involved, if an owner doesn't present the title at the act of sale; then a prudent purchaser should walk away until such title is presented. After the seller has your money, you don't have much leverage in getting the title unless you threaten or proceed with a lawsuit. IF a purchaser walks away before the sale is completed, a motivated seller will likely get a title fairly quickly.
When, I purchased my boat without a broker involved, the seller and I signed all the paper work in the presence of a notary and the appropriate copies were given to each of us. Because it was an out of state transaction and the boat had a mortage/lien, all funds were wired to the bank/lender for them to distribute the funds. At the time, we were considering using a buyers/sellers service thru Boats US to handle the paper work, check for clear title, and disburse the funds. They charged a reasonable fee; however, it would have taken much longer for the transaction to be completed. Meanwhile the boat was sitting on the hard in a boatyard after it was hauled for survey and we didn't want to incur a lot of extra cost for storage until Boats US completed the process. We allowed the lender / bank to act as the independent 3rd party in the transaction and finished up the business in 3 days. The owner was not going to allow the yard to load the boat for transport until the funds cleared! Not saying this was the best way; however, it worked well for the seller and me.

 

[frankiedogs]

Just to clarify a couple of questions that were posed, we did receive the title for the boat. It was the title from owner a. Owner a signed it over to b and then b just signed the back of it as a continuation. So we do have a title in hand but because there is an owner in the middl,e it throws a wrench in the mix. Of course the broker that we used is a certified broker and the boat was listed on yachtworld.

My wife just happened across the owner of a boat yard that did some work for us a couple of months ago and gave us a good maritime lawyers name and number if it should have to go that far.

This is the first time we have ever had this issue, because we used to live in TN and boats aren't titled there, a bill of sale will suffice.

 

[Brian S]

I have no direct advice on this.

I have experience in PA with trailers, which are registered and titled. My GP14 came on a trailer with no title, and the registration had lapsed. According to the DMV, I must take my bill of sale and any other supporting information to a judge, who will declare an involuntary transfer of title, and that I am the owner. At this point, DMV will issue a new title to me.

I haven't done this yet, because the poor boat is waiting for me to finish restoring her. And I just take off the tag from my big boat's trailer, even though I know this is illegal and could create all kinds of issues for me if I had an accident or something. Hey, when bureaucracy causes too much inconvenience for people (me) they will do what they gotta to work around it!

Dunno if any of that would apply to the OP. When they say they've got a maritime lawyer to contact, I bet he will sort them out.

 

[hawk232]

I was in the EXACT same situation with my first boat. I was told that owner b had to title the boat in their name, then transfer it to me. As a back up option, if owner a can be reached, he can apply for a lost title (since it was never legally transferred, he should be able to get one) and sign it directly over to you.

I will second the DMV personnel may vary comment and will very strongly recommend that you find someone who is willing to work with you, get their name and request them EVERY time you go there. I bought a race boat (never registered) based on instructions obtained from DMV personnel. I didn't get her name. several months later when I went to register it I couldn't get it done and had nothing to go on.

 

[Tony Volk]

Sidestep the bureaucracy

I had a similar problem. I wrote a letter to the US Coast Guard and enclosed a copy of the lapsed Certificate of Documentation. They sent me back a form with instructions for renewing the lapsed Certificate which included filling out the form and enclosing a check with a copy of my Bill of Sale. In return I received a new one year Certificate which instructions that specifically stated that I could NOT apply for state title. I then sent a copy of the CG Certification to the local Tax Collector Office in Florida with a letter that said that since I was now keeping the boat in Florida I wanted to register it in the state. They sent back a simple form that I completed and returned with a check for the fee. In return I received a Florida Vessel Registration with the date sticker. Could not have been easier. Sometimes a sidestep is the most efficient path. Good luck!!

We bought our boat from owner b. Consider us owners c. Owner b bought the boat from owner a but never registered it before he sold it to us. Owner a documented the boat but for obvious reasons let it lapse. We tried to register the boat in FL and they said that we can't register the boat because we can't show that owner b was a legal owner in the states eyes. We have the Missouri title in hand for the boat but owner a signed the back of the title over to owner b who in turn signed it over to us.

So my question to the masses is: how do I get around the bureaucratic snafu to get this boat registered?[/QUOTE]