- Status
OK, think about this
Picked up a 1999 Sail mag that had the Top 10 Picks for new boats, I looked at the ones most likely to be seen here. Now the Hunter 290 listed at 58K, so I did a quick search and found 15 stateside, they ranged in price from 49K-70K. All had the standard items and ususally a Bimini cover. one or two had a chartplotter. Hmm, now a 3 year old Hunter cost more than it did new. Ok add the dealer prep, some accesories, maybe that jacked the price up what maybe 4K, so we are looking at a new boat cost of what? 51K? Where is the depreciation? So I looked into the Cat 310,same pattern, and the Bent 361, same pattern, except I found one at 25K above new list. So I am seeing a pattern in these "Production" boats, do you see it? now you go back and look at what a Hunter cost 10 years ago, and what they are getting for them now. Sure I found one that even had chartplotter and radar, still not the highest priced. So if this is the pattern for Hunter, Cat, Bent, why are we talking about buying used, it looks to me, a inexperianced land lubber wanting to buy a boat that i should just go buy new and not have to worry about buying someone else's headache, i can get one new, with a warranty, and not have to change someone else's idea of the perfect setup. So using this info, I go to the bank and talk them into giving me a small buesness loan, cuz this here is an investment that in 3 years will make money. I dont think that they would buy that idea, but do you see my point, or better yet the question?
Picked up a 1999 Sail mag that had the Top 10 Picks for new boats, I looked at the ones most likely to be seen here. Now the Hunter 290 listed at 58K, so I did a quick search and found 15 stateside, they ranged in price from 49K-70K. All had the standard items and ususally a Bimini cover. one or two had a chartplotter. Hmm, now a 3 year old Hunter cost more than it did new. Ok add the dealer prep, some accesories, maybe that jacked the price up what maybe 4K, so we are looking at a new boat cost of what? 51K? Where is the depreciation? So I looked into the Cat 310,same pattern, and the Bent 361, same pattern, except I found one at 25K above new list. So I am seeing a pattern in these "Production" boats, do you see it? now you go back and look at what a Hunter cost 10 years ago, and what they are getting for them now. Sure I found one that even had chartplotter and radar, still not the highest priced. So if this is the pattern for Hunter, Cat, Bent, why are we talking about buying used, it looks to me, a inexperianced land lubber wanting to buy a boat that i should just go buy new and not have to worry about buying someone else's headache, i can get one new, with a warranty, and not have to change someone else's idea of the perfect setup. So using this info, I go to the bank and talk them into giving me a small buesness loan, cuz this here is an investment that in 3 years will make money. I dont think that they would buy that idea, but do you see my point, or better yet the question?
OK, think about THIS
In response to Michael: The prices you find on the net are asking prices. They represent the seller's wildest dreams. Market realities say that the boats will sell for less, if they sell at all. Last year I was looking for a specific boat and did a lot of research on it. In a 4 year period the actual sales of that boat totaled 40. Of that 40, only 3 sold for the asking price. One boat sold for 52% of the asking price. The average boat sold for 90.7% of the asking price. Sales of that model were ZERO for the 12 months immediately preceeding my research. There are 6 listings for that boat on the net today. Four of those "For Sale" boats were "For Sale" one year ago. What's my point? If you do your homework, there should be some real bargains to be had in the used boat market. Oh, in case you were wondering, Vision 32.
In response to Michael: The prices you find on the net are asking prices. They represent the seller's wildest dreams. Market realities say that the boats will sell for less, if they sell at all. Last year I was looking for a specific boat and did a lot of research on it. In a 4 year period the actual sales of that boat totaled 40. Of that 40, only 3 sold for the asking price. One boat sold for 52% of the asking price. The average boat sold for 90.7% of the asking price. Sales of that model were ZERO for the 12 months immediately preceeding my research. There are 6 listings for that boat on the net today. Four of those "For Sale" boats were "For Sale" one year ago. What's my point? If you do your homework, there should be some real bargains to be had in the used boat market. Oh, in case you were wondering, Vision 32.
Quit dishing Lawyers
With all due respect, i think your charachterization of lawyes, gernerally speaking, is misguided. I wonder if you even know any. I am a lawyer, and quite frankly, have a better understanding of the concepts of disclosure, misrepresentation and fraud that attribute to this profession. Because of my understanding of these terms, and the legal implications therefrom, I am convinced that lawyers, as a general rule, are more forthcoming than most. If you have concerns about a lawyer selling a boat, simple go to another lawyer to draft the bill of sale, then every "trick in the book" will be at your disposal, not the seller's.
With all due respect, i think your charachterization of lawyes, gernerally speaking, is misguided. I wonder if you even know any. I am a lawyer, and quite frankly, have a better understanding of the concepts of disclosure, misrepresentation and fraud that attribute to this profession. Because of my understanding of these terms, and the legal implications therefrom, I am convinced that lawyers, as a general rule, are more forthcoming than most. If you have concerns about a lawyer selling a boat, simple go to another lawyer to draft the bill of sale, then every "trick in the book" will be at your disposal, not the seller's.
*o (sheesh what happened to sense of humor)
we all need to lighten up and go sailing. *x oops can't today - it was snowing !
we all need to lighten up and go sailing. *x oops can't today - it was snowing !
Larry, good Point
That is something i did not look into, and i would like to know how you looked up the info, i am intrested in a model that seems at little high to me. I am not sure how to research for that info, could you give me some guidance?(there really should be a spellcheck on here) I was only doing a quick look through yachtcouncil ads and looking at asking prices. please share with me
That is something i did not look into, and i would like to know how you looked up the info, i am intrested in a model that seems at little high to me. I am not sure how to research for that info, could you give me some guidance?(there really should be a spellcheck on here) I was only doing a quick look through yachtcouncil ads and looking at asking prices. please share with me
Michael
You will need to be very good friends with a boat broker. They have resources you can use.
You will need to be very good friends with a boat broker. They have resources you can use.
Gary, this is about boats
I asked some real good questions about BOATS in my posts, remember BOATS, the reason we all come to this sight? Fight your battles elseware please, because I want to learn about BOATS. Thank you.
I asked some real good questions about BOATS in my posts, remember BOATS, the reason we all come to this sight? Fight your battles elseware please, because I want to learn about BOATS. Thank you.
Michaels question
I think there is a little more to this question than can be answered by looking at an older Vision. The 290's you mentioned are relatively young boats. Ours is three years old and is one of those that is for sale. A new 306 (same hull) similarly equipped to ours would run something over 100K. The difference between that and our asking price represents a significant amount of depreciation for a boat that is still within its hull warrantee. The asking prices we see out there are frankly pretty realistic for this model and I suspect that sales are slow because many people feel the discretionary money has somewhat evaporated over the last three or so years. At our dealer, sales are significantly down for new boats too. We have owned two new boats. We bought new boats for tax reasons. We would certainly buy a well equipped and maintained used boat, and we would pay top market dollar to get it if it compared favorably to other alternatives. We have a lot of experience with the money spent beyond the base price of a boat to make it well equipped and maintained. Compare the used 290's fairly (accounting for all the options present) to a new 306 and it might amaze you. In our opinion and again with the experience of two new Hunters, the one year dealer warrantee is nice but not a deal killer. After all this is new gear, and the warrantee issues have been mostly about minor things. The few things that were bigger issues (frankly on our 356) are all now taken care of and would make a slightly used model that much more attractive. The five year hull warrantee is comforting. But, based on a recent haul out and bottom job, that hull is going the five years easy. It was perfect. Also, most of those owners are not going to sell for much less. There is a difference in buying a boat that is a few years old and one that is twenty or more. We may not sell our 290 at the price we are asking (our wildest dreams apparently), but if we do sell it for much less, it will be an even older boat by then. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
I think there is a little more to this question than can be answered by looking at an older Vision. The 290's you mentioned are relatively young boats. Ours is three years old and is one of those that is for sale. A new 306 (same hull) similarly equipped to ours would run something over 100K. The difference between that and our asking price represents a significant amount of depreciation for a boat that is still within its hull warrantee. The asking prices we see out there are frankly pretty realistic for this model and I suspect that sales are slow because many people feel the discretionary money has somewhat evaporated over the last three or so years. At our dealer, sales are significantly down for new boats too. We have owned two new boats. We bought new boats for tax reasons. We would certainly buy a well equipped and maintained used boat, and we would pay top market dollar to get it if it compared favorably to other alternatives. We have a lot of experience with the money spent beyond the base price of a boat to make it well equipped and maintained. Compare the used 290's fairly (accounting for all the options present) to a new 306 and it might amaze you. In our opinion and again with the experience of two new Hunters, the one year dealer warrantee is nice but not a deal killer. After all this is new gear, and the warrantee issues have been mostly about minor things. The few things that were bigger issues (frankly on our 356) are all now taken care of and would make a slightly used model that much more attractive. The five year hull warrantee is comforting. But, based on a recent haul out and bottom job, that hull is going the five years easy. It was perfect. Also, most of those owners are not going to sell for much less. There is a difference in buying a boat that is a few years old and one that is twenty or more. We may not sell our 290 at the price we are asking (our wildest dreams apparently), but if we do sell it for much less, it will be an even older boat by then. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije II)
Bought a charter boat
After much research and many sleepless nights on the subject, we decided on purchasing a charter boat. It was very difficult to find a boat that suited our needs and for the price available that could beat the charter boat. Aside from some cosmetic issues, which were addressed with some "elbow grease" during a couple sunny weekends, the major elements of the boat (electrical, hull, plumbing, etc.) were tiptop and also had some solid bonuses (bimini, windlass, flawless sole, new cushions, adler, new roller furling, tons of storage and tank(s)capacity, lotsa room for storage and liveaboard) and the price could not be beat. Years later we continue to enjoy the boat and have not looked back. We continue to attend boatshows and board other sailboats to which we always return to ours and repeat "pound for pound, it's tough to beat." Brett and Danielle Weaver S/V DreamWeaver
After much research and many sleepless nights on the subject, we decided on purchasing a charter boat. It was very difficult to find a boat that suited our needs and for the price available that could beat the charter boat. Aside from some cosmetic issues, which were addressed with some "elbow grease" during a couple sunny weekends, the major elements of the boat (electrical, hull, plumbing, etc.) were tiptop and also had some solid bonuses (bimini, windlass, flawless sole, new cushions, adler, new roller furling, tons of storage and tank(s)capacity, lotsa room for storage and liveaboard) and the price could not be beat. Years later we continue to enjoy the boat and have not looked back. We continue to attend boatshows and board other sailboats to which we always return to ours and repeat "pound for pound, it's tough to beat." Brett and Danielle Weaver S/V DreamWeaver
We bought number two last month
She's been a little neglected but she's coming together. Of course there's only a main and jib on her, but they are in good shape. A little dock rash to touch up as well. The little tohatsu was weather worn but fires up without delay
She's been a little neglected but she's coming together. Of course there's only a main and jib on her, but they are in good shape. A little dock rash to touch up as well. The little tohatsu was weather worn but fires up without delay
No-brainer
The 'cruiser' (#1) is an easy choice. Owned by and operated by people of a common interest. You can daysail a cruiser but it is difficult to cruise a daysailer. If the boat was 'cruised' it was outfitted and operated in a manner in which you intend to operate it. "Highway miles" are far easier on a vehicle be it a car or a boat. Most damage happens around the marina. It is a used boat so some wear and tear is to be expected. I could go on but you see where I stand on this.
The 'cruiser' (#1) is an easy choice. Owned by and operated by people of a common interest. You can daysail a cruiser but it is difficult to cruise a daysailer. If the boat was 'cruised' it was outfitted and operated in a manner in which you intend to operate it. "Highway miles" are far easier on a vehicle be it a car or a boat. Most damage happens around the marina. It is a used boat so some wear and tear is to be expected. I could go on but you see where I stand on this.
go blue
It is very simple to me, I bought a sailboat that was lovingly cared for and rarely sailed........The LOON_A_SEA is a beautiful O'Day 25, very clean, I fell for her the first day I saw her. I cleaned what little needed to be cleaned, put her in harbor, and began sailing every chance I had. After weeks of being out people started talking to me about my new love, I was told the prev owners were very nice but rarly sailed. This seemed of no consiquince until my first big wind day on the river. 20 knts SW wind on a 60 deg day was when I realized the plusses of a proven blue water or much sailed boat over a "babied" boat. Down winding on a reach I needed to jibe when the fragile main sheet traveler cam clete failed slamming the sheet car violently into the stop and blasting it into just BBs. With the main now flapping and the jib full I gave my son the tiller and I tied the main sheet off to the centerboard clete before we went into irons. Now we still need to jibe. My son handled the tiller and I pulled around the boom with waves capping the now over powered bow, we made the jibe. Taking adventage of the low in the wind we came about powered the motor and dropped the main only to find the three top slides broken........ Needless to say I did some refitting of the main car and sheets, new slides and cordage. My only conclusion can be a sailed boat is a maintained boat.
It is very simple to me, I bought a sailboat that was lovingly cared for and rarely sailed........The LOON_A_SEA is a beautiful O'Day 25, very clean, I fell for her the first day I saw her. I cleaned what little needed to be cleaned, put her in harbor, and began sailing every chance I had. After weeks of being out people started talking to me about my new love, I was told the prev owners were very nice but rarly sailed. This seemed of no consiquince until my first big wind day on the river. 20 knts SW wind on a 60 deg day was when I realized the plusses of a proven blue water or much sailed boat over a "babied" boat. Down winding on a reach I needed to jibe when the fragile main sheet traveler cam clete failed slamming the sheet car violently into the stop and blasting it into just BBs. With the main now flapping and the jib full I gave my son the tiller and I tied the main sheet off to the centerboard clete before we went into irons. Now we still need to jibe. My son handled the tiller and I pulled around the boom with waves capping the now over powered bow, we made the jibe. Taking adventage of the low in the wind we came about powered the motor and dropped the main only to find the three top slides broken........ Needless to say I did some refitting of the main car and sheets, new slides and cordage. My only conclusion can be a sailed boat is a maintained boat.
Jason and Mort
maybe so on your points. But if it was designed and outfitted by the manufacterer correctly from the beginning you wouldn't have had those issues. I guess it really depends on the boat you start with. Case in point -- You can day sail and cruise a well designed late model Tartan or Sabre pretty well (he he he
....notice I left out a benecatalunter...not to start any anything becuase they can be too) But there some "cruising boats" I don't think you could consider easily daysiled or fun and responsive if you do. i.e Island packets, West Sails, etc
maybe so on your points. But if it was designed and outfitted by the manufacterer correctly from the beginning you wouldn't have had those issues. I guess it really depends on the boat you start with. Case in point -- You can day sail and cruise a well designed late model Tartan or Sabre pretty well (he he he
....notice I left out a benecatalunter...not to start any anything becuase they can be too) But there some "cruising boats" I don't think you could consider easily daysiled or fun and responsive if you do. i.e Island packets, West Sails, etcBoat #2
I would choose the little used doctor's boat. We had the chance this past fall to pick up a used 26ft. boat found in this type of circumstance. The condition of the hull was perfect and it was a 1988 boat. Yes, there is some neglect/maintenance that needs to be done, but considering the bargain price we will be able to replace/repair things to our tastes/likings at a reasonable rate.
I would choose the little used doctor's boat. We had the chance this past fall to pick up a used 26ft. boat found in this type of circumstance. The condition of the hull was perfect and it was a 1988 boat. Yes, there is some neglect/maintenance that needs to be done, but considering the bargain price we will be able to replace/repair things to our tastes/likings at a reasonable rate.
Final results
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending March 14, 2004: In my search for a used sailboat for cruising and daysailing, I would choose: 49% The little-used boat 41% The proven bluewater cruiser 06% The ex-charter boat 04% The winning racer 1121 owners responding
Final results for the Quick Quiz ending March 14, 2004: In my search for a used sailboat for cruising and daysailing, I would choose: 49% The little-used boat 41% The proven bluewater cruiser 06% The ex-charter boat 04% The winning racer 1121 owners responding
Seldom Used
I'd go for the seldom-used boat. I know from the start that the soft stuff (lines, cushions, etc.) will have to be replaced, but I wouldn't buy unless I could get a good price, depending on condition and age.
I'd go for the seldom-used boat. I know from the start that the soft stuff (lines, cushions, etc.) will have to be replaced, but I wouldn't buy unless I could get a good price, depending on condition and age.
Looking for a New Home
'70 O'Day Javelin, sails, Load-Rite trailer -- great for kids, new sailors. If you are interested, make me an offer.
'70 O'Day Javelin, sails, Load-Rite trailer -- great for kids, new sailors. If you are interested, make me an offer.
- Status