Boat almost capsized

paphman · Sep 17, 2011

Let the main go as fast as you can. This is why I always sail with the main sheet in one of my hands. You can always tell a small boat sailor, because they all sail this way in case of a sudden gust.

Dale

Stu Jackson · Sep 17, 2011

Probably not. Remember, the further the mast goes over the less sail is exposed to the wind. It's the waves that'll get ya.

We sailed out C22 in SF Bay and had a lot of heavy weather. Single reef, and maybe the jib fairlead led aft to dump more air off the top of the jib, worked wonders. If you have a genoa, what size? A big headsail on Monterey Bay, which can kick up some, may not be the right choice of headsail. If you're not racing, a club 1110% jib should be just fine for getting around.

shipwreck66 · Sep 17, 2011

I wish I had the pic of the C22 the guy sunk during a race on my lake. He was flying a 150 genoa and had the main locked in nice and tight. Turned hard to port around the mark and over she went and down she goes, nothing but 1ft of mast poking out of the water and three wet crewman treading water. My wife only let me use the 110 with her for cruising days, told me to put the 150 under something unseen in the v-berth

Phaedrus · Sep 17, 2011

Just how far over did you go? I was out in the CA delta a couple of weeks ago and I went over so far I took water into the cockpit.

It was getting dark so I really didn't see how deep the rail went but it flooded in pretty good. I guess I was just too dumb to be scared. Was I just lucky or was that a testement to how good these boats are?

Ken · Sep 18, 2011

Old style boat? On our old style we could push it to the point the rail was under water and it would ship water into the cockpit. Anymore and it would round up long before any chance of capsizing.

However we did once suffer a complete knock down, once sails were released she popped back up, wouldn't recommend pushing the boat that far and we were NOT trying to get it knocked down. In fact it was because we had got complacent on the local lake with all it's hollows that the knock down occurred.

Slight damage to the boat when the battery became a missile once torn loose. (highly recommend upgrading the battery box if it hasn't already been addressed) Electrical panel was broken into three pieces when the battery slammed into it.

watercolors II · Sep 18, 2011

Sealed boat will not sink!

When you think it’s time to reef, it’s probably to late and becomes much more difficult. When the weather picks up and hatch boards are not in place you’re asking for additional trouble. You never know what's in a strong puff.

See attached two photos from this year.

Submerged boat is a Catalina 22, I believe the one questioned in this blog. Other is a Macgregor 26 in San Diego in which 2 people died. I believe that if the hatch boards had been in place these two boats would not look like this in these photos.

cwkemp · Sep 18, 2011

I would not want to prove this the hard way, but I believe that if my '71 were swamped it would sink quickly. It would take only enough water in the cabin to bring the waterline over the keel winch cable tube and she'd be on her way straight down, even if upright. Hatch boards in place and lazarettes secured will give me the best chance. When the chop is up where I sail, the waves are very uneven and the winds are gusty. This can be a formula for mishap even when sailing conervatively especially since I single-hand most of the time.

shipwreck66 · Sep 18, 2011

That pic doesn't fuel any love for Mac's at all. Note that the daggerboard has apparently fallen back into the hull, somewhere.

jfrench · Sep 18, 2011

If you have a 500 pound swing keel trust me, it'll fold up too if you turtle-top. If you're lucky, it'll stop when it hits the hull!

OldCat · Sep 19, 2011

Stu Jackson said:
If you're not racing, a club 1110% jib should be just fine for getting around.

1110%

Sorry, Stu, couldn't resist

As for gusts - dump the main - preferably with the vang tight so the sail does not bag out and flog. Try to dump the main under control. Uncleat, feed 2-3 feet of line. Recleat, move hand, uncleat, feed more line. This keeps line from running thru your hands. Or up over your gloves where I still have a small mark on my wrist from a boo boo

.

If going upwind, luff up in gusts, the boat will eventually flatten out. Reef or drop the main first. The boat is less likely to broach with the power moved forward. And, keep all the hatches closed when weather is about.

One season a while back, I got hit by two hard thunderstorm microbursts. The first had me looking down at a J22 mast. Grabbing handfuls of mainsail the boat righted and we reached and ran off on only the jib. The second time I got the main down faster, but that time we broached on just the jib. If the crew moves to the high side, boats this size should come back up if the waves aren't too bad. If they don't - well - a sailing instructor here sank a J22 when two overweight crew refused to move during a tack

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Practice sailing on the headsail alone. C22s do very well in heavy winds that way. If the chop is not too bad the boat will even tack. RF rolls up fast to reduce sail area, for hank on, a selection of sails including a 75% jib is a must so you can change down to something that gives you control when you get back up from the first hit. "Wisdom" is that an RF sail is only good rolled up to about 70-75% of its foot length - I think this is bs - I have rolled up past 50% with my foam luff 135 and still been able to make it upwind in flat water - albeit with a lot of lee helm. If you have sea room, you can run or reach on a pretty small head sail.

OC

OldCat · Sep 19, 2011

cwkemp said:
I would not want to prove this the hard way, but I believe that if my '71 were swamped it would sink quickly. It would take only enough water in the cabin to bring the waterline over the keel winch cable tube and she'd be on her way straight down, even if upright.

A rag, or slit rubber 'cork' stuffed into the volcano should slow water ingress enough to buy time for the cockpit to empty. No, I don't want to test this. And, my my Sport model has floatation and the larger cockpit drains. Even with factory floatation, I have considered stuffing in the useless area under the port side cockpit as well as the bow compartment with floatation. Possibly a topic for its own thread...

OC

OldCat · Sep 19, 2011

Watercolors! said:
When you think it’s time to reef, it’s probably to late and becomes much more difficult. When the weather picks up and hatch boards are not in place you’re asking for additional trouble. You never know what's in a strong puff.

See attached two photos from this year.

Submerged boat is a Catalina 22, I believe the one questioned in this blog. Other is a Macgregor 26 in San Diego in which 2 people died. I believe that if the hatch boards had been in place these two boats would not look like this in these photos.

The San Diego boat appears to have been hugely overloaded with 10 people aboard if I remember correctly. Not a way to have a sail end well:cry:.

OC

Ken · Sep 19, 2011

Old Cat brings up a very good point. If you own an Old style boat that hasn't had the Cockpit Scupper upgrade it should be at the top of the Upgrade List... The factory drains are lacking...

jfrench · Sep 19, 2011

Water bladder tanks as flotation

When I first saw flexible bladder tanks designed for cruising sailors to carry extra fresh water, I thought that they would be a good source of safety flotation. They make them in different shapes, including the shape of a "V" berth, so you can fit them almost anywhere. And when you need space instead of flotation, they can be deflated and rolled up. "Plastimo" is a brand name sold for marine use (at Marine prices), but I'll bet with some looking, a cheaper source can be located.

shipwreck66 · Sep 19, 2011

OldCat, what you were saying about RF I agree even more. This past Saturday morning was a good opportunity to practice up my reefing skills and I only need a few sq ft of the RF to maintain control much like a rudder up there.

paphman · Sep 20, 2011

Littlescoop, we sail on Lake Ontario and the waves and wind can sometimes be "exciting". We have headsails from 50% to a 150% drifter. In the course of the sailing seasom we use them all. As Stu said, the waves will get you before the wind will. You can be out in some very strong wind and be fine with the correct sail plan, but when the waves get to large, you can have a real problem. If you don't know how to reef, learn that now. The C-22 will take alot, but the captain still has to make good decisions. If you want your wife to sail with you, she has to know that you will get her back to the dock safe and sound. You will read about someone in a C-22 that will sail in winds over 25 kts, with no reef and the 150 up and tell you they had a great time. That may be true, but not with me on board. That is the type of captain you want to run from. Remember that the safty of everyone on board is the sole concern of the captain. Have fun and be safe.

Dale

Solace of Freedom · Sep 21, 2011

IMO the C-22 swing keel is tender, it heels easily. It is likely do to it's flat-ish bottom and light keel (that would do it). If you are heeling over that much, let's say dangerously heeled, I'd turn in to the wind. And, she'll straighten right up. There is a method called feathering where you turn into the wind, but not enough to lose the wind from your sails. But, it reduces heeling. My wife does not swim & was never on a small boat until she met me. I took her out Sat. and there was more wind than I expected. I already had the main reefed and we were heeling over pretty good. She just gave me a look and didn't say a word. The 1st thing I do is drop the traveler to leeward, then let out the main as far as you need to. The main is responsible for most of your heel. I have a RF headsail so that's easy enough to reduce. You shouldn't have to drop either sail for gust control.

Boat almost capsized

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